Should Medvedeva have won the Olympics ?

[ToFarAwayTimes]

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/2018-pyeongchang-olympics-ladies-fs-janny-get-your-jumps-or-it’ll-all-be-zagitova.103464/page-76#post-5312804

Medvedeva has poor technique and I'm surprised it never let her down in competition. That shows she is tough and a fighter, good for her. But I don't know whether it was that or her injury, but she really had to muscle out those jumps the other night even more than usual. The quality was adequate to receive the base value or a little above, but nothing more.

 

[Japanfan]

These components scores are a sham. They are inflated placeholders meant to maintain and disguise ordinal judging. Until figure skating fixes this problem, the artistry will continue to disappear, and so will the fans, the ratings, and the money.

I don't think the artistry will disappear, not among those skaters who are artistic and musical to start off with. That is always been the way of it, and always will. Try as the ISU may, it will not be able to destroy the beauty of it all.

 

[Japanfan]

I think one pattern we are seeing with the judges and as skating fans we need to get used to is in the Olympics, in singles disciplines that is, the judges have already decided they automatically want the skater attempting the highest base value in the LP to win.

Is that true for dance as well?

I'm not sure what the base value of V/M versus P/C was, but when the judges gave P/C that monster score in the free program, I thought they clearly signaled that they wanted P/C to win. I don't have a problem with this particularly, as there have always been some 'winning' Olympic programs versus programs that were less Olympic worthy IMO (i.e T/M rock-n-roll free program in polka dots). I wish it wasn't this way, and it may not be fair, but I think that is just the way it is. For example, I think Zoueva gave V/M the winning FD in 2010 and D/W the winning one in 2014. It would be understandable that she wanted an Olympic title for each of her teams.

I'm still in shock that V/M managed to eke out the win in dance. Some may attribute that their win to the costume malfunction, but in my mind, it was because V/M delivered their free with such perfection, conviction and commitment that the judges had to give them a score not too far below the French - which was just barely enough to give them the win.

I believe that judges may be equally responsive when other skaters deliver exceptional performances.

As to Med and Zags, I don't really care for them. But if they earn points based on the rules and skate clean or close to clean, it is hard for anyone else to touch them.

 

[briancoogaert]

Is that true for dance as well?

I'm not sure what the base value of V/M versus P/C was, but when the judges gave P/C that monster score in the free program, I thought they clearly signaled that they wanted P/C to win. I don't have a problem with this particularly, as there have always been some 'winning' Olympic programs versus programs that were less Olympic worthy IMO (i.e T/M rock-n-roll free program in polka dots). I wish it wasn't this way, and it may not be fair, but I think that is just the way it is. For example, I think Zoueva gave V/M the winning FD in 2010 and D/W the winning one in 2014. It would be understandable that she wanted an Olympic title for each of her teams.

I'm still in shock that V/M managed to eke out the win in dance. Some may attribute that their win to the costume malfunction, but in my mind, it was because V/M delivered their free with such perfection, conviction and commitment that the judges had to give them a score not too far below the French - which was just barely enough to give them the win.

I believe that judges may be equally responsive when other skaters deliver exceptional performances.

As to Med and Zags, I don't really care for them. But if they earn points based on the rules and skate clean or close to clean, it is hard for anyone else to touch them.

Clearly not when judges knew there was more than 1 point difference in the SD and they gave the exact same score to V&M in the FD. Judges gave P&C a World record but V&M beat their own record in the SD and FD by a lot more points. That is the sign that they clearly wanted V&M to win, IMO.
Anyway, when it's just about 0.79, I doubt judges knew what they did, it's impossible to say which team was better... I think a lot of judges didn't want to choose. lol

 

[judgejudy27]

No IMO it doesn't apply to ice dance since a)ice dancers aren't doing tricks, b)it is quite possible and realistic for 5 or more teams to earn all level 4s and have the exact same base value anyway.

 

[ballettmaus]

Then I would say Zag won via missapplication of the current rules.

I don't think it was misapplication. Yes, the intention was to stop the front-loading and space out the jumps evenly. But as far as I know, there is no actual rule against either front or back-loading and in that case, intentions are just what someone is thinking should happen.

While I think a back-loaded program is just as bad as a front-loaded program, I can't really fault Zag for maximizing her TES. But I do fault the judges as a back-loaded program should be reflected in the PCS and should not get high marks for choreography.

 

[Rock2]

Missaplication of the rules? And Lysacek won over Pluschenko by clever use of the rules?

I always love how when you challenge something, people don't address your challenge directly as having merit or not. They try to deflect into someting else completely.

It's like talking to Trump fans. You call out his specific misgivings and they can't really argue, so the answer starts with "yeah, but Hillary....."

Yes, I would contend/agree there are many results that you can call into question in competitions throughout history. I'd like to see more judging based on the rulebook as it stands and based on what happens on the ice that day. If we don't like the rules, I'm up for changes.
Need more accuracy and authenticity in the scoring for the sake of the integrity and growth of the sport.

 

[Rock2]

I don't think it was misapplication. Yes, the intention was to stop the front-loading and space out the jumps evenly. But as far as I know, there is no actual rule against either front or back-loading and in that case, intentions are just what someone is thinking should happen.

I think that's covered in the CH mark under program design in two sections

A. PROPORTION. Equal weighting of all parts of program in how the elements and choreography are composed
B. PATTERN AND ICE COVERAGE. Making sure you're covering ice throughout the program and innovating your patterns of movement (like, if you traced where their program goes and looked at the tracing at the end of the program). What does it look like overall and how does front half compare to back half.

On part B, if you trace her ice coverage (I did this in 2016 someplace comparing Gold and Med but lost my sheets someplace. Very telling) the program sort of turns on itself in the second half. Very little ice coverage and stops reaching out to the boards altogether as she races from jump to jump to fit them all in. Speed, ice coverage, choreo, transitions (outside of the occasional arm movement) = gone. I compare it to water circling a drain as it empties. Inertia of the program layout pulls everything toward the center of the ice.

I laughed at an Olympic fluff piece where Nathan Chen explained why he didn't put more jumps in his back half. He made this exact point. Speed and choreo go out the window as you skate in a relatively small circle to get the jumps in. Terrible impact on the program at large.

I expect over the summer there will be a movement within the ISU to bring clarity to the objective of a well-balanced program and penalize PCS for imbalanced distribution of elements and movement.

 

[Coquelicot14]

Not entirely related but ..... Have some respect, they are Olympic gold and silver medalists. They are not Med and Zags, they are Zagitova and Medvedeva.
I don't see anyone calling Wagner - Wags.
And while this irks me on fan level, I can understand somewhat, the so-called journalists, like Brenan doing so on her twitter account is pure disrespect.
End of rant.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Hmm I was thinking Osmond should have.... like 100%

Just saying.

If her name had been Katya Osmondova I think she would have.

tee-hee... Thanks to the person who created that.

Osmond brought me to the ballet. Zag brought me to an unbalanced, frantic program of no interpretation and Medev brought me to the usual over the top orgasmic, or an actress acting performance. She has the same acting style for all performances. With Osmond I get versatility - Edith, Russian Ballets, Italian power pieces.

Osmond... huge jumps.... Zag and Medev small with arms over the head and 0% flowout. I actually give Tech and PCS to Osmond, and no Im not Canadian.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

Not entirely related but ..... Have some respect, they are Olympic gold and silver medalists. They are not Med and Zags, they are Zagitova and Medvedeva.
I don't see anyone calling Wagner - Wags.

When I first saw people using the nick name "Med" on this web sight, I was confused! But now that I understand it, I agree that it is highly disrespectful. Any name other than Evgenia Medvedevia should not be used.

As far as who should of won the Olympics, my wife and I both preferred the young girl who actually won. The one with the too-too dresses.

 

[Rock2]

Not entirely related but ..... Have some respect, they are Olympic gold and silver medalists. They are not Med and Zags, they are Zagitova and Medvedeva.
I don't see anyone calling Wagner - Wags.
And while this irks me on fan level, I can understand somewhat, the so-called journalists, like Brenan doing so on her twitter account is pure disrespect.
End of rant.

Rant heard....internalized....aaaaaand ignored. Sorry.

We constantly see names and words shortened for the sake of typing economy. Some call Wagner by Ash, we shorten pairs and dance couples to D/R, S/M, V/M, V/T, etc.
Plushenko becomes Plushy, Meagan becomes Meg, Yuzuru becomes Yuzu. Familiarization of especially longer names into one syllable is super common. As long as we're not shortening them to swear words or something, it's fine as far as respect goes.

We live in a LOL, BTW, IIRC and IMHO world. This is the 21st century. Feel free to join us at your leisure.

 

[Meoima]

Hmm I was thinking Osmond should have.... like 100%

Just saying.

If her name had been Katya Osmondova I think she would have.

tee-hee... Thanks to the person who created that.

Osmond brought me to the ballet. Zag brought me to an unbalanced, frantic program of no interpretation and Medev brought me to the usual over the top orgasmic, or an actress acting performance. She has the same acting style for all performances. With Osmond I get versatility - Edith, Russian Ballets, Italian power pieces.

Osmond... huge jumps.... Zag and Medev small with arms over the head and 0% flowout. I actually give Tech and PCS to Osmond, and no Im not Canadian.

Osmond has huge jumps but transitions none.

 

[hanca]

I always love how when you challenge something, people don't address your challenge directly as having merit or not. They try to deflect into someting else completely.

It's like talking to Trump fans. You call out his specific misgivings and they can't really argue, so the answer starts with "yeah, but Hillary....."

Yes, I would contend/agree there are many results that you can call into question in competitions throughout history. I'd like to see more judging based on the rulebook as it stands and based on what happens on the ice that day. If we don't like the rules, I'm up for changes.
Need more accuracy and authenticity in the scoring for the sake of the integrity and growth of the sport.

This is not deflecting. It is showing you that there seem to be double standards. If someone has done it from certain countries, no one even mentions it, but if the same strategy is used by people from other countries, it suddenly appears to be a problem. Tell me, why it was not raised as a problem when Lysacek did it? I am genuinely curious. Why is it a problem only now, when the Russians do it?

 

[honey]

Osmond has huge jumps but transitions none.

I keep seeing this myth repeated in various places and I am every time I read it. Should I break them down, for the record?

SP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T, counter out of it
• Spread eagle directly into the flying spin
• Ina bauer into the 2A, 3turn/bracket/loop out of it, which is connected directly into the lay back without putting the foot down

LP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T
• 2A+3T landing edge directly into a hop, timed to the music
• 3Z steps into it and 3 turn into attitude then another 3 turn directly into the flying sit (yes, I realize she did not do this at the olympics due to the step out)
• 3L has running 3 turns into it and a rocker out of it
• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F
  
• Ina bauer before the 3S

And this list does not include all the small things she has woven into the program that I would count as transitional as well, like the spread eagle around the corner before the 3L in the long. It is absolutely laughable to claim Osmond has no transitions.

 

[t.mann]

If judges had wanted to give Zag gold over Med, they would have given Zag's LP 158~160 points which were Zag's team event score(158)~Med's WR score(160). But they scored just 156, leaving room for the last skater Med. Differently from what Sochi judges gave Sot's LP 149 points which were between Kim's 13Worlds score(148)~Kim's WR score(150), not leaving room for the last skater Kim(144 at Sochi).

 

[Meoima]

I keep seeing this myth repeated in various places and I am every time I read it. Should I break them down, for the record?

SP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T, counter out of it
• Spread eagle directly into the flying spin
• Ina bauer into the 2A, 3turn/bracket/loop out of it, which is connected directly into the lay back without putting the foot down

LP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T
• 2A+3T landing edge directly into a hop, timed to the music
• 3Z steps into it and 3 turn into attitude then another 3 turn directly into the flying sit (yes, I realize she did not do this at the olympics due to the step out)
• 3L has running 3 turns into it and a rocker out of it
• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F
  
• Ina bauer before the 3S

And this list does not include all the small things she has woven into the program that I would count as transitional as well, like the spread eagle around the corner before the 3L in the long. It is absolutely laughable to claim Osmond has no transitions.

I’d say those moves are not more complicated than the Russians
Compared to Eteri girls, Osmond did more 2 foot skating, more crossovers than them. What do I say... her programs are quite emptier compared to the Russian? I didn’t say packed programs are better but certainly the busier they look the more judges prefer.

 

[IceAlisa]

My mom watched the top 4. Her credentials include decades of study of classical piano and a decade of ballet. She admired Zags' jumps, loved Katya's jumps more and also her swan and was horrified by Med's dress, how busy it was. She didn't like her Anna Karenina and thought her jumps were labored and landed with a thud and no flow. She would have had Katya-Zags-Med.

 

[judgejudy27]

I agree Osmond has less difficult choreography, but I think Zagitova imparticular almost has too many transitions and it makes things look a bit sloppy. Medvedeva has a nice medium between the two. It is an interesting contrast and dilemna from the judges.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

The correct results were

Osmond
Medvedeva
Miyahara
Zaigtova
Sakamoto
Sotskova (so under-ranked!)
Choi
Bradie/Kostner tie

 

[IceAlisa]

The correct results were

Osmond
Medvedeva
Miyahara
Zaigtova
Sakamoto
Sotskova (so under-ranked!)
Choi
Bradie/Kostner tie

Except I wouldn't have Bradie anywhere near Kostner

 

[bardtoob]

The correct results were

Osmond
Medvedeva
Miyahara
Zaigtova
Sakamoto
Sotskova (so under-ranked!)
Choi
Bradie/Kostner tie

Interesting rankings.

 

[Wyliefan]

her jumps were labored and landed with a thud and no flow.

That's exactly what I've been saying since the injury, although I thought her jumps were somewhat better in the long program than in the short. I hope this is something she can overcome with time and practice.

 

[DELTA]

LOL at people putting Osmond 1st. She has zero appeal to me.

 

[vesperholly]

Osmond had better jumps and speed than both but didn't get better marks for that. Anyway, she made mistakes.

One mistake, a very controlled step-out from the 3lutz - and barely that, as she just didn't hold the landing and stepped forward. She got hammered for it, almost straight -2 GOE across the board (harsh).

Osmond, on the other hand, landed five of her seven jumping passes about as perfectly, and by ISU definition, +3-worthy as you're ever going to see. Her program was also just as, if not more, complete and she's a quality skater.

Kaetlyn stepped out of the lutz, but that was it. Rest of her jumps were perfection. Sure, she "should" move more of them to the second half to get more points, but she rarely even puts together a FS where she lands all her jumps. I think a 2/5 layout would be asking too much.

Alina's PCS were ludicrously high for occasionally throwing up her hand on the beat of the music.

My other main complaint was Satoko's ludicrously low PCS. 71? Feck off with that.

 

[Jebrista]

To me, Alina's first lutz deserved -1 for the clear hesitation and aborting of the planned combination. That would have been enough I think to have put Medvedeva in first overall.

And also, Alina's components in the short were way overscored (not to mention that it was the worst cut of music. It was extremely clear where the cuts were based on the abrupt changes).

 

[Polaris]

To me, Alina's first lutz deserved -1 for the clear hesitation and aborting of the planned combination. That would have been enough I think to have put Medvedeva in first overall.

I feel like she deserved +5 for adding the loop back in flawlessly later on, and to the beat of the music too!

 

[lala]

After ECH Plushenko knew Zagitova will win.
http://www.sport-express.ru/olympic...skryvayu-sekrety-kolonka-plyuschenko-1377142/

He thinks Zagitova has better technic, harder programs her victory is deserved. Interesting detail they have got a bet: Plushenko bet to Alina but his wife, Ari Zakarian'( his agent) and Maxim Kovtun!!!! ( what can we not know? )bet to Zhenya.

 

[briancoogaert]

To me, Alina's first lutz deserved -1 for the clear hesitation and aborting of the planned combination. That would have been enough I think to have put Medvedeva in first overall.

And also, Alina's components in the short were way overscored (not to mention that it was the worst cut of music. It was extremely clear where the cuts were based on the abrupt changes).

And Medvedeva should have received an edge called with -GOE for her Flutz. So, that compensates !

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I keep seeing this myth repeated in various places and I am every time I read it. Should I break them down, for the record?

SP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T, counter out of it
• Spread eagle directly into the flying spin
• Ina bauer into the 2A, 3turn/bracket/loop out of it, which is connected directly into the lay back without putting the foot down

LP

• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F+3T
• 2A+3T landing edge directly into a hop, timed to the music
• 3Z steps into it and 3 turn into attitude then another 3 turn directly into the flying sit (yes, I realize she did not do this at the olympics due to the step out)
• 3L has running 3 turns into it and a rocker out of it
• Mohawk/3turn/mohawk into the 3F
  
• Ina bauer before the 3S

And this list does not include all the small things she has woven into the program that I would count as transitional as well, like the spread eagle around the corner before the 3L in the long. It is absolutely laughable to claim Osmond has no transitions.

THANK YOU SISTERRRR..NO ONE is gonna get an OLY or World medal with as that other person said NO transitions. lol