U.S. Women [#5]: Remain on the Dance Floor

[jlai]

I think Starr did quite well for "1980's jump content." She got the 3 flip back into the LP (she did two of them, one in combination) and she did two 3 loops (her best jump; both in combination). So I think she is adding the technical content back (like we saw with Carolina Kostner). She just needs to work on cleaning up those jump landings. She got quartered (there were no under calls though) on almost everything and it killed her score.

I don't think 3 loop was prevalent in 1980.

 

[Karen-W]

We’re just about halfway through the senior Grand Prix, and I think the two US senior ladies with the highest total scores are Isabeau and Amber

Barely a half point ahead of Lindsay, so pretty much tied for 2nd highest score.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't think 3 loop was prevalent in 1980.

3 loop was John Curry's hardest triple at the 1976 OWG and Robin Cousins' hardest triple at the 1980 OWG.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Barely a half point ahead of Lindsay, so pretty much tied for 2nd highest score.

just going by Sylvia’s list

If the decision had to be made today by USFS I wonder what they would do. If Isabeau was a given, and they only could decide between Amber and Lindsay I wonder if they would go for Amber who has the highest short program score of the three of them and can do ultra C in a free program, but then has a tendency maybe to lose focus or Lindsay, where according to Johnny and Tara all of her jumps are looked at under review.

Lindsay certainly does have wonderful spins and Amber has such great speed and power

anyway, looking forward to the rest of the season

 

[Karen-W]

just going by Sylvia’s list

If the decision had to be made today by USFS I wonder what they would do. If Isabeau was a given, and they only could decide between Amber and Lindsay I wonder if they would go for Amber who has the highest short program score of the three of them and can do ultra C in a free program, but then has a tendency maybe to come unraveled or the other skater where all of her jumps are looked at under review.

anyway, looking forward to the rest of the season

Lol - great way of minimizing your favorite skater's flaws while maximizing those of another skater.

You do you, boo, but let's at least wait to see how each does at their next GP before drawing any firm conclusions about who has the edge heading into Nats.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

great way of minimizing your favorite skater's flaws while maximizing those of another skater.

huh

I originally said, come unraveled, or lose focus, I didn’t minimize her flaws, I blatantly stated them. And Lindsey’s flaws, jumps being sent to review. Where Ambers are not. Don’t think I was reinventing the wheel here.

Although since you quoted my post, I had made a few minor changes but nothing maj

 

[Karen-W]

huh

I originally said, come unraveled, or lose focus, I didn’t minimize her flaws, I blatantly stated them. And Lindsey’s flaws, jumps being sent to review. Where Ambers are not. Don’t think I was reinventing the wheel here.

Although since you quoted my post, I had made a few minor changes but nothing maj

You originally said "a tendency to maybe come unraveled" which is absolutely understating Amber's reputation as a major headcase. Honestly, when was the last competition where she didn't have issues in either the SP or the FS? She loses focus so often, we've all come to expect it, even if we don't want it to happen. She'd be the star of Team Trainwreck if it was still around.

With regard to Lindsay, you said "all of her jumps are under review" which is not true and never has been the case. She does have certain jumps where you can expect a review except from the most lenient of tech panels, but the same can be said for any number of skaters (Audrey, most of the Korean women, etc).

You most certainly were attempting to minimize Amber's issues while maximizing Lindsay's. All I did was point this out. Additionally, "just going off of Sylvia’s list" is a cute way of trying to boost Amber while dismissing any other skaters who might challenge her for that 2nd spot, especially the person in 3rd at the moment with a score less than a half point off of Amber's 2nd place score.

 

[Coco]

In fairness, though, while Amber loses focus, it seems like she still manages a decent score most of the time. It's one or two elements, plus omitting a combo or something like that.

It will be interesting to see which of them makes it to worlds.

I'm a huge Lindsay fan, but I enjoy Amber, too. Amber has the larger upside, so if Lindsay's URs are something she can clean up with more time, I'm all for Amber going to worlds this year.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

You originally said "a tendency to maybe come unraveled" which is absolutely understating Amber's reputation as a major headcase. Honestly, when was the last competition where she didn't have issues in either the SP or the FS? She loses focus so often, we've all come to expect it, even if we don't want it to happen. She'd be the star of Team Trainwreck if it was still around.

With regard to Lindsay, you said "all of her jumps are under review" which is not true and never has been the case. She does have certain jumps where you can expect a review except from the most lenient of tech panels, but the same can be said for any number of skaters (Audrey, most of the Korean women, etc).

You most certainly were attempting to minimize Amber's issues while maximizing Lindsay's. All I did was point this out. Additionally, "just going off of Sylvia’s list" is a cute way of trying to boost Amber while dismissing any other skaters who might challenge her for that 2nd spot, especially the person in 3rd at the moment with a score less than a half point off of Amber's 2nd place score.

go argue with somebody else.

 

[mtnskater]

Listening to Polina’s Iron Butterfly and Ashley and Adam’s podcast, they were all strongly feeling that Lindsey was underscored for what she put out there at Skate Canada and they explain their reasons quite well. I felt the same at the time.

I’m super glad both are on the upswing this season, with Lindsey adjusting quite well to her big growth spurt and Amber hitting a beautiful triple axel for the first time in competition. It’s probably going to kill me that the U.S. ladies don’t have three spots this year

 

[sk9tingfan]

Listening to Polina’s Iron Butterfly and Ashley and Adam’s podcast, they were all strongly feeling that Lindsey was underscored for what she put out there at Skate Canada and they explain their reasons quite well. I felt the same at the time.

I’m super glad both are on the upswing this season, with Lindsey adjusting quite well to her big growth spurt and Amber hitting a beautiful triple axel for the first time in competition. It’s probably going to kill me that the U.S. ladies don’t have three spots this year

How tall is she?

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I don’t think worrying about 3 spots is really worth it. We barely need two right now.

 

[mtnskater]

Ouch!

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I don’t think worrying about 3 spots is really worth it. We barely need two right now.

Right. Thanks for the reminder. The 3 spots is not the issue. The issue is developing skaters with enough technical content that they can deliver consistently. The 3 spots will take care of them selves.

 

[Vagabond]

Right. Thanks for the reminder. The 3 spots is not the issue. The issue is developing skaters with enough technical content that they can deliver consistently. The 3 spots will take care of them selves.

When will this happen? Even including Meissner and Cohen, only four U.S. women have earned a World medal since the introduction of CoP.

 

[layman]

When will this happen? Even including Meissner and Cohen, only four U.S. women have earned a World medal since the introduction of CoP.

That was sobering to realize. American women have not been on top at Worlds since Michelle Kwan's era (which includes Kimmie Meissner, the last American to win Worlds in 2006). Just goes to show what a huge accomplishment it was for Alysa Liu to end the American medal drought in 2022.

I think our current women can do this as well. I think Amber is capable of it and I think Isabeau is capable of it.

 

[Maximillian]

When will this happen? Even including Meissner and Cohen, only four U.S. women have earned a World medal since the introduction of CoP.

Wait...who else besides Wagner and the two mentioned above?

ETA: Never mind, I forgot about Liu...

 

[Tesla]

Ashley Wagner won silver in 2016, and Alysa Liu won bronze in 2022.

 

[Willin]

I think the biggest issue with developing skaters is their focus. The US is still developing ice princesses with jump technique that's good under 6.0 but not good under IJS (UR-prone) and excellent spins (not rewarded enough under IJS). The Russian skaters have quads and 3As with bad technique, but it's higher jump content. The Japanese and Korean ladies are learning great, textbook technique on jumps while their spins suffer.

USFS tried to remedy the lack of 3-3s by rewarding triples and 3-3 combos at a lower level around 5-10 years ago - and it's really starting to pay off with many US ladies landing 3-3 combos now. The problem is the rest of the world was already ahead on that measure and have moved on from just 3-3s to clean 3-3s and 3As. Realistically, USFS needs to start punishing URs more heavily at the developmental levels, but we'll see what they do.

 

[layman]

Amber Glenn just did clean 3-3s and a clean 3A at Skate America, so at least one US lady is capable of this.

I agree that the USFS ignored URs for too long (they were still doing it as recently as the 2023 US Nationals) and it blighted several generations of American competitors.

 

[VGThuy]

I do remember some skaters were more prone to receiving UR calls than others at US Nationals, usually after those receiving those calls had been “marked” internationally.

 

[Willin]

@layman It's one of the reasons I've liked Amber since her Junior years despite the inconsistency: her jumps are clean and with great technique. They look more like Japanese/Korean Jumps than American jumps. Polina Edmunds also had jumps that were solidly backwards, if perhaps less powerful than Amber's. Lindsay Thorngren's solo jumps are good, but she goes too much up and not enough out on the back half of combos, so she gets URs there a lot.

@VGThuy The problem is it only started after international panels started calling those URs out. They should start calling URs out way down in Pre-pre and Preliminary so skaters can fix it well before they hit triples and develop a 10 year+ long habit of URs. Part of my problem with that as well was that it seemed to be used as a punishment or political tool: if you were in USFS's good graces they'd ignore your URs; if you weren't they'd give out those URs to make sure you were bumped down a spot or two - and that's a whole lot easier than manipulating the whole panel.

 

[layman]

@layman It's one of the reasons I've liked Amber since her Junior years despite the inconsistency: her jumps are clean and with great technique. They look more like Japanese/Korean Jumps than American jumps. Polina Edmunds also had jumps that were solidly backwards, if perhaps less powerful than Amber's. Lindsay Thorngren's solo jumps are good, but she goes too much up and not enough out on the back half of combos, so she gets URs there a lot.

@VGThuy The problem is it only started after international panels started calling those URs out. They should start calling URs out way down in Pre-pre and Preliminary so skaters can fix it well before they hit triples and develop a 10 year+ long habit of URs. Part of my problem with that as well was that it seemed to be used as a punishment or political tool: if you were in USFS's good graces they'd ignore your URs; if you weren't they'd give out those URs to make sure you were bumped down a spot or two - and that's a whole lot easier than manipulating the whole panel.

Agreed...I would include Gracie Gold in that group with great technique. Do we know anything about her competitive plans for this season?

I remember she backed out of joining the Johnny Weir academy because she wanted to continue competing but sustained some type of injury over the summer. That was the last I heard. I hope she is on the mend and I hope that she makes it back to Nationals.

 

[Sylvia]

Agreed...I would include Gracie Gold in that group with great technique. Do we know anything about her competitive plans for this season?

Gracie did not compete in a NQS qualifying competition (dealing with an injury) so no Nationals for her; she has been busy coaching.

Expect to see a lot of publicity for her upcoming memoir - GSD thread:

Gracie Gold's memoir published February 2024

Starting a thread for news and information about Gracie Gold's memoir that's scheduled to be published on February 6, 2024, according to Gracie's August 2nd IG post: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cvcmf4huO6i/ When I sat down to write my book, I wanted to offer an inside look into the...

www.fsuniverse.net

ETA:

Eastern Sectional Senior Women SP is coming up today on Peacock (Junior Women SP currently is in progress). I'm posting in the U.S. Sectionals thread in the Kiss & Cry section and will try to recap here later.

 

[layman]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2324/gpfra2023/FSKWSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Yikes! I was just looking over the protocols for the long program at Grand Prix de France (where Isabeau came in 3rd). She eked out the overall win here, but it looks like the judges decided to pay attention to (jump) technique at this competition. Isabeau's GOE was not very high. That allowed Nina Pinzarrone (of Belgium) to move ahead of her in the LP program with practically the same technical content but better GOE. Rion Sumiyoshi with a clean quad toe, moved ahead of her too. This is a big warning to Isabeau's coaches.

 

[tony]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2324/gpfra2023/FSKWSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Yikes! I was just looking over the protocols for the long program at Grand Prix de France (where Isabeau came in 3rd). She eked out the overall win here, but it looks like the judges decided to pay attention to (jump) technique at this competition. Isabeau's GOE was not very high. That allowed Nina Pinzarrone (of Belgium) to move ahead of her in the LP program with practically the same technical content but better GOE. Rion Sumiyoshi with a clean quad toe, moved ahead of her too. This is a big warning to Isabeau's coaches.

Did you watch the program?

 

[layman]

Did you watch the program?

Just did...I don't know what to say.

She started off pretty strong (for Isabeau) but as the program went on she just looked slow and tentative...there was no speed into or out of her jumps and they looked even more labored and muscled than they usually do.

I do see this as a wake up call. They need to bring in someone ASAP to help her address these technical issues.

 

[Evgeniafan]

Just did...I don't know what to say.

She started off pretty strong (for Isabeau) but as the program went on she just looked slow and tentative...there was no speed into or out of her jumps and they looked even more labored and muscled than they usually do.

I do see this as a wake up call. They need to bring in someone ASAP to help her address these technical issues.

They do, because its only going to get worse. Even a training camp with Rafael or go to Chambery when Briand is there.

 

[Debbie S]

Agree Isabeau needs to improve her jump technique but let's keep in mind that everyone can have a bad day.

Good luck to the women competing at Easterns today!

 

[layman]

I have to give Alysa Liu credit. When she started struggling, she sought out and got the technical help that she needed.