U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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barbk said:
Eh...no reason to believe that Ashley would have not blown it again, just like she did in three successive pre-Olympics National Championships, or just as the queen of underrotations.
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I don't know what your point is or which part of my previous post you are referring to. She was horrible at 2014 Nationals and then skated very well in Sochi. I think the USFS made the bet to ditch her in PCS to favour Karen for the team.
 
Marco said:
I don't know what your point is or which part of my previous post you are referring to. She was horrible at 2014 Nationals and then skated very well in Sochi. I think the USFS made the bet to ditch her in PCS to favour Karen for the team.
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Claiming Ashley as any model of consistency when she blew it at 2010, 2014 and 2018 Nationals (in each case the Nationals leading up to Olympic selection) shouldn't give anyone the idea that she is some kind of clutch skater. She might have done better than Karen at the Olympics, and she might have had one of her meltdowns or underrotation fests. At Worlds last year she was 7th in the short and 10th in the free. Unlikely that she would have been a contender for the podium or close to it at the Olympics.
 
barbk said:
Claiming Ashley as any model of consistency when she blew it at 2010, 2014 and 2018 Nationals (in each case the Nationals leading up to Olympic selection) shouldn't give anyone the idea that she is some kind of clutch skater. She might have done better than Karen at the Olympics, and she might have had one of her meltdowns or underrotation fests. At Worlds last year she was 7th in the short and 10th in the free. Unlikely that she would have been a contender for the podium or close to it at the Olympics.
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I don't think (and didn't claim) she is a model of consistency but I do think in general she is more reliable than Karen. She messed up all 3 pre-Olympic Nationals but just one place short. 2014 Nationals aside, she doesn't quite implode, and not more than once a season. She hasn't placed below 7th in an event in some years.

When Karen is on and the caller is nice, she can light up the scoreboard for sure, but when she isn't on or a stricter caller shows up, she sinks quite low, as evident in her GPs and 4CCs outings. Her only really strong international outing was really just 2017 Worlds.

Look, no one knows what would have happened if Ashley had been on the team instead of Karen, I am just saying that USFS betting for the "on" Karen to show up didn't work. An "on" Karen would score more than an "on" Ashley, but IMO the odds of Ashley being "on" or "not imploding" is higher.
 
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ToFarAwayTimes said:
Who cares, neither of them were going to come anywhere close to the podium. Ashley had some bizarre moments all season and mailed in her nationals skate. She's had her time. They gave Karen her chance and I think it was the right decision.
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Preferring Karen was right from a developmental perspective. But the O Team as it was consisted of either wildly inconsistent members (Mirai and Karen) or inexperienced member (Bradie) only.

If the objective was to medal, then you are right it didn't matter. But if the objective was to achieve a good placement for Team USA, then I think I would feel more comfortable having Ashley on the team.
 
...except - no choice of thee of the four was likely to achieve "a good placement for team USA" given the competition. Even if Bradie had skated clean I'd be surprised if she'd placed higher than 6th/7th in the Olympic field. If Nathan had finished 4th at Nationals then there was a clear and convincing case to include him on the team as he was likely to achieve a good result. (Well, in the end, not as good as they hoped, but a good result overall.) Same for Adam. It is harder to make that case for Ashley. I just don't see that there was any compelling reason to jump her over the medalists at Nationals. Ashley controlled her own fate. If she'd been on the podium the decision would have been made. If she goes to Worlds, I hope she has a great performance.
 
ToFarAwayTimes said:
Who cares, neither of them were going to come anywhere close to the podium. Ashley had some bizarre moments all season and mailed in her nationals skate. She's had her time. They gave Karen her chance and I think it was the right decision.
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I think Ashley did really well at nationals...as good as if not better than Karen anyway. The issue was Ashley waited too late to put effort into making the team. I do think she felt she was a lock for the team until SA when Bradie showed up. At that point she realized she was in trouble. I think had she gone with the new FS all season and had a better showing at SA that she would have gotten the nod over Karen and would have made the team.

Up until nationals, Ashley's entire approach to the season was a bit lazy...and this is coming from a huge Ashley fan. Going with MR for the 3rd time in 4 years was a massive mistake and the fact she was having issues with the jumps didn't help. By the time nationals rolled around, Bradie was the poster child and Ashley would have to majorly impress to get on the team. She gave a trademark Ashley skate and this year they decided it wasn't enough. Karen got the nod and the rest is history.

barbk said:
Even if Bradie had skated clean I'd be surprised if she'd placed higher than 6th/7th in the Olympic field.
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I think at best Bradie may have placed 7th, somewhere right around 200 points. Dabin Choi (7th) scored 199+ and Maria Sotskova (8th) 198+. I seriously doubt she'd have caught Kaori (6th) who scored 209+. Even with the errors Bradie broke the 190s which is really good. I'm hoping someone works with her in the off-season on her packaging. The Cinderella thing is cute but at 20 years old, the time for being cute ended about 5 years ago.

teacakes said:
Ting Cui jumping like a Russian: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bfv3go7HBhj/?taken-by=itscoachvincent
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Ting is pretty amazing. She's definitely a capable jumper but she's going to have to learn to compete. She wasn't that impressive at her JGP event last season. I'm hoping the added experience will work in her favor next season. Ting has the kind of fire power needed to compete with the Russians but she needs to be able to compete like the Russians...
 
Tough post below, but I kind of agree.
I think nerves and emotions got the best of the US skaters except for Adam and Shibs Sibs. Realistically, the US women wouldn't have medalled anyway, but it would have been nice to see a female American skater in the final group and higher placements like the US men. This quad was a wake-up call for our singles skaters. We need to work on jumps, consistency and skating skills (that is a lot).
At least Mirai smiled more during the FS.
ToFarAwayTimes said:
Karen--I like her so I don't want to pile on. I'm kind of angry she didn't get top 10. She deserved to be scored higher than Bradie and Mirai. There's so much to like about her, but the jumps are not consistent enough to be relied upon. Where to go from here?

Bradie--Johnny called her 'provincial' during the broadcast. That's kind or harsh, I don't know which. But she's 20 years old and she was wearing a junior costume skating to Cinderella. I couldn't stand to watch. If she continues to be on the U.S. scene in the coming years, I hope she improves her packaging a great deal and then I will take another look and give her a fair chance.

Mirai--I admired her guts in the SP. She mailed in the FS. To a point it's understandable, she wasn't going to medal anymore anyway and the competitive portion of her Olympic career was over. Sometimes it's hard to keep that fire when you've already accomplished everything you are going to accomplish and the end is near. It's not like if she had skated well it would have affected Team USA anyway.
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kwanatic said:
She wasn't that impressive at her JGP event last season.
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Ting's JGP event was this season. She was second in novices last year. She did pretty well to earn a spot on the JGP, and she did pretty well on it--seeing as how she bested the then Junior National Champion in the SP there. Now she has qualified for Junior Worlds over all of those ladies except for Starr.

Ting does need more experience competing internationally, and she seems to need work on her spins & performance. She didn't do all she could at Nationals. And she could have. Totally nailed that triple triple combo in the warm up before missing it in the SP. But Ting also came roaring back and scored within half a point of Alyssa Liu in the free skate and besting her on TES. Ting clawed her way up from 11th place to third overall with that FS.

Which is not a bad sign for a competitor.

I stumbled upon some nice, clear footage of Ting's, Alyssa's, & Pooja's Junior Nationals Free Skates this week. It's quite likely they were posted earlier, but I hadn't seen them myself so for anyone else who missed them:

Alyssa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGBGDkkh7xU
Pooja: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RadTGfgM2OM
Ting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l82z8sGt2So

There are also links from those pages to performances by the other girls, like Hannah, from Junior Nationals. All the junior girls still have plenty to learn, but it was nice to see the top three lay down such solid free skates.
 
MIsty Blades/Skate Mom said:
Tough post below, but I kind of agree.
I think nerves and emotions got the best of the US skaters except for Adam and Shibs Sibs. Realistically, the US women wouldn't have medalled anyway, but it would have been nice to see a female American skater in the final group and higher placements like the US men. This quad was a wake-up call for our singles skaters. We need to work on jumps, consistency and skating skills (that is a lot).
At least Mirai smiled more during the FS.
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I think it is important to also recognize that Adam strategy to gain more points was to water down his tech content. That is a valid approach. It is the same as deciding that putting all your jumps in the second half is your strategy to gain points, or a lady going for a 3A is a valid strategy for gaining points.

It is also important to note that Adam ended up in 10th place. The same as Mirai, and one place below Bradie. So while Adam was apparently able to control his nerves, it really didn’t give him anything more results wise than the ladies got.
 
mag said:
I think it is important to also recognize that Adam strategy to gain more points was to water down his tech content.
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Rippon's watered-down technical content was largely due to injuries that prevented him from doing moves he had been doing. That's not "strategy" except insofar as self-preservation is a strategy.
 
Vagabond said:
Rippon's watered-down technical content was largely due to injuries that prevented him from doing moves he had been doing. That's not "strategy" except insofar as self-preservation is a strategy.
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It was still his strategy. I am not saying it was wrong; clearly he was happy with it. I am simply pointing out that the general “we” around here seem to be fine with some Skaters strategizing but not others. I was also pointing out that putting Adam in the same category as the bronze medal Shibs, when he placed in basically the same place as the maligned ladies seems odd.
 
mag said:
It was still his strategy. I am not saying it was wrong; clearly he was happy with it. I am simply pointing out that the general “we” around here seem to be fine with some Skaters strategizing but not others. I was also pointing out that putting Adam in the same category as the bronze medal Shibs, when he placed in basically the same place as the maligned ladies seems odd.
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I would say the reason Rippon isn't as criticized as the Ladies is because he wasn't really expected to meda, was he? Chen was the big medal hope. Rippon actually skated very well but the Men's field was extremely tough, and no quad means finishing tenth. The American Ladies have always been close to the podium. Mirai finished 4th in Vancouver, Rachel was 7th. and Gracie was 4th in Sochi, Ashley was 7th. The USA always hypes up their Ladies (not unlike Canada with their Men, though we didn't really do it this time). This time, not only were they not only off the podium but almost out of the Top Ten. It's a harsh reality
 
Dobre said:
Ting's JGP event was this season. She was second in novices last year. She did pretty well to earn a spot on the JGP, and she did pretty well on it--seeing as how she bested the then Junior National Champion in the SP there. Now she has qualified for Junior Worlds over all of those ladies except for Starr.

Ting does need more experience competing internationally, and she seems to need work on her spins & performance. She didn't do all she could at Nationals. And she could have. Totally nailed that triple triple combo in the warm up before missing it in the SP. But Ting also came roaring back and scored within half a point of Alyssa Liu in the free skate and besting her on TES. Ting clawed her way up from 11th place to third overall with that FS.

Which is not a bad sign for a competitor.

I stumbled upon some nice, clear footage of Ting's, Alyssa's, & Pooja's Junior Nationals Free Skates this week. It's quite likely they were posted earlier, but I hadn't seen them myself so for anyone else who missed them:

Alyssa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGBGDkkh7xU
Pooja: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RadTGfgM2OM
Ting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l82z8sGt2So

There are also links from those pages to performances by the other girls, like Hannah, from Junior Nationals. All the junior girls still have plenty to learn, but it was nice to see the top three lay down such solid free skates.
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I said last season but meant this season...juniors compete so early in the season and it was last year but still this current season...meh, it's all confusing. I remember she was 6th in JGP Brisbane last year, but this current season ;)

I watched junior nationals and I was impressed with the medalists. I definitely thing Ting stands out as one to watch. Liu was great but I'm a bit wary of her jumps. She's tiny and a lot of her technique seems to be based on her fast rotations. I'm not sure how that's going to hold up when she grows. Pooja was so lovely to watch but I don't know that she has the fire power to be competitive with the Russians.

Ting can definitely make a mark but she'll have to find that consistency. The thing that makes the Russians so tough to beat is the fact that they bring not only the difficulty but the consistency as well. It's a quality the US girls/women will have to develop if they want to have a chance at beating any of them...
 
Marco said:
Preferring Karen was right from a developmental perspective. But the O Team as it was consisted of either wildly inconsistent members (Mirai and Karen) or inexperienced member (Bradie) only.

If the objective was to medal, then you are right it didn't matter. But if the objective was to achieve a good placement for Team USA, then I think I would feel more comfortable having Ashley on the team.
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Not after her performance at 2017 Worlds. If this was the year after 2016 Worlds, she would have been viewed differently. Unfortunately she did not return to that level of performance.
 
ToFarAwayTimes said:
Given the small sample size we have in 2014 and 2018, there are instances of skaters skating well in both team and individual events, skaters skating poorly in both events, and everything in between.

I don't think there is any correlation, only hindsight and selection bias.
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And then there is Adam!
 
ToFarAwayTimes said:
There is always hype about the U.S. ladies. I think if you watch in the U.K. they even hype their British skaters probably. Doesn't mean much.
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Agreed. That's all media. Obviously you're in the US so the US media is going to focus on its athletes. I was LOLing at the fact that Bradie, Karen and Mirai were included in the conversation of medals at this event. Had either of them skated perfectly they still wouldn't have come within 20 points of the podium here. It was a forgone conclusion prior to the start of the competition that short of all 3 Russians, Kaetlyn, both Japanese and Carolina coming down with food poisoning, there was no way any of them were coming close to an individual medal.
 
kwanatic said:
Ting is pretty amazing. She's definitely a capable jumper but she's going to have to learn to compete. She wasn't that impressive at her JGP event last season. I'm hoping the added experience will work in her favor next season. Ting has the kind of fire power needed to compete with the Russians but she needs to be able to compete like the Russians...
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Dobre said:
Ting does need more experience competing internationally, and she seems to need work on her spins & performance.
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Ting is a great skater and a great kid. She is progressing well for her level. With this being her first JW (and only 1 JGP before), just having the experience will be an accomplishment and a foundation to build on. With the strong Russian, Japanese and Korean skaters, a top 10 finish for both Ting and Emmy is a reasonable expectation, top 6 would be amazing.
 
Yikes! :drama: Considering the current temperament of this thread, maybe a clean slate of competitors is in order for the upcoming quad? New faces, new dramas?! :saint: The skaters being lambasted *cough* I mean 'discussed' may not even be relevant in 4 years. :slinkaway You never know.
 
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kwanatic said:
Agreed. That's all media. Obviously you're in the US so the US media is going to focus on its athletes. I was LOLing at the fact that Bradie, Karen and Mirai were included in the conversation of medals at this event. Had either of them skated perfectly they still wouldn't have come within 20 points of the podium here. It was a forgone conclusion prior to the start of the competition that short of all 3 Russians, Kaetlyn, both Japanese and Carolina coming down with food poisoning, there was no way any of them were coming close to an individual medal.
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The truth.
 
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Mayra said:
https://twitter.com/mirai_nagasu/status/968891097572245504

From Mirai:


I know the Oscars are a good 2-3 weeks before Worlds, but with all post Olympic press and whirlwind, I'm wondering if Ashley has been training as an alternate. :shuffle:
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Hmm...in 2014, the Oscars (which Wagner attended) were held three weeks and a day before the first day of the World Championships. This year, they'll take place two weeks and one day before the start of Worlds. :COP: I don't know enough about skating to know whether one week more or less makes much of a difference at this point in the season. If it does become a matter of sending an alternate, my guess (FWLIW) is that Mariah Bell would end up being the third US lady in Milan.
 
vesperholly said:
Sure, but one could equally argue that those skaters have already peaked at Nationals and cannot reproduce the same results again in a month.

If you look at the US's recent singles Olympic champions (Lysacek, Hughes, Lipinski), none of them did particularly well at Nationals before the Olympics. Lysacek was a distant second (21 points back) to Abbott in 2010, Hughes was 3rd in 2002 and Lipinski fell in the SP and ended up 2nd in 1998.
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also, there's this vibe of skaters having to "prove" themselves at nats that often does them in. Debi, Kristi and Kwan both times went into their pre-Oly nats with this pressure to prove they were ready and worthy. All peaked at nats and did worse at Olys. I think it's part of what did Ashley in all 3 times. The idea of using pre Oly nats as an unofficial/ official team selection seems to only work if you're interested in seeing great performances at nats.
 
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