ISU floats possible changes to judging system

[Dobre]

I think there is a perfectly good chance that when China hosts the Olympics, they will want to move the team event after the individual ones. After all, their top medal hopes are generally in pairs, not in ladies. And they would probably like to send their best athletes up more than once in the team event to shoot for a medal there.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If they have 3 events for pairs and singles, will they eliminate the team event for the Olympics?

The way I interpreted, there still would be two programs, which, added together determine the all-around medalist. "A full medal," not another two phases.

Another change may include replacing the current short program and free skate with what would effectively be an athletic program and an artistic program. Each would award full medals in events like the Olympics and the world championships, and there also would be a full medal for the all-around winner.

I think there is a perfectly good chance that when China hosts the Olympics, they will want to move the team event after the individual ones. After all, their top medal hopes are generally in pairs, not in ladies. And they would probably like to send their best athletes up more than once in the team event to shoot for a medal there.

I think the team event at the end of the Olympics could be more telegenic. Plus, the TE is a win-win for US audiences, since US networks still put up the big Olys $$$: There are US Ladies, and the US is likely a medal contender for the TE.

 

[tony]

There are a lot of ideas being thrown around in the article, but at least the higher-ups of the deciding committee seem to agree that the TES has become too important.

The idea of a athletic versus an artistic program sounds much like the interpretive pro-ams from the late 90's-2002 (think Michelle Kwan's 7-triple technical program at the 1998 World Pros and then one of her best outings ever of East of Eden for the interpretive program as a great example). But I have issues like some of the coaches. If you're reducing the mens free skate to 4 minutes and only removing one jumping element, everything is still going to be just as crammed technically as we see now. Many skaters are still likely to throw in four jump elements in the span of 20 seconds as soon as the second half hits, etc. Not sure how that would give more time to showcase an 'artistic' program, but it seems that idea is more longterm than post-Olympics.

And if I'm reading this correctly 'the interval would be at 10 percent of the base value', so a triple Lutz that starts at a 5.9 base value gets what, 8.85 points as a +5, and 2.95 points as a -5? Even though they are planning to change the base values, it becomes trivial when skaters can earn even more points technically on the 10% thing, at least how I'm interpreting it. The quad Lutz, even with the significant drop in base value, would seem to garner 17.25 points at +5 and 6.8 points at -5. But again, this is if I'm reading and understanding correctly. This once again gives the skater an opportunity at a higher element score than with the old/current base values.

So, even though they plan to take one jumping element out, the men can still deliver a flawless set of jumps otherwise and still be at the same place technically as they were with the eighth element, and that still doesn't solve the PCS issue.

 

[SpeedySucks]

With one less jumping pass for men, I assume Nathan Chen's free skate will be comprised of 6 quads and a triple axel. That's not really going to fix the current problem, even if quads are worth less.

 

[skatingguy]

The way I interpreted, there still would be two programs, which, added together determine the all-around medalist. "A full medal," not another two phases.

My understanding of the rules for events at the Olympics is that medals cannot be awarded twice for the same competition. So in order to have a technical event, an artistic event, and an overall event it would require that the event include a different set of competitions from the first two. If you think about gymnastics they could just have one competition in which all the gymnastics compete and then award the medals for team, individual, and apparatus from that competition, but the Olympic rules require that the medals events be separated so they have separate finals for each stage of the competition. It's the reason that gymnastics events are structured the way there are.

 

[clairecloutier]

Wow, there are some serious problems with these proposals, and certain other changes the ISU has made lately. TBH, it makes me wonder if I will even be watching this sport 5 years from now. It's concerning, to say the very least. The decisions they're making are not even consistent with their avowed aims.

BTW, the concept of separate "artistic" and "technical" programs (welcome back Landover!) was first floated by Alexander Lakernik in an IceNetwork article within the last year or so. I hoped against hope that this idea would die the quiet death it deserves ... But, when you are ISU Vice President of Figure Skating ... I do find it ironic that Lakernik, one of the chief architects of IJS, now wishes to make radical changes to try and fix the shortfalls of the system he created.

ETA: Here is the IceNetwork Lakernik article I mentioned. Loved his comment that figure skating competitions should be shortened because "currently they are too long and the audience in the rink and TV viewers can hardly survive it all."

 

[Coco]

If they just prescribed some of the elements in the SP, it would limit the ability of skaters to pile up huge TES advantages. It could still be opened ended, like requiring that the 2nd jump in the combo be an edge jump. Someone could try for a 3l, but most would go for a double.

But whatever fixes you make, incompetent or biased judges is a huge problem that can't be evaded.

 

[clairecloutier]

Meagan Duhamel and Chris Knierim debating the proposed quad value reductions on Twitter for those interested

 

[MAXSwagg]

The problem is with the judges giving improper program components scores and high GOE for FLAWED jumps. But I had to laugh at Kori Ade saying she has never seen any man do a quad from difficult steps. Yuzu, Patrick, and Javier all do them. But hey. I guess everyone has to politik for their skater. Lol

Though I do agree with the reductions in base values, and really should be a reduction across the board. Also, the base values for the 4Lz makes absolutely no sense at all. Even with the current base values, 4Lz should only be like 12.6, not damn 13.6. And still have not addressed the issue of the 3A-3Lz imbalance, which was exacerbated by the ridiculous and nonsensical increase in 3T and 3S base value increases.

 

[aftershocks]

Meagan Duhamel and Chris Knierim debating the proposed quad value reductions on Twitter for those interested

Yep, for pairs I'm not certain why the reductions when those quad elements in pairs were never inordinately high to begin with. I wonder about this development for pairs. Also, why are they picking out 2013 and 2014 Worlds stats to exclusively harp on about for comparison purposes? Just because they wish to focus on impact of scoring mess over the last four years? I could have told them (and I DID) four years ago (and 7 years ago) that they were heading in the wrong direction/ barking up the wrong tree.

Ummm, despite the hopefulness of my below comments, I hadn't read the entire IN article prior to composing the below response. I'm a bit unsure as I contemplate further simply because figure skating powers-that-be have never possessed a great deal of common sense, competence, vision, or leadership. Why should they magically start showing such qualities now? It's all noise anyway until we see what actually happens. Oh well. Fans of figure skating are used to their hearts skipping a beat with hope, and then having their hopes not only dashed, but unfairly vandalized and destroyed.

Related to what Phil tweeted, here is the Ice Network article discussing possible changes to scoring:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

I like the idea of awarding separate medals for the short, the long, and "all around", as in gymnastics. We've talked about this here before. Spreads the love.

Exactly. We've discussed this on FSU plenty of times. I'm sure FSU is perused often and ideas expressed here are taken into consideration to a degree we may not fully realize. A lot of reform ideas have probably been under discussion for awhile. It's difficult most likely to get everyone on the same page when you are dealing with a highly politicized organization made up of people from different federations who all possess sometimes conflicting vested interests.

I just hope the ISU carefully considers how they implement new changes and that they try test runs before rushing strict measures into effect precipitously, the way they did with anonymous judging and overly high values for quads, and falls being okay as long as you make the rotations.

Prior to now I haven't explicitly said to anyone, "I told you so," regarding the fact the ISU is recognizing and adhering to what I said all along and that I have been harshly criticized for in past threads: Ever since the changes in quad values post-2010, there's been a need to revisit the changes and to consider making reasonably judicious reforms. The overly high values given to quads post 2010-Olympics were always too high!!! But it took a young man landing five quads cleanly in a fp for the ISU to finally concede and to voice the fact that they are definitely going to bring the rampant scoring system under control posthaste.

Nathan has been merely following the rules that are in place, while applying his prodigious talent in trying to reach the podium! He's an artist as well, but he showed how exclusively focused the technical concentration must be to execute clean quads, which limits time and ability to flesh out the artistic nuances. This doesn't mean Nathan does not possess artistry and musicality. He most certainly does. What Nathan showed was always true (and we could see it with the often flawed highly scored performances of top skaters attempting to pile on heavy tech), but TPTB as well as some quad-loving fans kept their heads firmly planted in the sand. And then Boyang Jin landing on the podium twice without possessing great artistry and skating skills got some people's attention. And then Nathan Chen blasted through the quad stratosphere circa 2017 -- and the rest is history.

I know the ISU has been discussing and throwing around the idea of making changes for awhile. But now they are acting with more purposeful intention. Like I said, Nathan's exploits upset the apple cart and the status quo big time.

I'm not picking on Boyang btw. His technical feats deserve praise and recognition too. And he's a strong competitor who's improving in other areas of his skating. Still, he has a long way to go re understanding and expressing the music. With separate technical and artistic categories planned, it's still possible for Boyang to reach podiums in the technical category. There are so many more quality skaters who should be rewarded in the artistic category. I'd love to see Jason Brown be the first to win gold in the artistic category! If Adam retires, the changes will come too late for him to receive his artistic rewards. Maybe he'll stick around for another year after a new scoring system is implemented. Oh no, I see from the IN article that the program changes may not be implemented until post-2022, although the scoring changes are planned for 2018-19 season.

What I worry about (as others have mentioned) is that the ISU will also need to make changes in how judges are selected to try and ferret out the political gamesmanship and scoring manipulation. I know politics can sadly never be completely eliminated, but any improvements that can be made would be helpful. I really hope the ISU will also bring in judges with a background in and an expert's eye for understanding performance qualities: dance, musicality, choreography, body awareness, skilled use of arms, and the ability to tell a story. How music is selected and edited should become even more important. This does have the potential to be the step that can set the sport on the right track. Fingers-crossed.

BTW, this shouldn't be about the business as usual of over-rewarding top quadsters who have good jumping ability and adequate artistry. Hanyu, for example, should get high tech scores if he skates cleanly, but his PCS in some categories have always been too high. These changes will not be effective if attention is not paid to bringing PCS manipulation under control. I'm sure Hanyu and Javi would be candidates under a revamped system for the all-around category, but I don't believe either would or should score that highly in an artistic category without improving their weaknesses (Hanyu has the potential to pay more attention to stretch, pointing his toes, understanding musical nuances; Javi has found his niche artistically, but he still lacks artistic range and he can definitely improve his understanding and expression of the music). OTOH, Patrick Chan has made a point of trying to improve his artistic weaknesses. I give him credit for that. I can see Patrick on the podium in the artistic and all-around category, but again, this change comes too late for veteran skaters like him who have plans to retire. Apparently, it also comes too late for most of the current generation of senior skaters. Those who are fairly young coming up in juniors now will be the ones to take full advantage.

Maybe the ISU will adjust PCS categories. I do think they need a more skilled panel with performance backgrounds and expert understanding of choreography, musicality and movement dynamics to judge the aesthetic aspects of the sport. The next thing I really hope will happen is more attention given to having young skaters practice figures. It would be wonderful if the current World Figure Championship (now called World Figure & Fancy Skating Championships) could be more widely supported and sponsored too: http://worldfigurechampionship.com/index.html

And most of all: Please allow veteran skaters to retire to a viable professional tour. That is deeply needed! It will help the sport on every level.

 

[DreamSkates]

Here's the article from Ice Network. http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206
I am all FOR getting rid of anonymous judging once and for all!
Moderators -of course move this post if this has been posted somewhere.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ The IN article is already being discussed in the 'Phil Hersh Tweets About Changes in Judging' thread. Are two separate threads needed?

Aha! And threads are merged with title change, which makes perfect sense. So my above comments are now out of context.

 

[Debbie S]

If you're reducing the mens free skate to 4 minutes and only removing one jumping element, everything is still going to be just as crammed technically as we see now. Many skaters are still likely to throw in four jump elements in the span of 20 seconds as soon as the second half hits, etc.

Exactly. I didn't realize the program time change had passed. Essentially, a senior men's FS will be just like a current junior men's FS, and the coach of a competitive Junior Man in my area asserts (as does Orser in the article) that it is easier to skate a (current) Senior program than a Junior one - the extra 30 secs means 1 more jumping pass (which takes maybe 10 secs) and then 20 secs for a choreo sequence and additional choreo, which is quite a bit of choreo time. If the ISU wants to encourage artistry and make men's skating less of a jumpfest, than keep the programs at 4:30 and take away a jump element (maybe two), and then it will be clear which skaters can interpret music and present a true program.

The idea of a separate athletic and artistic program in eligible skating is If the ISU wants to promote artistic skating, then bring back a pro circuit. Or create a separate competitive track (although I don't know how feasible it is to add a whole separate event to the Olys).

 

[MAXSwagg]

Nathan Chen is closer to Boyang in components than not (and this is from a live perspective), I don't care what the judges say (like that atrocious 4CC scoring that was borderline scandalous - again, exemplifies that the issue is mostly with the judges, not the system), so let's stop acting like Nathan is the next coming of Chan or Hanyu...

 

[aftershocks]

Kori Ade makes some absolutely excellent points in the IN article. After reading through the article, I am really wondering how and why the ISU thinks cutting program length while eliminating one jumping pass for the men will constitute better judging on artistry. It won't. As Ade notes, "If the intent is to weight artistry differently, cutting the program is contrary to that," Ade said. "What allows artistry is more time. One of the things (skaters like Jason) do so well is use music to tell a story. The current length is comfortable for him to get into the story."

ITA! They just need to cut down on too much jam-packed tech content and leave the length of programs alone. And they need to work on how judges are selected and trained! And/or they should seriously consider having a separate judging panel for assessing artistry and bring in skilled experts with backgrounds in judging the aesthetics of artistic performance. What's so hard about recognizing that the judging itself (and the politics) is the main problem?! Fixing the way numbers are weighted and tallied does nothing if the people making the assessments aren't fully knowledgeable and are being asked to make too many complicated calls on a dime, without a true understanding of what constitutes musicality, interpretation, and skillful execution of choreography.

Why isn't the ISU simply honest about the fact that they are cutting program length in order to decrease overall competition event length? What they need to be doing is figuring out a more efficient way to shorten the length of kiss 'n cry time, by changing how the judging is managed and reported during the competition. I don't have all the answers regarding how to cut competition length and kiss 'n cry endless waiting time, but it's the kiss 'n cry and the Zamboni breaks that are the real time-wasting culprits. Leave the length of programs alone, please!

I hope consideration is given to pertinent and meaningful critiques and testing before the ISU just makes more of a mess of things. As far as I'm concerned the idea to give separate medals for technical and artistic performances, plus an all-around medal is something that makes the most sense and does not need to wait necessarily for four years before being implemented. Quad values were always excessively high, but they were inordinately high in the men's division, not so much in pairs. It's the hasty and ill-conceived post-2002 changes to the scoring system and the formerly anonymous judging which have always been the biggest problems.

It's sadly laughable that they are still trying to fix what they messed up so incompetently 7 years ago (and 15 years ago). If they'd taken their time post-2002 Olympics to make carefully thought-out, judicious and needed changes, they wouldn't have so many things that require revamping, throwing out, revising and re-establishing endlessly on an ongoing basis. It doesn't seem like anyone charged with devising these rules changes actually understand the full impact of the changes they are considering, re whether or not the changes will actually achieve the desired goals.

ETA: Another beef I have: 'artistic' programs will be no less 'athletic.' All skaters are athletes! Some skaters have more advanced technical skill, and others more advanced artistic abilities. So the distinctions between the two proposed categories should be more appropriately termed, 'technical' and 'artistic,' as such programs were formerly designated under the old pro competition system.

 

[aftershocks]

Nathan Chen is closer to Boyang in components

Actually, Boyang is still trying to figure out how to improve his aesthetics and his skating skills. Nathan is simply building on his already budding and exceedingly delightful artistic sensibilities. Boyang is trying to gain a performance edge by broadly mugging to the audience which some people think means he deserves better interpretation scores. It does not! That you can't see how clearly Nathan has a greater command of musical understanding than Boyang is your problem. The problem for the sport is when most judges can't see it either.

Nathan plays the piano and he understands musical nuances. Boyang skates over his music. Yep, they are both young and good athletes with amazing jumping abilities, but Boyang has much farther to go and much more to learn artistically than does Nathan Chen. This is not subjective for someone who actually understands how to analyze and judge performance skills and aesthetic qualities.

 

[alj5]

My gut reaction is no. Just no to all (except an end to anonymous judging).

Sitting with it for a few minutes, I'm warming up to separate medals for SP, FP, and Overall.
I still don't like the idea of lowering the base value for quads and 3A. And I don't think it's fair to compare someone getting X% of their total score from PCS vs Y% from TES. If they're looking at trying to maintain an approximate even weight to both sections of scores, wouldn't it make more sense to compare average PCS vs avg TES? Or average of the middle 12? Only the guys who are hitting 100+ in TES in the free are significantly affected by the inequality.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Actually, Boyang is still trying to figure out how to improve his aesthetics and his skating skills. Nathan is simply building on his already budding and exceedingly delightful artistic sensibilities. Boyang is trying to gain a performance edge by broadly mugging to the audience which some people think means he deserves better interpretation scores. It does not! That you can't see how clearly Nathan has a greater command of musical understanding than Boyang is your problem. The problem for the sport is when most judges can't see it either.

Nathan plays the piano and he understands musical nuances. Boyang skates over his music. Yep, they are both young and good athletes with amazing jumping abilities, but Boyang has much farther to go and much more to learn artistically than does Nathan Chen. This is not subjective for someone who actually understands how to analyze and judge performance skills and aesthetic qualities.

Who said Boyang should get higher marks? They're both over-scored in components, on the order of 10 points comparatively to Fernandez/Chan/Hanyu, imo. Which also results in those three still getting 90+ for PCS when they're hot messes. Again...problem with the judges, not the system.

 

[aftershocks]

Who said Boyang should get higher marks? They're both over-scored in components, on the order of 10 points comparatively to Fernandez/Chan/Hanyu, imo. Which also results in those three still getting 90+ for PCS when they're hot messes. Again...problem with the judges, not the system.

Yeah, well so are Hanyu and Javi over-scored on some components! Once again, there's a difference between Nathan vs Boyang aesthetically. They are both great jumpers, but Nathan overall has displayed better command and precision. Boyang is a gamer competitively and technically, but he lags behind Nathan especially in musical understanding, artistic expression, and interpretive abilities. Depending upon specific performances, I'd say Nathan also has better skating skills and performance execution.

Javi and Hanyu are simply more mature and experienced. They are not better at musical understanding than Nathan, and they certainly are not better at choreographic performance, music interpretation and transitions than Jason Brown, despite always being scored higher in those categories than Jason! Patrick Chan on a good day is better than most all-around, but even Patrick does not have better musical interpretation, choreo and transition skills than Jason. I'd say Patrick tries hard in those areas and he's greatly improved. Nathan is so good in the area of musicality and he's steadily improving so that he's equal or slightly better than Patrick there. Of course Patrick trumps Nathan with maturity and boffo skating skills supreme, as well as choreo and performance execution when he's in the zone.

And yep @alj5, I would agree they need to be careful re messing with GOEs and too many drastic, ill-advised numbers changes across the board without understanding the impact of what they are doing. Quads are definitely over-valued for the men. That's patently clear. But I don't know about whether there's really much of an over-valuing impact for quads in pairs. The chart featured in the IN article failed to show the current values for throw triple jumps.

I think the judges have too much to do already without further increasing and complicating GOE range. They need to focus as I said, on how judges are selected and trained. And they need judges with more skilled understanding of performance aesthetics. Cutting program length while increasing the already interminable length of time it takes judges to enter scores is very ill-advised. They will be making a mistake if they decrease program length.

Meanwhile, starting trial runs on the local and senior B levels with separate artistic, technical and all-around program medals is something that can be implemented faster than the timing suggested in the article. After all, 'artistic' and 'technical' programs will not be something new altogether to figure skating! I am for this type of change because it will allow for more and better opportunities for skaters to excel and to be rewarded.

Also, I think it's a mistake for ISU to think 'radical change' for the sake of doing something 'radical' is what's necessarily required to solve the sport's problems! The first step is to acknowledge bone-headed mistakes they made in the first place with the scoring system circa 2002 and 2010 especially, before blindly making any more.

 

[Tahuu]

The proposed reduction in base values of quads is ridiculous and may turn men's skating backward to the 2010 Olympics. The hallmark of men's skating is its technical difficulty.

It's also illogical and arbitrary that the increase in BV from 3T (4.2) to 3Lz (5.9) is 40% while it's about 20% from 4T (9.5) to 4Lz (11.5). Guess ISU believe it's twice harder to learn 3Lz after getting 3T than from 4T to 4Lz.

 

[aftershocks]

With one less jumping pass for men, I assume Nathan Chen's free skate will be comprised of 6 quads and a triple axel. That's not really going to fix the current problem, even if quads are worth less.

The way you've worded this suggests you think that 'Nathan Chen' is the problem.

 

[Japanfan]

The reality is that not every skater may not be physically capable of doing what gets the maximum points. That has nothing to do with their desire to win.

Over time, TPTB and society at large have often considered women to be incapable of things that women have ultimately proved themselves capable of.

I have to wonder whether the perception of what female skaters are capable of = their actual capabilities. Perceptions of women have long been influenced by beliefs about their biology, physique and hormones, and these beliefs have largely been limiting or negative. And perceptions of female skaters have always been influenced by traditional views/stereotypes of femininity. The female skaters who defy those stereotypes are few and far between, and only a few have done so successfully. What's more common is for female skaters to be pushed to fulfill the stereotype. I'll never forget the jumping bean Yoshi Onda when Chouinard dressed her in a pink costume and did her hair in pigtails with pink ribbons. Onda looked absolutely miserable!

You have to have a near impossible body shape for an adult female to rotate fast enough for 3As/quads. Pre-puberty, the body is more cylindrical, which makes it easier (also why it's easier for men - they have lower body fat and generally no curves to make them less cylindrical).

But women have landed 3As and quads, albeit not many of them. Is this necessarily because they are not capable of it, or because they don't practice and train it?

There may be truth in what you say here, but is it also possible that perceptions of female skaters limit what they are allowed to do and think they can do?

If girl skaters were allowed to train the 3A and quad, would more of them not land the jumps successfully in competition? This is assuming, of course, that there would be training techniques in place for girls/women that took their body shape into account. I don't know whether there are any such techniques at present.

You'll also notice the most successful female skaters have few curves and body fat - a genetic luck-of-the-draw thing. Even then, you need to have great technique and costumes with very minimal drag (less skirts and ruffles).

Interesting point. It has not occurred to me that skirts and ruffles (as they are today, in any case) would in themselves impact jumping ability.

 

[overedge]

I have to wonder whether perception of what female skaters are capable of = their actual capabilities. Perceptions of women have long been influenced by beliefs about their biology, physique and hormones, and these beliefs have largely been limiting or negative.

And women have, time and time again, proven that they are capable of things others previously considered them incapable of.

Well, first let me point out that I didn't specify women skaters in what I said.

I'm not talking about outdated and stereotypical gender-based beliefs about physical capabilities, like that women shouldn't run marathons because their ovaries will fall out.

When I say "physical capabilities", I mean things like having enough flexibility in your hips to pull your leg over your head and hold it there for a Biellmann spin. Or being able to extend your leg very high behind you, and hold it there, to do a long spectacular spiral like Bobek or the Kween. Not every skater, male or female, can do those moves that well - and them not being able to do those moves is not a sign that they're lazy or not training correctly or whatever. They just can't do them.

 

[FSfan107]

Wow, cutting the program length by 30 seconds for the men and pairs is a HORRIBLE idea, IMO. That's just going to result in less artistry and interpretation. I'm also not a fan of have an artistic program and then a technical program. I want both aspects blended in both programs. That would just flip this sport upside down even more. I hate the Team Competition at the Olympics. The ISU just keeps outdoing itself coming up with horrible ideas.

 

[Japanfan]

I'm not talking about outdated and stereotypical gender-based beliefs about physical capabilities, like that women shouldn't run marathons because their ovaries will fall out.

When I say "physical capabilities", I mean things like having enough flexibility in your hips to pull your leg over your head and hold it there for a Biellmann spin. Or being able to extend your leg very high behind you, and hold it there, to do a long spectacular spiral like Bobek or the Kween. Not every skater, male or female, can do those moves that well - and them not being able to do those moves is not a sign that they're lazy or not training correctly or whatever. They just can't do them.

I was overlaying an interpretation on your view, and will adjust my post.

 

[Frida80]

I don't think the issue is quads. I think the issue is PCS politics. The quad revolution just emerged because of it.

Take Boyang. He wants to compete at figure skating, however thanks to several factors he may never get that chance without his quads.

PCS scores are so weird. If your from the right fed, your PCS is higher. If you've won your national championship from one of these Feds, your PCS is higher. If you have the right coach, you PCS is higher. If you've skated consistently for multiple competitions, your PCS is higher. If you make a mistake, no matter what kind, you PCS drops. If you skate clean, you PCS sky rockets. If you're a favored skater, you PCS score is automatically higher than nearly anyone else's. If the completion is held in your country, you PCS score is higher. If the crowd screams loudly, you PCS score is higher.


Seriously, I can name so many reasons that have nothing to do with PCS scores that affect them. That means if your a popular skater from a bigger fed and a good reputation, you have a massive advantage over every skater regardless how you skate. How is anyone suppose to compete with that?

Quads however, are objective things that can be judged properly. You spend a long time learning them, you attempt them, you land them and then you are judged. With PCS, there is so much abuse that there is no way skaters can get a fair shake.

Before the GPF, I just knew that Hanyu would win and both Javier and Patrick would be on the podium. Even when they were falling apart, I though the judges would fatten their PCS scores so they could still medal. I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't or rather couldn't inflate their PCS scores to make up for the loss of TES to put them on the podium. In other words, two men that skated cleanly beat the vets that did not.

Fix the PCS scores. Then worry about quads.

 

[Meoima]

Yeah, well so are Hanyu and Javi over-scored on some components! Once again, there's a difference between Nathan vs Boyang aesthetically. They are both great jumpers, but Nathan overall has displayed better command and precision. Boyang is a gamer competitively and technically, but he lags behind Nathan especially in musical understanding, artistic expression, and interpretive abilities. Depending upon specific performances, I'd say Nathan also has better skating skills and performance execution.

Javi and Hanyu are simply more mature and experienced. They are not better at musical understanding than Nathan, and they certainly are not better at choreographic performance, music interpretation and transitions than Jason Brown, despite always being scored higher in those categories than Jason! Patrick Chan on a good day is better than most all-around, but even Patrick does not have better musical interpretation, choreo and transition skills than Jason. I'd say Patrick tries hard in those areas and he's greatly improved. Nathan is so good in the area of musicality and he's steadily improving so that he's equal or slightly better than Patrick there. Of course Patrick trumps Nathan with maturity and boffo skating skills supreme, as well as choreo and performance execution when he's in the zone.

And yep @alj5, I would agree they need to be careful re messing with GOEs and too many drastic, ill-advised numbers changes across the board without understanding the impact of what they are doing. Quads are definitely over-valued for the men. That's patently clear. But I don't know about whether there's really much of an over-valuing impact for quads in pairs. The chart featured in the IN article failed to show the current values for throw triple jumps.

I think the judges have too much to do already without further increasing and complicating GOE range. They need to focus as I said, on how judges are selected and trained. And they need judges with more skilled understanding of performance aesthetics. Cutting program length while increasing the already interminable length of time it takes judges to enter scores is very ill-advised. They will be making a mistake if they decrease program length.

Meanwhile, starting trial runs on the local and senior B levels with separate artistic, technical and all-around program medals is something that can be implemented faster than the timing suggested in the article. After all, 'artistic' and 'technical' programs will not be something new altogether to figure skating! I am for this type of change because it will allow for more and better opportunities for skaters to excel and to be rewarded.

Also, I think it's a mistake for ISU to think 'radical change' for the sake of doing something 'radical' is what's necessarily required to solve the sport's problems! The first step is to acknowledge bone-headed mistakes they made in the first place with the scoring system circa 2002 and 2010 especially, before blindly making anymore.

One only has to use words to say someone is better musician than others just because something like this can be art too: https://www.buzzfeed.com/jenlewis/q...-art-and-art?utm_term=.kieRdWknpL#.nfLXdQO0Px

Of course because you play piano that means you're more musical than other people. I guess it sounds legit even though one always knows it is so easy to manipulate words to justify any kind of judging.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Nope @Meoima. But there is something to be said for understanding musical nuances and being thereby able to express and interpret the music rather than to skate over the music. Every skater has strengths and weaknesses and generally develop in different areas and in different ways as they mature. Or in certain instances, individual skaters' growth may remain static in some areas. OTOH, certain skaters are more skilled than others artistically vs technically. And some skaters have all-around good technical basics with exceptional artistic qualities. Others may be superbly skilled technically with good movement qualities, yet possess average artistic abilities. Some are good jumpers with very weak aesthetics. And some have good aesthetics but lack strong skating skills and are only average in their technical abilities. Then there are skaters with good technical abilities and good aesthetics who lack speed and power.

The difficulty in being able to adequately judge these differences among skaters is not a matter of subjectivity, but a matter of the sport overall being stunted in its growth, and suffering from a lack of leadership, vision, and understanding of the sport's history. This has happened largely because of the sport being overseen for so long by speed skaters with no deep understanding of figure skating, but with an interest in wielding political power and institutional control. The way judges are selected and trained is inadequate. There needs to be a focus on seeking out and developing more skilled and neutral judges, not an over-focus on tinkering and re-tinkering with point values! Shortening length of programs and legislating endless spin rotations and positions that look the same in every program only hampers, not enhances artistic creativity.

Meagan Duhamel and Chris Knierim debating the proposed quad value reductions on Twitter for those interested

Where are they doing the debating?

 

[Meoima]

^^ Nope @Meoima. But there is something to be said for understanding musical nuances and being thereby able to express and interpret the music rather than to skate over the music. Every skater has strengths and weaknesses and generally develop in different areas as they mature. Some skaters are more skilled than others artistically vs technically. And some skaters have all-around good technical basics with exceptional artistic qualities. Others may be superbly skilled technically with good movement qualities, yet possess average artistic abilities. Some are good jumpers with very weak aesthetics. And some have good aesthetics but lack strong skating skills and are only average in their technical abilities. Then there are skaters with good technical abilities and good aesthetics who lack speed and power.

The difficulty in being able to adequately judge these differences among skaters is not a matter of subjectivity, but a matter of the sport overall being stunted in its growth, and suffering from a lack of leadership, vision, and understanding of the sport's history. This has happened largely because of the sport being overseen for so long by speed skaters with no deep understanding of figure skating, but with an interest in wielding political power and institutional control. The way judges are selected and trained is inadequate. There needs to be more skilled and neutral judges, not an over-focus on tinkering and re-tinkering with point values! Shortening length of programs and legislating endless spin rotations and positions that look the same in every program only hampers not enhances artistic creativity.

Where are they doing the debating?

Judges are not paid officially... and the rules and guidelines give them huge gap to score as whatever they want. It is ridiculous to debate which is the better art because there is none.
My biggest issue with this kind of debate on artistry is, people have different value and standards on art. Focusing only on the artistry will lead to the result only one type of general art will be selected over the others.

 

[aftershocks]

Judges are not paid officially... and the rules and guidelines give them huge gap to score as whatever they want. It is ridiculous to debate which is the better art because there is none.
My biggest issue with this kind of debate on artistry is, people have different value and standards on art. Focusing only on the artistry will lead to the result only one type of general art will be selected over the others.

That's true if we are discussing paintings or sculptures by accomplished artists. True subjectivity enters the picture in figure skating when having to judge skaters of equally high skill level technically and aesthetically, but with slight variances in areas of ability, e.g., Volosozhar/Trankov vs Savchenko/Szolkowy; the aesthetically improved Sui/Han vs Savchenko/ Massot; John Curry vs Toller Cranston; Klimova/Ponomarenko vs Usova/Zhulin; a number of top ice dancers at their best, many of whom possess equally great technical and artistic skills, and so on. The other thing to remember is that fed clout, skater reputation and Politics with a capital 'P' is always always a huge factor in figure skating, which too often determines how skaters are scored, especially when skaters of top quality compete against each other without making mistakes. It's easier for judges to judge when skaters make mistakes, unless it's a competition filled with technical errors and mistakes by skaters who on paper are expected to win or medal over skaters with less highly perceived reputation and accomplishments. In such cases, the scoring becomes a minefield for the judges.

And still, even with skaters of equally high caliber, skilled judges should be able to discern and to judge even slight variances in the strengths and weaknesses of their respective technical and performance abilities. It is possible to judge choreographic superiority in terms of whether the skater commits to the music and the movement while actually telling a story rather than mugging and miming through a program, skating over the music, or posing overdramatically and making grand gestures that are meaningless. It's possible to judge levels and abilities of musical interpretation, levels of overall performance execution, and quality vs quantity of transitions. It's just that the sport does not have people who possess leadership, vision and understanding of how to adequately seek out and train judges who can expertly judge these PCS categories, instead of manipulating PCS.

Nor does the ISU seem willing to appropriately address what the actual problems are. They speak about 'radical' changes like they are trying to wave a magic wand. But they are waving the wrong wand and they are focusing on making wrong and ineffectual changes to points values that will likely lead to more problems. Obviously, program length should not be shortened, nor is there a need to reduce the value of triple jumps. The problem in the men's division is the huge disparity in the point values given to quads, not the point values given to triples.

I've questioned before why the ISU doesn't make an effort to seek outside experts from other fields who might bring some fresh ideas and perspectives to actually focus on what the real problems are. I'd start with convening judges from diving and gymnastics, former top level skaters, as well as movement specialists, choreographers and artistic directors from the dance world.

You may as well leave off with the incessant refrain and tired excuse that 'judges are volunteers who are not paid.' So what! Get people who are passionate about the sport who don't mind not being paid but who are eager to learn how to do a good job for the right reasons: to benefit the sport and adequately reward the skaters. Egads and enuf already! Stay a measly backward Mom/Pop sport then with a perpetually lame and corrupt scoring system! Stop with all the pretensions and the whack justifications for ineptitude.

And once and for all fs broadcasters, get rid of those useless high overhead camera angles already!!! *Use a split screen when going in for closeups! We need to see skaters entire bodies at all times in order to fully enjoy their performances! And please stop with the bad camera angles!

(*At Worlds, they completely botched coverage of Savchenko/Massot's sp by switching to a high overhead camera shot just before an important move that was a highlight of their performance, but could not be enjoyed by viewers because it could not be fully seen! )