U.S. Women [#3]: Skating Clean

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The realness Amber Glenn has a somewhat of a mini look-alike in Junior Lorine from France. They even have the same taste in music preferences

Amber is more blonde and I think less tall though

Well damn her coach also has a look alike… Jaime Sale.

 

[Sylvia]

It was very cool to see Naomi Nari Nam coaching Elyce. How long has she been coaching for now?

Nam has been coaching with Amy Evidente for a while now (Themi Leftheris also helps out) - Elyce Lin-Gracey's post after Glacier Falls Summer Classic (where she landed 3Lz+3T for the first time in her SP) mentions them: https://www.instagram.com/p/CgvMjQZprFj/

They also coach 2022 U.S. Junior bronze medalist Josephine Lee who is moving up to Senior and is scheduled to compete in JGP #4 in Armenia.

ETA:

Mia Kalin is in 3rd place after the SP in Ostrava with a new ISU PB score (59.24). Back in June she got to meet Ludovico Einaudi (composer of her FS music) when he was in Oakland, CA for his tour - her photos: https://www.instagram.com/p/Ce7sAHyrI6U/ & https://www.instagram.com/p/CfJnrXDFNIF/

Lin-Gracey is in 6th (56.15) despite stepping out her 3Lz/no combo in Ostrava earlier today. The Junior women finish on Saturday.

 

[Sylvia]

Originally posted on July 22:

7 different U.S. women have received 2022 ISU Grand Prix assignments ...

Isabeau Levito (GP debut): #1 Skate America & #4 MK John Wilson Trophy in GBR
Lindsay Thorngren (GP debut): #2 Skate Canada International & #6 Espoo FIN
Audrey Shin: #3 Internationaux de France & #5 NHK Trophy
Bradie Tennell: #4 MKJW Trophy #6 Espoo FIN
Amber Glenn: #1 Skate America & #5 NHK Trophy
Gabriella Izzo (GP debut): #4 MKJW Trophy
Starr Andrews: #5 NHK Trophy

3rd spot TBD at Skate America (perhaps at Champs Camp again?)

As was reported in other threads on August 31, Gracie Gold got the Skate America host spot! That makes her the 8th U.S. woman to be selected for a Grand Prix this fall.

Starr Andrews received a second GP on Sept. 1 - Skate Canada International.

Bradie has been added to Team North America (joining Mariah Bell) - link to today's post by @YukiNieve in the Japan Open thread:

2022 Japan Open, October 8 + Carnival on Ice gala

Website: https://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/japanopen2022/ Venue: Saitama Super Arena "1st to 3rd place will be determined in a team competition where the total score of the singles (free skate performance) is used as the total score of the team." Skaters...

www.fsuniverse.net

ETA:

I've posted the link to Phil Hersh's Sept. 2nd article on Bradie in her coaching change thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...nnounces-coaching-change.109863/#post-6291186

 

[mtnskater]

Have the US coaches and USFS recognized the rule changes to devalue quads and the increased importance of skating skills and artistry? Many of the US women (and men) are not up to par in the skating skills department, at least as compared to Japan and Korea (judging from the Junior Grand Prix so far.) Where is Yuka Sato these days? Maybe USFS needs to hire her to work regularly with skaters like Mia Kalin, etc. Quite a few of U.S. top singles are taught by coaches with a Russian background where skating skills are not the emphasis. OTOH some of the juniors from Japan and Korea I’m seeing are so well rounded and accomplished at such young ages you have to wonder if they’ve had a childhood. That’s not great either.

I’m interested in what others think.

 

[Willin]

@mtnskater I think this will work itself out. It already is with Mia Kalin: the US and international judges are sending her a very strong message that quads alone aren't enough. Of course it will take a while for US skaters to improve, and that will only happen when their results get affected.

But they don't need to work with top coaches. I think the best way USFS could do this would be to encourage elite track skaters to take their dance or solo dance tests - maybe provide funding/free testing for that track to the younger skaters they scout? There are several skaters like Karen Chen who excel because they took ice dance lessons. Many big cities have plenty of ice dance coaches for the elite skaters who would need help.

 

[sk9tingfan]

@mtnskater I think this will work itself out. It already is with Mia Kalin: the US and international judges are sending her a very strong message that quads alone aren't enough. Of course it will take a while for US skaters to improve, and that will only happen when their results get affected.

But they don't need to work with top coaches. I think the best way USFS could do this would be to encourage elite track skaters to take their dance or solo dance tests - maybe provide funding/free testing for that track to the younger skaters they scout? There are several skaters like Karen Chen who excel because they took ice dance lessons. Many big cities have plenty of ice dance coaches for the elite skaters who would need help.

And tell Hanna Harrell to stop doing every jump a la Rippon.

 

[her grace]

I think it’s more a problem of not having consistent well-rounded skaters. For the junior women, Seo and Lin-Gracey had great basics, but not consistent jumps. Seo can certainly compete with and beat Korean and Japanese skaters when she hits.

For the men, Xie has great PCS, but not a consistent axel. Zharkov and Kovar have the harder jumps and have developing PCS—maybe not Japanese level, but definitely not bad, a solid B.

 

[Frau Muller]

@mtnskater I think this will work itself out. It already is with Mia Kalin: the US and international judges are sending her a very strong message that quads alone aren't enough. ….

Mia Kalin and her team haven’t gotten the memo that the Sambo-70 way & aesthetic are DEAD. On the positive side: at least they’ve stopped dressing her in black onesies with red highlights, a-la-Valieva.

 

[Willin]

@her grace I think one of the biggest issues is just US coaching. It seems in Japan and Korea coaches are usually a jack of all trades - they can coach anything. In the US this used to be common: John Nicks, Frank Carroll, etc. Now elite-track skaters have a main coach - and then a jump coach, spin coach, off ice coach, MITF coach, etc. So now instead of finding one or two quality coaches who keep things consistent you have to find 3+ coaches who may contradict each other and may or may not work well together. And on the coaching side you get some coaches very

USFS needs to focus on developing good all around coaches who may get someone on the side to help with something very niche (say, skating skills). I've always believed that would be the best path to success and it would lower costs and increase access to quality coaching.

@Frau Muller To be fair, Isabeau Levito is still very Eteri and she's succeeding. I'd say the difference is Isabeau is more Evgenia (awful jump technique but a good performer) as opposed to a Trusova like Mia (quads and nothing else).

 

[Karen-W]

@her grace I think one of the biggest issues is just US coaching. It seems in Japan and Korea coaches are usually a jack of all trades - they can coach anything. In the US this used to be common: John Nicks, Frank Carroll, etc. Now elite-track skaters have a main coach - and then a jump coach, spin coach, off ice coach, MITF coach, etc. So now instead of finding one or two quality coaches who keep things consistent you have to find 3+ coaches who may contradict each other and may or may not work well together. And on the coaching side you get some coaches very

USFS needs to focus on developing good all around coaches who may get someone on the side to help with something very niche (say, skating skills). I've always believed that would be the best path to success and it would lower costs and increase access to quality coaching.

@Frau Muller To be fair, Isabeau Levito is still very Eteri and she's succeeding. I'd say the difference is Isabeau is more Evgenia (awful jump technique but a good performer) as opposed to a Trusova like Mia (quads and nothing else).

I don't think it's necessarily bad to have coaches who specialize in certain areas, but all of them need to be of the same or similar mindset when it comes to teaching fundamentals, technique, skating skills, etc, and, as you said, give the skater a consistent approach in every aspect of their skating. I'm not sure how this gets fixed without a huge re-think in how skating operates in the US, with the parents/person paying the bills making the decisions on who they're going to for coaching in these different areas.

 

[mtnskater]

@her grace I think one of the biggest issues is just US coaching. It seems in Japan and Korea coaches are usually a jack of all trades - they can coach anything. In the US this used to be common: John Nicks, Frank Carroll, etc. Now elite-track skaters have a main coach - and then a jump coach, spin coach, off ice coach, MITF coach, etc. So now instead of finding one or two quality coaches who keep things consistent you have to find 3+ coaches who may contradict each other and may or may not work well together. And on the coaching side you get some coaches very

USFS needs to focus on developing good all around coaches who may get someone on the side to help with something very niche (say, skating skills). I've always believed that would be the best path to success and it would lower costs and increase access to quality coaching.

@Frau Muller To be fair, Isabeau Levito is still very Eteri and she's succeeding. I'd say the difference is Isabeau is more Evgenia (awful jump technique but a good performer) as opposed to a Trusova like Mia (quads and nothing else).

Those are interesting points @Willin. But I would say there is no way Mie Hamada can coach as the “jack of all trades“ coach the huge stable of skaters she has in Japan. And you would think here in the U.S. the main coach would ensure the quality of all the other coaches who are included in the team.

How are skaters funded in Japan and Korea? Do they get substantial government assistance? Its very true that in the US becoming an elite skater is a very expensive proposition and the money has to come from private means to develop a skater. I’m amazed at the large number of high level skaters participating in the sport in Japan and Korea particularly if their parents are mostly footing the bill like here. Although skaters are such big celebrities in those countries, maybe the parents consider the investment worth the risk. Here you don’t even get a college scholarship opportunity with figure skating, unlike many other sports, including gymnastics.

It will take a long time to develop coaches so I think USFS needs to come up with in interim solution. USFS has done well beefing up the pairs program in a fairly short time. I think the same can be done with skating skills.

In any event, I’m sure Mia Kalin’s team, if they didn’t realize it before, will realize now that her second mark still needs serious attention. And the focus cannot be principally jumps with the scoring changes. Though I will say she presented better in the short program than the free in Ostrava, so I can tell they are working on it. I felt so bad for her when she started to cry after her marks came up.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Just finished watching the ladies free skate in Ostrava, oh my gosh Mia had two quads and no one sent me a fax? She has two quads one of them in combo and could not stay on the podium? This makes about as much sense as me not having a drink right now

If an Eteri girl did this she would be untouchable by 500 miles, I don’t think her skating skills are that inferior to take her down a notch with two quads and of fall on another element

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Everywhere I look these days I see Hamada, how many people does she coach? My goodness. And she splits her time in Colorado as well?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

OMGGGG Mia Second mark takes a huge huge hit compared to those above her and below her. Why?

 

[Karen-W]

OMGGGG Mia Second mark takes a huge huge hit compared to those above her and below her. Why?

You just said you watched her program and you can't see why her PCS took a big hit? For starters, her "choreo sequence" was as empty as the Empty Quarter on the Arabian Peninsula. Plus, she's still slow as a tortoise, especially in her spins. She also had a fall on a clearly under-rotated 3lo - and when I say clearly, let me remind you, I'm just as no-teknik as you and I saw it in real time before she fell.

But, maybe look at it this way - she improved her PB by around 20 points from last season. And she's got all the time in the world to keep improving before the next Olympic season, which is the first that she'll be eligible for seniors. I'm thoroughly impressed with her 4T - that jump looks GREAT and even more reliable than it was last season. She has lots of work still to do, but she'll get there.

ETA - whoops - no fall on the 3lo - but she stumbled out of it and it was clearly UR. The fall was on the solo 3z before.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

You just said you watched her program and you can't see why her PCS took a big hit? For starters, her "choreo sequence" was as empty as the Empty Quarter on the Arabian Peninsula. Plus, she's still slow as a tortoise, especially in her spins. She also had a fall on a clearly under-rotated 3lo - and when I say clearly, let me remind you, I'm just as no-teknik as you and I saw it in real time before she fell.

But, maybe look at it this way - she improved her PB by around 20 points from last season. And she's got all the time in the world to keep improving before the next Olympic season, which is the first that she'll be eligible for seniors. I'm thoroughly impressed with her 4T - that jump looks GREAT and even more reliable than it was last season. She has lots of work still to do, but she'll get there.

Girl I’ve already spit out all of my greygoose all over my tablet after just read the first few sentences of the first paragraph. You’re my kind of people, always will be

 

[Willin]

@mtnskater I think well coordinated coaching teams as we see with pair's can be a very good thing, as can specialized coaches - but as an off season consult rather than throughout the season. But the most important part is a good all around coach that can provide stability and clear guidance throughout the season - which isn't happening right now. I think Japan and Korea have better centralized training schools.

I don't have much hope for Mia and Co getting the message. She's gotten the PCS and non-quad GOE dump many times by now - domestically and internationally - and yet they don't seem to be trying to fix or change anything. It's a shame because she's obviously a hard worker, but they don't seem to care to make sure she's putting work into the things that will get her good results. I'm wondering what they're thinking and doing/

 

[Karen-W]

I don't have much hope for Mia and Co getting the message. She's gotten the PCS and non-quad GOE dump many times by now - domestically and internationally - and yet they don't seem to be trying to fix or change anything. It's a shame because she's obviously a hard worker, but they don't seem to care to make sure she's putting work into the things that will get her good results. I'm wondering what they're thinking and doing/

I know you're in the Bay Area, @Willin, and have better connections/inside info on the elite skaters there, so I trust that you have some idea of what her team is or is not doing, but I do believe there have been some incremental improvements in Mia's skating compared to last year on the JGP. There is still major room for improvement though, but how much more can the USFS do to encourage her team to focus their efforts on the PCS side?

 

[Trillian]

How are skaters funded in Japan and Korea? Do they get substantial government assistance? Its very true that in the US becoming an elite skater is a very expensive proposition and the money has to come from private means to develop a skater. I’m amazed at the large number of high level skaters participating in the sport in Japan and Korea particularly if their parents are mostly footing the bill like here.

I don’t know a ton about the developmental tracks in Japan and Korea. But the general differences in geography, income inequality, etc., from the U.S. almost certainly play a role. A lot of people in the U.S. don’t live anywhere near a rink with a USFS club, and even fewer live near a high level training facility. Of those who do, many can’t afford to get involved in figure skating at all, or wouldn’t make the financial decision to do so when things like health care and education cost as much as they do in the U.S., and most families who can afford Learn to Skate can’t afford to pay for figure skating at a high level for years. Even those who can mostly don’t have endless pockets or mobility. So we have a tiny percentage of parents paying for what they can afford within varying geographic limits, which may or may not include all the things their kids need to be well-rounded skaters. Frankly, I’m more surprised that it still works as well as it does. But we’re not going to magically catch up with Japan anytime soon.

 

[her grace]

Many of the US women (and men) are not up to par in the skating skills department, at least as compared to Japan and Korea (judging from the Junior Grand Prix so far.)

Reflecting on this more, one problem that singles skating has is that there are so many coaches in the U.S. of varying degree of quality. So kids can start out and never learn good basics because the coaches are competing for students and whomever can get the kids the tangible skills fastest (i.e. jumps) are more likely to get the students. This isn't a problem in American dance because there's a lot fewer coaches, most of very high quality, so if you're lucky enough to live near the good ones, you're going to develop correctly.

Additionally, Korea is not better than the U.S. at skating skills. Fifth place Seo beat 3rd place Kim in SS at JGP #1. 8th place Gracey beat 2nd place Kwon in SS in the SP, though she did lose that mark in the FS after Kwon went clean and she struggled.

What Korean ladies are more likely to do than American ladies is cover up average skating skills by focusing on the Presentation mark and doing a character piece, e.g., Young You's POTC or Kwon's Cats. When's the last time a U.S. junior lady went out and skated a character piece and let her sparkling personality carry the performance? Yeah, I can't think of it. American ladies are too busy skating to serious music and being mature. If there is an SS gap, they aren't leaning into other program components to compensate.

 

[PRlady]

Reflecting on this more, one problem that singles skating has is that there are so many coaches in the U.S. of varying degree of quality. So kids can start out and never learn good basics because the coaches are competing for students and whomever can get the kids the tangible skills fastest (i.e. jumps) are more likely to get the students. This isn't a problem in American dance because there's a lot fewer coaches, most of very high quality, so if you're lucky enough to live near the good ones, you're going to develop correctly.

Additionally, Korea is not better than the U.S. at skating skills. Fifth place Seo beat 3rd place Kim in SS at JGP #1. 8th place Gracey beat 2nd place Kwon in SS in the SP, though she did lose that mark in the FS after Kwon went clean and she struggled.

What Korean ladies are more likely to do than American ladies is cover up average skating skills by focusing on the Presentation mark and doing a character piece, e.g., Young You's POTC or Kwon's Cats. When's the last time a U.S. junior lady went out and skated a character piece and let her sparkling personality carry the performance? Yeah, I can't think of it. American ladies are too busy skating to serious music and being mature. If there is an SS gap, they aren't leaning into other program components to compensate.

Serious music wouldn’t be so bad. It’s the angsty GFBs that make their programs such downers. Watching the girl who skated to Ozzie Osbourne and Metallica, I thought I’d give a lot for more US girls to skate to rock or even metal; we invented the damn music in the first place!

 

[Evgeniafan]

Just finished watching the ladies free skate in Ostrava, oh my gosh Mia had two quads and no one sent me a fax? She has two quads one of them in combo and could not stay on the podium? This makes about as much sense as me not having a drink right now

If an Eteri girl did this she would be untouchable by 500 miles, I don’t think her skating skills are that inferior to take her down a notch with two quads and of fall on another element

It was very sad to see her cry. And her quads were great. I think she lost focus after landing them. She is young, and I think she has improved a lot in one year, . I really like her.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

It was very sad to see her cry. And her quads were great. I think she lost focus after landing them. She is young, and I think she has improved a lot in one year, . I really like her.

Really impressed with Mia. Her quad technique looks like it last. Plus, she looks more an grown up height. She needs more muscular development, maybe? And of course the PCS. She has a lot of room to increase her GOE, too. But, she looks to have good nerves; after the 2 messed up jumps she got back on track with two 3-3's later. Really interested to see how she develops.

 

[mtnskater]

I don't have much hope for Mia and Co getting the message. She's gotten the PCS and non-quad GOE dump many times by now - domestically and internationally - and yet they don't seem to be trying to fix or change anything. It's a shame because she's obviously a hard worker, but they don't seem to care to make sure she's putting work into the things that will get her good results. I'm wondering what they're thinking and doing/

Mia is in the Bay Area!? Last I knew Massimo Scali is there too. Look at the improvements Alysa Liu made in a short time with him. USFS needs to do an intervention here. Mia is only 14 and has time to make the needed improvement in the PCS. I‘m really bummed to hear that her team is letting her down. But that PCS score in Ostrava told the story.

 

[Frau Muller]

[….

@Frau Muller To be fair, Isabeau Levito is still very Eteri and she's succeeding. I'd say the difference is Isabeau is more Evgenia (awful jump technique but a good performer) as opposed to a Trusova like Mia (quads and nothing else).

Hmm…Isabeau has musicality, flow, artistry…and SMILES as she skates, radiating JOY!!! Definitely not Sambo-70 way, IMO. Even Lindsay T, a less emotional skater than Isabeau, radiates a natural joy.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I feel like people think USFSA controls a lot more than they do, especially when it comes to developmental skating.

 

[Sylvia]

It was very sad to see her cry. And her quads were great. I think she lost focus after landing them. She is young, and I think she has improved a lot in one year, . I really like her.

I see improvements in Mia's basic skating since last season as well.

 

[Willin]

I know you're in the Bay Area, @Willin, and have better connections/inside info on the elite skaters there, so I trust that you have some idea of what her team is or is not doing, but I do believe there have been some incremental improvements in Mia's skating compared to last year on the JGP. There is still major room for improvement though, but how much more can the USFS do to encourage her team to focus their efforts on the PCS side?

Mia is in the Bay Area!? Last I knew Massimo Scali is there too. Look at the improvements Alysa Liu made in a short time with him. USFS needs to do an intervention here. Mia is only 14 and has time to make the needed improvement in the PCS. I‘m really bummed to hear that her team is letting her down. But that PCS score in Ostrava told the story.

I'm pretty out of the gossip loop these days. I've also never actually seen Mia in person as opposed to Alysa who I would see weekly. I've also never met or seen her coach. So I have no clue what Mia's situation is - if anything her training is very, very unusual compared to other elite skaters I've known at that rink through the years.

I feel the difference is this: despite what fans said, Alysa and her Dad seemed to take feedback and go with recommendations from USFS (probably via Justin Dillon, USFS's skater development guy who created a bunch of the new development programs, who used to coach at Oakland). He would send her to outside coaching consults as far away as Europe to help with her skills and brought on Scali and Abbott to help her with the areas she was weakest at. Even back in the day he drove her to far away rinks for jump help. Their only hiccup in that was due to the awful circumstances surrounding the Olympics.

I've never seen or heard anything to suggest Mia or her coach are doing anything similar or seeking outside help. Idk if it's pride on her coach's part or what, but the Bay Area skating community - even just at Oakland - has lots of skating skills, spin, and footwork resources she could be using. All three major Bay Area clubs have coaches, resources, and networks that work together to help top prospects. And I've never heard of her using any of them. So somehow I don't see her coach/parents seeking out Scali or Abbott's help. It's also interesting that her club/rink tends to celebrate and promote her less than skaters they've had with similar success...

I feel like people think USFSA controls a lot more than they do, especially when it comes to developmental skating.

Yup. They're doing a lot more than they used to with camps and seminars for younger elite track skaters, but ultimately they don't control much of anything. I think with the new skater development programs and competition series they're trying much harder than they used to, but that's only for the kids who shine when they're young - and not all successful Seniors/Juniors were good enough to get noticed that young.

 

[Coco]

It's not like the changes Mia would need to make are easy. Changing your carriage and how your blade works with the ice while keeping your jumps is no small feat.

 

[Jammers]

One of the biggest problems in years past with these US Junior girls is that they lack good basic skating skills and speed. Naturally the ones that have good speed and basics like Clare Seo have struggled with rotating their jumps. Gracie was the one US lady in the last decade that had both that's why she was considered a world champion contender at her best which she never really fulfilled.