U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

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Does this mean they won't compete in the US for sectionals and nationals? They are fun to watch on video. Great skills!

Yes they are fun to watch. And they've grown quite a bit physically and in their skill set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpSB-TjbSqA 2014 Juvenile pairs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xxVKm9Ipuw local comp Novice pairs 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07mG30--sDo Pacific coast sectionals 2017 novice pairs

Are their parents originally from Sweden and they were born in the U.S.?
 
Does this mean they [twins Greta & John Crafoord] won't compete in the US for sectionals and nationals?
Yes.

Pairs Scoretracker is updated -- Fields/Stevens and Lockley/Prochnow both had their highest scoring competition so far this summer at Dance-Pairs Chicago this past weekend: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-pairs-scores/

Ashley Cain/Tim LeDuc have been assigned to the ISU Challenger Lombardia Trophy in Bergamo, Italy.
 
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C/T's LP is gorgeous. It felt much shorter than 4.5 minutes.

Lockley/Prochnow look great for this time of year. I think they could do quite well at their JGP event(s) (where hopefully they will not be the only US pair).
 
Just watched Marissa&Mervin's new FP. Some really nice entries/exists into/out of the elements, but also 3Tw and SBS jump problems (again). The latter is par of the course for them, of course, but I wonder about the twist. Have they been reworking their technique? That would explain why it's kinda shaky right now.

102.16, 3rd in free skate/overall (Meagan&Eric withdrew after SP)
Protocol: http://www.patinage.qc.ca/resultats-competitions/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CQE17_23_DET.pdf
I am a bit shocked that the judges put them TEN POINTS behind M-T/Marinara sauce in PCS. Okay, no, I have NOT seen M-T/M skating in person since Skate America, but they would have to have improved a MASSIVE amount to be that much better in basic skating skills, stroking, unison, style, choreography than C/T. I call BS from the judges, and marking down due to errors on elements.
Is it possible for them to not worry about trying to jump in unison, but just jump like they know how to jump so they can get their confidence back on landing jumps!? Has someone looked at them and figured out what's wrong??? This has been going on for awhile, and not getting better. Can they please acknowledge the seriousness of this and see a sports psychologist and a different tech specialist who can actually see what the problem is and help them fix it? They have to face this head on if they want to get past it. Do they train their jumps and throws okay and then end up losing it in competition? I'm asking these questions because I love this team and I want them to succeed. Their tech issues are holding them back. They've got everything else: beauty, style, chemistry, speed, ability. But it looks like there were tech problems from the beginning of their partnership that were never addressed appropriately and have only gotten worse. I realize that fixing a problem in pairs figure skating can be complicated, but it just seems to me that they are confused about what's actually wrong. They can't improve if they don't know what's wrong.
Can you imagine how frustrated they must be?? I've been longing for them to get it together technically. They skate together just BEAUTIFULLY--based on seeing them in person at SA last fall they were among the top in unison and general skating skills, but the technical goofs get them EVERY.TIME. It's gotta suck a lot of the joy out of competing :( I have no doubt they've been doing everything they possibly can, working with every expert they possibly can, to get past it. I'm with you, aftershocks: take the Denney/Coughlin approach and just jump out of flippin' unison :)
 
C/T look beautiful, but if they cannot complete the big elements done routinely by the elite, it won't matter.

I am a bit shocked that the judges put them TEN POINTS behind M-T/Marinara sauce in PCS. Okay, no, I have NOT seen M-T/M skating in person since Skate America, but they would have to have improved a MASSIVE amount to be that much better in basic skating skills, stroking, unison, style, choreography than C/T. I call BS from the judges, and marking down due to errors on elements.

Can you imagine how frustrated they must be?? I've been longing for them to get it together technically. They skate together just BEAUTIFULLY--based on seeing them in person at SA last fall they were among the top in unison and general skating skills, but the technical goofs get them EVERY.TIME. It's gotta suck a lot of the joy out of competing :( I have no doubt they've been doing everything they possibly can, working with every expert they possibly can, to get past it. I'm with you, aftershocks: take the Denney/Coughlin approach and just jump out of flippin' unison :)

I am with you @LilJen. Sure and it's got to be so frustrating. But now @olympic, let's back up and realize that C/T did not start out their partnership with total problems technically. Taking a look back, I would say their difficulties began with the fact that they were forced into a slow start competitively (due to Merv needing to be released by Skate Canada before they could compete internationally). The other part of that is although they received encouragement from people around them, there may also have been a bit of unconscious resistance to their unusual pairing (U.S./Canada, not that it hasn't happened before particularly in ice dance; but in C/T's case, Merv was more associated with being Canadian & previously skating for Japan, than Kaitlyn Weaver has been associated with being from Texas, and than Tanith was associated with being from Canada, and than Piper is associated with being American, especially since her Mom has Canadian roots).

Also, C/T must have initially felt the transition would work more smoothly than it has with dividing themselves between training in Montreal and Boston. Of course, that did not work well and they are now training exclusively in Montreal. Meanwhile, tech issues which should have been obvious from the beginning were not adequately noted and addressed before they simply spiraled out of control, apparently. To me, it seems a matter of different learned technique accompanied by nerves complicating their rhythm on technical execution. Their lack of success then leads to a lack of confidence, and then they can't seem to get the nervousness and hesitation re tech elements out of their minds during competition -- a vicious cycle.

Cain/LeDuc's rise last season shows that new teams need the chance to get out there to compete in order to get better. And they also need a lot of support and encouragement. In view of C/T's individual success with other partners, they likely did not anticipate having so many problems pulling it all together. They have great chemistry and they move together so beautifully. I think they are both wonderful people and very modest and generous with everyone they work with. At this point, they've absolutely got to be more selfish and focused on their goals as a team. Of course, they can continue having lovely personalities, but they've got to beef up the intensity. Just talking the talk without doing the walk and showing increasingly improved results on competitive ice will not cut it for them.

I don't wish to be harsh about this, especially since I'm not directly involved or know them and what their training has been like exactly. I have spoken with Marissa one-on-one previously, so I know how sweet she is as a person. And Merv has such a delightful and mischievous sense of humor. But here goes: C/T need some undivided attention. Gauthier/ Marcotte have a lot of Canadian teams, as well as some young 'on-the-rise' international teams (North Korea, Japan). I'm sure there's a lot of loyalty to Mervin as well as a desire to help C/T improve. But it seemingly is not working for Merv/Marissa in Montreal if the coaching team has been unable to help them figure out the tech problems, which were minor in the beginning, but have simply escalated to an alarming degree. C/T had a great program going at 2016 Skate America -- they had landed their sbs jumps, and were doing great, and then poof: uncharacteristic wobbles on a lift! They lost too many points to make up on that sp lift miscue, and ended up with a disastrous overall showing which obscures how well they had started out at SA before the crazy lift snafu. Gauthier/Marcotte (understandably) were unable to accompany C/T to the most important competition of the season: U.S. Nationals. Okay Julie was there, but she's their choreographer, not a coach. USFS seemingly was supportive initially, but not so much with the Olympics pending, other promising U.S. pairs on the rise, and C/T not showing any marked improvement on crucial tech elements.

Problems like these stem from growing pains, and need to be looked at that way by a coaching team that has time to be more supportive and encouraging. Instead, C/T right from the beginning (at their Skate Canada debut a few seasons ago) began losing ground to M-T/M by a few points, and now the points difference has increased. Seemingly, it's partly politically-based. When M-T/M joined the Montreal camp, eh, a changed dynamic. Why? Because M-T/M needed a lot of help, and they've been getting it and slowly improving, which is to Kirsten/Michael's credit (and I cheer the way they are looking so improved -- I enjoy watching them). But M-T/M have also received some help politically in the scoring events based in Canada vs C/T, right from the beginning. Now there is a more obvious gap technically, but certainly not on skating skills, speed, and style (which C/T at this point should be edging). What is not helping C/T is obviously the unresolved tech problems, but also unfortunately the politics of the situation. C/T were already good stylistically when they paired up, but not enough attention was paid to noticing and resolving tech issues before they got completely out of hand. Meanwhile, Kirsten & Michael needed to repair perceptions re Kirsten's split with Dylan, as well as meld together better and define their style. Michael also needed to improve his partnering skills, line and flexibility. Once Kirsten bit the bullet and moved to Gauthier/Marcotte with Meagan Duhamel's approval (since they were former rivals), it all began to land in place for M-T/M with great coaches and in a supportive environment. In a strange way, it seems to me that M-T/M training in the same environment with C/T has actually benefited M-T/M much more than it has C/T.

That said, I truly hope Marissa & Mervin hang tough and weather these very difficult obstacles. They definitely have the talent. Now they need to examine their will and their intentions, and find the fortitude to endure, and the guidance to make some tough decisions. Sure, they can stay in Montreal if that's where they feel most comfortable (especially in the short term). But if I were them, I would seriously begin scouting out other opportunities to learn in different settings by taking from some other pairs experts. C/T were not at any off-site training camps this summer that I'm aware of, not even the helpful camps in the U.S. with Mozer and Szolkowy. I do hope and pray C/T are simply doing what they can at the moment, and trying to build something stronger together while biding their time for a breakthrough precipitated by making some significant and well-considered changes post this Olympics season. :saint:

Relax and breathe M&M! You have a lot of fans pulling for you! I am so eager to see you skate that beautiful fp cleanly and to watch it evolve over the course of the season. Please read Neurosculpting, by Lisa Wimberger. It's not specifically sports/athletics-focused, but some of the mind-changing tips might be helpful.
 
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It's always great to see more figure skating covered in the mainstream media. It should happen more often than just in the build up to the Olympics season.
 
The competition was held in Canada, wasn't it? :shuffle: I wouldn't read too much into C/T vs M-T/M PCS, I mean one of the judges gave Duhamel & Radford 9.5's for a lot of their PCS, in the debut of their SP which wasn't even clean. :HA!: it'll be much different later on this year so I really wouldn't worry about it.

That said, while I agree they should be closer in PCS to M-T/M, I don't really think the new LP suits their style. It's too quiet for them IMO even if it's a nice program. Stylistically it's a miss for me and I don't really like it.
 
I actually think it fits Mervin stylistically but I agree it doesn't seem to fit them as a team. That said maybe they'll make it work by Nationals.
 
Who will be the pairs breakout stars in 2017-18?

Icenetwork predicts which teams will come into their own this season

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/08/21/245716224


Those predicting are
Lynn Rutherford, Vladislav Luchianov, Philip Hersh, Jean-Christophe Berlot, Sarah S. Brannen, Wei Xiong, Nick McCarvel

U.S.

Cain/LeDuc - 3
Denney/Frazier - 1
Kayne/O'Shea - 1
Scimeca Knierim/Knierim - 1
Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay - 1

 
Scimeca Knierim/Knierim are gonna be the top pairs this season and I'm so excited to see their Chaplin Program and their Short Program sounds promising as well as I love their music choice! I do think Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay may have a chance at the Silver at the US Championships. But Alexa and Chris will get the one and only Olympic Spot. Lynn Rutherford is so bias all the time and although Cain/Leduc may be able to jump they will not over take the Knierims as the Knierims are explosive with their Pair Elements. Let's get the season started!
 
Scimeca Knierim/Knierim are gonna be the top pairs this season and I'm so excited to see their Chaplin Program and their Short Program sounds promising as well as I love their music choice! I do think Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay may have a chance at the Silver at the US Championships. But Alexa and Chris will get the one and only Olympic Spot. Lynn Rutherford is so bias all the time and although Cain/Leduc may be able to jump they will not over take the Knierims as the Knierims are explosive with their Pair Elements. Let's get the season started!
Wow, that is a lot of Knierim love, (not that I mind) but unless you have an inside track with the big guy upstairs, stating your wishes as fact is just that. That ice is slippery out there. Anything could happen. And, it generally does.
 
Wow, that is a lot of Knierim love, (not that I mind) but unless you have an inside track with the big guy upstairs, stating your wishes as fact is just that. That ice is slippery out there. Anything could happen. And, it generally does.
Well I'm putting positive energy into the universe! But frankly the Knierims don't need it. But yes ice is slippery! And clearly I nor anyone can predict the future, but l do think they got this whole season in the bag and will for sure show it with their skating
 
Well I'm putting positive energy into the universe! But frankly the Knierims don't need it. But yes ice is slippery! And clearly I nor anyone can predict the future, but l do think they got this whole season in the bag and will for sure show it with their skating
I definitely think they are the front runners but a lot can happen. Injury, health issues, and the pressure of all the expectations. They were suppose to win nationals in Minnesota and did not. Ashley and Tim have support of USFSA. They have worked with Mozer camp and are willing to get lots of international exposure. Alexa and Chris are limiting their travel and competition. There is still a lot of unknowns to make such broad statements.
 
Does anyone really think any pair besides the Knierims will be chosen for the Olys, or would even deserve it besides them? Want to send me some of whatever you're smoking or taking? K&K are so far and away the best pair we have that any other possibility is too ridiculous to even consider.
 
I definitely think they are the front runners but a lot can happen. Injury, health issues, and the pressure of all the expectations. They were suppose to win nationals in Minnesota and did not. Ashley and Tim have support of USFSA. They have worked with Mozer camp and are willing to get lots of international exposure. Alexa and Chris are limiting their travel and competition. There is still a lot of unknowns to make such broad statements.
Ashley and Tim have a ways to go to even come close to Alexa and Chris on a bad Day. Sorry I'm not on the Ashley and Tim train! She is a very Tall girl and it will be a challenge for them to get the explosive Pair Elements that Alexa and Chris have and as well as some of the other US Pair Teams. But perhaps with more work they can get better Pair Elements and I then may get on the Ashley and Tim train. But let's see how they would hold up on the Grand Prix Circuit and against top World Competitors! Just my opinion but we all have our favorites
 
Ashley and Tim have a ways to go to even come close to Alexa and Chris on a bad Day. Sorry I'm not on the Ashley and Tim train! She is a very Tall girl and it will be a challenge for them to get the explosive Pair Elements that Alexa and Chris have and as well as some of the other US Pair Teams. But perhaps with more work they can get better Pair Elements and I then may get on the Ashley and Tim train. But let's see how they would hold up on the Grand Prix Circuit and against top World Competitors! Just my opinion but we all have our favorites
I am not a huge fan of Ashley and Tim either. But usfsa seems to be really pushing for them. Alexa and Chris are good and best we have but to be honest internationally they do not compare either, especially without the quad twist. I think their biggest challenge will be to hold up under the pressure and expectations. Way too much hype.
 
Alexa and Chris are good and best we have but to be honest internationally they do not compare either, especially without the quad twist. I think their biggest challenge will be to hold up under the pressure and expectations. Way too much hype.
Yes, I agree. Certain challenges do present an uphill battle.

I think Alexa and Chris are an exciting team for the U.S., but cracking into the top three could be a stretch... And, yes, USFS certainly knows how to overhype - that's for sure. But, then again, they have to push someone.
 
^^^^ @Jojo13 Well they're the first USA team to make a GP Final since the Elizabethan Period.
And they came in last place. It is a huge accomplishment and a big deal for a US team to have made the GP Final, I am not down playing if at all. But the pressure and expectations got to them. I feel that they need to focus on skating and resist all the extra stuff being thrown their way because they tend to fall apart. And another team can sneak up on them.
 
Alexa and Chris haven't lost to another US Pair internationally this entire quad. The only time a US pair has ever beaten them is 2016 US Nationals. After that competition, they went to Four Continents and scored the highest LP score (and eventually the highest SP score in Boston) that any US pair has ever received under the new judging system. They're all inconsistent and some of the newer teams are completely unproven and nothing but hype so far.

If we send anybody else but Alexa and Chris to the Olympics, I think the international (non-US) skating community would be completely scratching their heads. :confused: It's not that our other teams aren't very good, but we only have one spot and nobody else can score as high as the Knierims on an off day. An off day for any of our other pairs means not advancing to the long program, right? All just my opinion, but it's an extremely strong argument to send Alexa and Chris no matter what happens at Nationals IMO. :shuffle: I don't see any of our teams challenging them internationally this year unless something drastic happens. I get that people might just like another team more, but, well, get over it quite frankly. :shuffle:

It is what it is and we only have one spot for Pyeongchang with a bronze medal in the team competition on the line. A 10th place in the SP from Cain and Leduc really won't cut it.
 
Alexa and Chris haven't lost to another US Pair internationally this entire quad. The only time a US pair has ever beaten them is 2016 US Nationals. After that competition, they went to Four Continents and scored the highest LP score (and eventually the highest SP score in Boston) that any US pair has ever received under the new judging system. They're all inconsistent and some of the newer teams are completely unproven and nothing but hype so far.

If we send anybody else but Alexa and Chris to the Olympics, I think the international (non-US) skating community would be completely scratching their heads. :confused: It's not that our other teams aren't very good, but we only have one spot and nobody else can score as high as the Knierims on an off day. An off day for any of our other pairs means not advancing to the long program, right? All just my opinion, but it's an extremely strong argument to send Alexa and Chris no matter what happens at Nationals IMO. :shuffle: I don't see any of our teams challenging them internationally this year unless something drastic happens. I get that people might just like another team more, but, well, get over it quite frankly. :shuffle:

It is what it is and we only have one spot for Pyeongchang with a bronze medal in the team competition on the line. A 10th place in the SP from Cain and Leduc really won't cut it.
Well I think in the USA Alexa and Chris have the top us pair team vote for me but..... Internationally if they make mistakes in the short program they too could be at jeopardy of not making a long program. Any of the USA teams we have now could miss the making the long with mistakes in the short. But if Competions are within the USA well I agree they could be held up as the top US Pair. But let's face it they really have not achieved much internationally outside of a top 9 or top 10 at worlds. Now that they have branched out with using Christopher Dean and Rohene Ward let's hope their New programs show some growth and their components Reflect that growth. They are one of my favorites but it's gonna really be up to them to show internationally they are consistent skaters. But I'm rooting for them and all the Teams to be on top of their game.
 
Right they still have to do it again, it's just that all signs point to them doing it. Maybe the tone of that post was a bit harsh but that's the reality the other US pairs are in heading into the Olympic season. I wasn't sure if everyone is aware of how ahead Alexa and Chris are just based on the stats/scores since Sochi. Then there's scoring potential, technical ability, finesse, difficulty, etc. Many reasons.

Everyone else had a lot of extra time last season with the Knierims out... and nobody stepped up but the Knierims in the post-season. We'd have to rely on Nebelhorn right now if not for them, and they'd be exactly the team we'd be sending to the competition to secure the spot. The other US pairs have this GP and challenger season to establish themselves as the top US pair heading into Nationals. If the Knierims, once again, prove to be our top US pair heading into Nationals this season.. :shuffle: we probably won't ever have as clear cut of Olympians before the competition actually starts ever again IMO, in any of the disciplines.

Having one spot really sucks. With only one spot, the team competition makes it matter that much more who gets selected. From here until Nationals is going to mean everything for all of the non-Alexa and Chris pairs.
 
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