ISU floats possible changes to judging system

[Meoima]

Nor does the ISU seem willing to appropriately address what the actual problems are. They speak about 'radical' changes like they are trying to wave a magic wand. But they are waving the wrong wand and they are focusing on making wrong and ineffectual changes to points values that will likely lead to more problems. Obviously, program length should not be shortened, nor is there a need to reduce the value of triple jumps. The problem in the men's division is the huge disparity in the point values given to quads, not the point values given to triples.

Shorter programs might be rooted from the need to reduce the length of competition for broadcasters. I suspect they have no reason truly related to the quality of skating.

I've questioned before why the ISU doesn't make an effort to seek outside experts from other fields who might bring some fresh ideas and perspectives to actually focus on what the real problems are. I'd start with convening judges from diving and gymnastics, former top level skaters, as well as movement specialists, choreographers and artistic directors from the dance world.

Money...
And the politic side of the sport does not like coherent adjustment. Because by then they have less change to manipulate the scores and their influence will be reduced.

You may as well leave off with the incessant refrain and tired excuse that 'judges are volunteers who are not paid.' So what! Get people who are passionate about the sport who don't mind not being paid but who are eager to learn how to do a good job for the right reasons: to benefit the sport and adequately reward the skaters. Egads and enuf already! Stay a measly backward Mom/Pop sport then with a perpetually lame and corrupt scoring system! Stop with all the pretensions and the whack justifications for ineptitude.

I doubt that we can have good judging as long as the judges are still freelancers. Yes we really need people third party who do not have conflict of interest when it comes to competition. But again, money?

And once and for all, get rid of those useless high overhead camera angles already!!! *Use a split screen when going in for closeups! We need to see skaters entire bodies at all times in order to fully enjoy their performances! And please stop with the bad camera angles!

(*At Worlds, they completely botched coverage of Savchenko/Massot's sp by switching to a high overhead camera shot just before an important move that was a highlight of their performance, but could not be enjoyed by viewers because it could not be fully seen! )

Do we know if the people who arrange camera works are from ISU themselves or from the host countries?

 

[aftershocks]

a quad from difficult steps. Yuzu, Patrick, and Javier all do them.

If that's the case, please provide links to the evidence so we can compare whether the steps are actually difficult and whether these guys perform difficult steps into every quad jump. I'd like to make sure we don't just paint Ade as advocating only for her high profile skater with her comments.

And in any case, I can also point out something Orser said which clearly paints him as being a bit anxious about roping into control these young guns throwing quads right and left with great ease and abandon.

"I see where they are going with this," Orser said. "They want the greatest all-around skater to be champion, not just the guy who did the quad flip and quad lutz and racked up points that way."

Sure Brian. And what about when Hanyu and Javi had subpar performances and still racked up huge points!? Weren't you exhaling, smiling and nodding your head in relief at such times in the kiss 'n cry?

 

[aftershocks]

Shorter programs might be rooted from the need to reduce the length of competition for broadcasters. I suspect they have no reason truly related to the quality of skating.

I already noted that's their intention in an earlier post, so you are only repeating what I already said in this case.

Money...
And the politic side of the sport does not like coherent adjustment. Because by then they have less change to manipulate the scores and their influence will be reduced.

Money is always a factor in every endeavor. Real, effective and beneficial change does not come about through blaming lack of revenue and resources to assist in effectuating change. As I said, excuses, excuses. And those who are happy only when their fave skaters are winning rather than looking at what might benefit the sport as a whole, are sadly happy for the wrong reason.

Do we know if the people who arrange camera works are from ISU themselves or from the host countries?

In this instance, when I say 'they,' I am referring to broadcasters, and especially to sports editors and producers who direct the camera operators. The ISU and federations should also be interested in solving this easy to resolve issue. It ain't that hard. It's just a lack of interest and/or a lack of understanding of the importance of seeing skaters' entire bodies in order to enjoy their performances. I think it's also a lack of caring and compassion for fans. It's taking skaters, fans and the sport for granted in the lowest common denominator fashion, which happens quite regularly in this sport. Nothing new, sadly.

 

[dinakt]

Remember when they somewhat tried this at Nebelhorn IIRC a few seasons ago? Not split in the way you suggested, but split the panels into one for GOE and one for PCS. Even with some judges solely looking at components, the disparity in scores was hilarious.

I remember that, and I do not think it was hilarious, I think it was great. There was a substantial upending of status quo at that competition, and better PCS skaters with less powerful Federations and name recognition got fairer scores; and some skaters got ridiculously low scores because, frankly, so were their components.
There always will be disagreement in PCS. There are a few pro musicians in here, and we disagree on IN quite often. But there is much less "just align it with TES" attitude when panel looks only at PCS, and people are more likely to judge on their conviction.

 

[Carolla5501]

^^ The IN article is already being discussed in the 'Phil Hersh Tweets About Changes in Judging' thread. Are two separate threads needed?

Yes, because some of us don't bother to read the "Phil Hersh bashing threads"

 

[clairecloutier]

Tamara Moskvina comments negatively on the ISU's proposed devaluation of jumps:

http://tass.ru/sport/4556073

 

[Frida80]

Tamara Moskvina comments negatively on the ISU's proposed devaluation of jumps:

http://tass.ru/sport/4556073

Plushenko doesn't like them either.

https://twitter.com/iron_klaus/status/907605544130707456

 

[lala]

Tarasova doesn't like them either.. http://tass.ru/sport/4554858

 

[gkelly]

I hope the decisionmakers include coaches' perspectives in their decisions. Especially coaches who work with a wide range of skaters, including but not limited to elite medal contenders.

 

[Frida80]

Tamara Moskvina comments negatively on the ISU's proposed devaluation of jumps:

http://tass.ru/sport/4556073

Plushenko doesn't like them either.

https://twitter.com/iron_klaus/status/907605544130707456

Tarasova doesn't like them either.. http://tass.ru/sport/4554858

I'm guessing this would mean a no vote from the Russian Fed.

 

[tony]

I'm guessing this would mean a no vote from the Russian Fed.

And Lakernik is behind a lot of the ideas and actual changes that happen with IJS, so hopefully they go back to the drawing board on this.

 

[Meoima]

And Lakernik is behind a lot of the ideas and actual changes that happen with IJS, so hopefully they go back to the drawing board on this.

Lakernik is actually behind the ideas of artistic programs...

 

[tony]

Lakernik is actually behind the ideas of artistic programs...

I'm pretty sure he's also been behind the changing of parts of the scale of values in the last few years. If he is behind a more artistic program, it may make sense that he wants to put less emphasis on difficult jumps (even if it could end up balanced out by the changing GOE scale).

I think the significant value drop for the throw quads in pairs skating is the most . It's not as if many teams are even attempting it.

 

[lala]

I'm guessing this would mean a no vote from the Russian Fed.

I think so, too

 

[vesperholly]

Shorter programs might be rooted from the need to reduce the length of competition for broadcasters. I suspect they have no reason truly related to the quality of skating.

They never show the whole competition anyway! If we're lucky we get the full last two groups. If not, Americans and medalists.

 

[Meoima]

They never show the whole competition anyway! If we're lucky we get the full last two groups. If not, Americans and medalists.

True... Even when I was a kid, we only got mostly rebroadcasted programs. But we had no internet that time so it didn't matter.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Wow, cutting the program length by 30 seconds for the men and pairs is a HORRIBLE idea, IMO. That's just going to result in less artistry and interpretation. I'm also not a fan of have an artistic program and then a technical program. I want both aspects blended in both programs. That would just flip this sport upside down even more. I hate the Team Competition at the Olympics. The ISU just keeps outdoing itself coming up with horrible ideas.

I agree the first team competition didn't work somehow. But idea of a team competition does. Does it not, like in gymnastics, encourage development of the sport in all it's variations? It rewards the Federations for depth in their programs.

 

[Frida80]

They never show the whole competition anyway! If we're lucky we get the full last two groups. If not, Americans and medalists.

This is why I love the JGP being broadcast over YouTube. I can watch the entire competition from anywhere while it happens. It's much more fun.

 

[Meoima]

This is why I love the JGP being broadcast over YouTube. I can watch the entire competition from anywhere while it happens. It's much more fun.

And ISU doesn't allow normal fans to watch senior competitions through YouTube in countries that have no tivi license contracts with them. ISU live stream for senior doesn't work sometimes too. Why they don't move all to YouTube for non-license chances is weird.

 

[Frida80]

And ISU doesn't allow normal fans to watch senior competitions through YouTube in countries that have no tivi license contracts with them. ISU live stream for senior doesn't work sometimes too. Why they don't move all to YouTube for non-license chances is weird.

I know USFS really counted on money from TV contracts to fund their program. It's probably the same for other Feds as well. But a icenetwork.com subscription is ridiculous when Europe, Canada and Russia can watch it for free. Not to mention, I'm not a fan of Tara and Johnny's commentary. Ted is a breath of fresh air.

 

[Dragonlady]

They tried this before the 2010 Olympics. When it resulted in a World Champion (Buttle) and an Olympic Gold Medalist (Lysachek) who couldn't land a quad, and a reduction in the number of men attempting quads, they changed the scoring to emphasize quads. Now the pendulum is swing back again.

I doubt they will ever find the balance they hope to achieve. They'll just keep going back and forth.

 

[FSfan107]

I agree the first team competition didn't work somehow. But idea of a team competition does. Does it not, like in gymnastics, encourage development of the sport in all it's variations? It rewards the Federations for depth in their programs.

I would at least like to see it after the individual competitions have taken place. What you say is true, I'm just so use to Figure Skating being an individual sport.

 

[Sylvia]

Meagan Duhamel and Chris Knierim debating the proposed quad value reductions on Twitter for those interested

https://twitter.com/ChrisKnierim/status/907403063639584768 (scroll down)

 

[aftershocks]

They only needed to rethink and bring into some kind of less disparate alignment the point values for quads among the men. I don't see any reason for them reducing point values for triple jumps in either singles or pairs, nor for reducing the values of any quad throw jumps in pairs. And the reduction of program length proposal is like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. They need to find other ways to reduce competition length!

https://twitter.com/ChrisKnierim/status/907403063639584768 (scroll down)

I agree with Chris' opinion below:
Chris Knierim‏ @ChrisKnierim 18h18 hours ago
In my opinion they can lower the singles quad points the way it's shown on the graph. Keeping the throw quads as they are now.

And I completely understand Meagan's viewpoint here:
Meagan Duhamel‏Verified account @mhjd_85 19h19 hours ago
Replying to @ChrisKnierim @olyphil @icenetwork
I believe quad twists are dangerous. But you do it well, so for you it's worth the risk. I respect that, I don't want to diminish its worth.

Even though Chris points out the risks and dangers of quad throws, he obviously agrees there's no reason to reduce the point values for quad throws (just for quads among singles men). The values for quad twists in pairs should not be reduced either (but an intent to do so was not mentioned in the IN article).

The mistake began post-2010 Olympics in over-reacting to the brouhaha by over-valuing quads. The ISU did need to increase the point values for quads, but not as high as they went! It was overkill IMO. Refusal to simply acknowledge what the mistake is, rather than camouflaging it with more mistakes only further demonstrates the lack of vision and judicious leadership.

 

[becca]

Well personally I think part of the problem is messy programs getting rewarded. Chan and Hanyu were terrible at the Olympic free scores didn't show it. While they maybe should have finished 1-2 they should have lost the free to a couple of skaters. Patrick Chans a beautiful skater but he shouldn't have beaten Denis Ten at that Worlds a few years back. Ten presented two beautiful skates with excellent skating skills and high quality jumps. When Chan is on is he a better skater sure. But it's a.competiton and what you do should matter.

 

[aftershocks]

Ted is a breath of fresh air.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Barton
This guy (Ted Barton) is completely excellent in his JGP commentary. I so look forward to listening to his insightful, fair and constructive takes! You can tell how caring, passionate and involved he is in supporting and growing the sport and in recognizing and benefiting the athletes. He's also low-key (i.e., not interested in big bucks or fame). Alluding to my earlier comments, I think Barton exemplifies the kind of passionate, skilled and dedicated people the sport needs. If you have the passion and are willing to give your time and effort, you receive back so many more rewards than just money. It should be possible to find other ways to make an income while giving to the sport, if at all possible. And the sport should be seeking out deep-pocketed sponsors who can be cultivated and shown how great the sport is, and thereby encouraged to provide generous support on an ongoing basis.

I happen to like the somewhat small world nature of our sport, and I actually wouldn't like to see it become a top-heavy over-commercialized sport. However, the sport can be grown in beneficial ways with the right vision and leadership, and with the understanding of how to market and promote fs to a variety of target audiences.

 

[Sylvia]

There's a Ted Barton (eta: commentator for the ISU's JGP coverage) thread here : https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/the-ted-barton-appreciation-society.101781/

For those who might be wondering... the original "Phil Hersh tweets" thread (started by "missing" 2 weeks ago) has been merged with the thread started last night by DreamSkates (now post #101) and re-titled (Seerek posted the link to Hersh's article in the original thread yesterday in post #81 here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-to-judging-system.101764/page-3#post-5127365 ). ETA that @clairecloutier made the suggestion for the 2 threads to be merged in the Board Business forum.

 

[aftershocks]

Yes, because some of us don't bother to read the "Phil Hersh bashing threads"

But that's prejudging that any thread with Phil Hersh's name in the title is necessarily one created to purposely bash him. I don't see much Phil Hersh bashing in this thread. ISU's lack of good judgement, yes. Hersh, not necessarily.

 

[Willin]

My problem with quads isn't that there's too many - just that their value is so high that men spend all their energy doing quads and not working on much else leading to sloppy, boring, or otherwise uninteresting programs. There are a few men that can do it all (Hanyu, Javi, etc.), but 3-4 men out of a field of 20 is hardly enough to say that things are okay the way they are now. I think we should encourage quads, but also maybe bump up the value on certain spins or footwork. That is - make difficult spins/footwork values aligned with quad values.

The way I see it, jumps are similar to most elements - there's 4 levels currently with 1 being basic and 4 being very difficult to achieve. An interesting solution would be to make all jump values in line with the value with the BV of the corresponding level for a jump/spin with extra points added to the base value for the type of jump. (Ie. If a L4 spin is BV 3.5 points, make a 4T 3.5 points, a 4S 3.75 points, etc.) I don't think quads should be valued quite that low, but maybe that just means a L4 spin needs to be valued more highly or that a higher spin level needs to be added. Yes, having quads encourages technical advances in the sport - but only in jumps. Maybe we need to encourage technical advancements in footwork and spins as well. (Although should we really? My thighs burn just thinking about what a L5 Footwork would look like)

But women have landed 3As and quads, albeit not many of them. Is this necessarily because they are not capable of it, or because they don't practice and train it?

There may be truth in what you say here, but is it also possible that perceptions of female skaters limit what they are allowed to do and think they can do?

If girl skaters were allowed to train the 3A and quad, would more of them not land the jumps successfully in competition? This is assuming, of course, that there would be training techniques in place for girls/women that took their body shape into account. I don't know whether there are any such techniques at present.

I think we're assuming that skaters aren't training it or haven't been working to get 3As or quads. Many ladies have been trying to get 3As at various points in their careers. I think over Summer 2016 this forum had a nice long discussion about the fact that almost every top US/Canadian lady and several more from Japan and Europe were all working on 3As. There's been quite a few young skaters who have posted instagram clips of them landing quads or 3As in practice (or getting very close), and yet how many have pulled it off in competition. Of those who have landed one in competition, fewer still were able to do so consistently.

We should also note I'm talking about skaters past puberty - and all of the female skaters with instagram videos of off-the-harness quads in practice are on the younger/tinier side. Since having girls train quads is such a new thing, we'll see if they can keep the quads going after they reach their mature height/weight/body type or even if they can manage to land one in competition.

 

[Seerek]

As for components, the judges have been using this mark more and more as merely ordinal placements like in the 6.0 era. Nothing in the communication to address this.