U.S. Men in 2017 - articles & latest news

[Rock2]

That's a whole other discussion with so many positives and negatives. If GoE and PCS are scored properly it's great for skating. If they continue to be tools used in questionable ways with athletes it will yes give more skaters a chance but regress skating back to the days of subjectivity driving the result.

I have personally gone against the grain, seeing technical content as the cake the artistry as the icing for an Olympic sport (important). To that end, I never wanted PCS to drive more than 30-40% of the score. But I'm in the minority...

Let the thread drift begin ...
(sorry!)

 

[dr.frog]

I have personally gone against the grain, seeing technical content as the cake the artistry as the icing for an Olympic sport (important). To that end, I never wanted PCS to drive more than 30-40% of the score.

It's important to keep in mind that PCS scores are already diluted compared to the old "presentation" mark, because "skating skills" and "transitions" used to be part of the old "technical merit" mark instead. So essentially the former "presentation" aspects have been reduced to 60% of the PCS. And while the CoP was originally intended to weigh TES and PCS equally, because of jump inflation PCS are now worth more like 45% than 50%, especially for men. If you combine the two factors, the old "presentation" criteria are only worth 27% of the total score as opposed to 50%.

Of course in the 6.0 era judges commonly inflated presentation scores for skaters who could jump like crazy or who had "reputation" even if the performances were comparatively weaker in the things the presentation mark was supposed to represent than those of some skaters who were doing less ambitious jumps. But does anybody really want to argue that the same thing doesn't happen with PCS marks nowadays? Does a competition ever go by when we don't see complaints in this thread that so-and-so wuzrobbed?

 

[skateboy]

I have personally gone against the grain, seeing technical content as the cake the artistry as the icing for an Olympic sport (important). To that end, I never wanted PCS to drive more than 30-40% of the score. But I'm in the minority...

Hear, hear!

 

[skateboy]

Honestly I hate the artificial pressure that the Olympics places on athletes.

Why do you call it "artificial" pressure? I think Olympic pressure is very real.

 

[MAXSwagg]

I've said it before but this cycle's quadsplosion has pushed some wonderful skaters deep into the background. Skaters like Brown are beautiful to watch, but it's a shame how quickly they have become endangered of being irrelevant. Very sad, but that's sport I guess.

I am a Chen fan but wasn't convinced last year a podium would happen for him in Helsinki. I'm in a different place this year. He has Olympic champion written all over him, and his programs are the best out there in the international men's field that I have seen so far. The only question for him will be if he can stay healthy and develop his programs -- jump and non jump content -- to where they need to be in time. I'm optimistic.

Skating is just too hard to handicap. There are so few certainties although there seem to be some. In the men's field I keep shuffling the deck over and over in my mind and can't realistically come up with an Olympic podium with someone other than Nathan, Yuzu and Shoma on it. I just can't see it....but I'm good with it.

I would not count Javier out. He will clearly be adding 4Lo...

 

[skatingguy]

Grant Hochstein‏ @Grant_Hochstein 4h4 hours ago
When you and your fiancée have matching skating costumes. #RelationshipGoals
https://twitter.com/Grant_Hochstein/status/909530233065185280

 

[BittyBug]

Why do you call it "artificial" pressure? I think Olympic pressure is very real.

I don't disagree and reconsidered that adjective after I submitted my post. I guess what I meant by artificial is that is largely manufactured because we make such a big deal about the Olympics. Why is that? For some sports, the pinnacle achievement is not an Olympic medal but some other type of tournament or feat. For example, Wimbledon or Grand Slam for tennis, Stanley Cup for hockey, etc.

Why is an Olympic medal more worthy than a World Championship medal? Because it's rarer? That's an artificial construct and it belies the fact that the actual skating and competition at a World Championship might exceed that of a particular Olympic event, yet we value the Olympic medal more. So I guess that's what prompted my comment, the idea that the hype about Olympics and resulting pressure is manufactured and not entirely rational, or at least to me. But yes, I agree that the pressure is very real - all too real.

Not sure if the above adds any clarity to my muddled thinking.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And there's enough luck that happens because of the year the Olympics fall, plus the one-time skewed in 1992 and 1994, including letting in the pros.

 

[skateboy]

Why is an Olympic medal more worthy than a World Championship medal? Because it's rarer?

Yes, I do believe that is why.

That, and the fact that Olympics probably gets something like 20x the viewers, as opposed to Worlds... considerably more pressure. Olys is the world's biggest party, featuring all the different sports and the pageantry... with figure skating as the marquee event of the winter games.

The Olympics inspire young kids to take up certain sports. Pretty much every competitive figure skater's ultimate dream is to win the Olympics.

 

[Marco]

I enjoy Jason's short but am not a fan of his free skate. Too safe. He brought the house down with Riverdance in 2014 because it was demanding both musically and choreographically, and it built to a big climatic ending. If he had skated something romantic and slow back in 2014 as well, the spot might have gone to Max.

Nathan's programs are wonderful. These are Olympic medalist calibre programs. I appreciate that he is going for multiple quads, but if he could further tidy up the slight sloppiness here and there, he can be golden.

Skating to warhorse music is a good strategy for Max. His focus should be the jumps. Skating to pretty music and trying to be elegant is tiresome for everyone. Given his form and Jason's progress with the quad, I suddenly feel Max's chances rising.

Love Tim's programs but am also a little disappointed that he isn't more on form for this competition. Without a GP, his Olympic chances may already be gone by under-performing here.

Sean's free skate is very enjoyable!

 

[meggonzo]

Has the Skate America TBA spot been announced yet?

 

[olympic]

Has the Skate America TBA spot been announced yet?

I'm not sure, but based on Ross Miner's appearance at Champs Camp, it is assumed that he was given the SA assignment

 

[Tavi]

I enjoy Jason's short but am not a fan of his free skate. Too safe.

Jason's FS is "safe"? In what way?

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

In the men's field I keep shuffling the deck over and over in my mind and can't realistically come up with an Olympic podium with someone other than Nathan, Yuzu and Shoma on it. I just can't see it....but I'm good with it.

The window this year with the quads will make a special situation for the Olympics. Those with the most will probably win. As cool as he appears I can't imagine Chen won't be affected by the Oly hype. He's very inexperienced and given to ignoring the game plan. Fernandez has a real chance. Not as many quads as Jin but you can't dismiss his power in an arena. Put out one of those tour de force performances and he'll be on the podium.

 

[meggonzo]

I'm not sure, but based on Ross Miner's appearance at Champs Camp, it is assumed that he was given the SA assignment

Thanks, that makes sense since he didn't get any other GP assignments.

 

[Bellanca]

I've said it before but this cycle's quadsplosion has pushed some wonderful skaters deep into the background. Skaters like Brown are beautiful to watch, but it's a shame how quickly they have become endangered of being irrelevant. Very sad, but that's sport I guess.

I am a Chen fan but wasn't convinced last year a podium would happen for him in Helsinki. I'm in a different place this year. He has Olympic champion written all over him, and his programs are the best out there in the international men's field that I have seen so far. The only question for him will be if he can stay healthy and develop his programs -- jump and non jump content -- to where they need to be in time. I'm optimistic.

Skating is just too hard to handicap. There are so few certainties although there seem to be some. In the men's field I keep shuffling the deck over and over in my mind and can't realistically come up with an Olympic podium with someone other than Nathan, Yuzu and Shoma on it. I just can't see it....but I'm good with it.

Great post! As a Chen fan myself, obviously I would love to see him on the Olympic podium. However, I do agree w/ @MAXSwagg that Javier should not be overlooked. Right when all eyes are on others, Javier makes a statement. Also, being somewhat of an underdog could certainly work to his advantage.

 

[aftershocks]

I find myself looking at Nathan's SP and enjoying it on its face, but what was said here about it being sort of - skating by numbers, look, I can do something different, instead of really getting into the music is bothersome. It's only September but the feel of the program is just: Nathan showing us "look I can do hip and cool and modern too" and because he doesn't seem into it, it falls totally flat... I dunno I'm rambling.

Yeah, everyone has their opinion, and their faves. With the way Nathan has come out of the blocks this season though, the continued nitpicking is a bit much. IMO, Nathan is looking very good, as well as focused, and much improved on his spins. And IMO, Nathan's already demonstrated his cool, edgy, modern style in his exhibition program last season, and in his show programs during the off-season. That's likely one reason why Shae Lynn and Lori were so inspired to help Nathan bring out more of the 'hip, cool, modern' style he already possesses. For me, neither program is 'put-on' by Nathan in a self-conscious, 'Look what I can do' fashion, as you suggest. Maybe you don't like the music, or can't get into what Nathan's expressing with his sp. I love it, and I think it works quite well within the very challenging confines and strictures of IJS/COP.

Sometimes audiences need to do their homework too re the fact that Nathan plays the piano himself and therefore this music and the musician and the song & lyrics seemingly appeal to him in a way he will likely find stimulating over the course of the season. I applaud Nathan and Shae Lynn for exploring something that's a well done effort and that's fresh and very promising for the Olympic season. All skaters and their choreographers can be hand-cuffed by IJS/COP, so I give Nathan and his team kudos for their creativity and for trying to think outside-the-box. Both Shae Lynn and Lori have done a great job working with Nathan. Thumbs way up from me for both programs.

I think Nathan has a great feel for the music and he also knows how to skate to the music. He's definitely into both programs, although right now his cool style is such that he's not projecting a great deal to the audience in the way that Jason Brown does quite naturally, and that Dai Takahashi did and can do so brilliantly. For Nathan, enhanced expressiveness might come with more maturity. Perhaps Nathan's contained and calm personality will further evolve with more competition experience and life experience. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying every minute of watching this young man continue to grow, to slay, and to up-end status quo apple carts.

... after this comp is over, his new official PB will be 44.40. I simply don't think this performance, on this day, deserved those scores. JMO.

Maybe, but we are dealing with a random PCS scoring system that's never judged equitably across the board for many reasons that have never been appropriately addressed by the ISU. So it is what it is. And Nathan's marks are not out of line from what they've been throwing out to other top quadsters. Shoma moves differently and he may gesture dramatically with more exaggerated expressions, but that does not make him more expressively mature than Nathan. And I don't think Shoma understands the nuances of his music as well as Nathan does (certainly Hanyu and Javi do not, despite their greater maturity of experience).

Shoma and Nathan are both young and both very talented. From how each are looking at this point, I don't see why Nathan's marks on PCS would not be comparable to Shoma's. So, as someone expressed earlier, it's not the actual numbers as much as the relative scoring. But even then, we are talking about PCS manipulation and figure skating scoring that's partly based on politics and reputation.

@misskarne@aftershocks I think my point about being generic on the last two jumping passes/between spins is because [Nathan] uses the generic flowy skating ballet arms. I love the sharp movements on the opening and the step sequence (that chasse in the 3A transition is great) - but it seems very much contemporary dance rather than ballet. The music is also very jazzy/blues/soul with sharp backing beats making ballet arms seem very off. I love the program minus those transitions, ...

I disagree with the bolded part. From my viewing, I see Nathan's arm movements in his sp to be very consistent with the character of the music, as well as the style and theme of the choreography. Also, it might help to remember that ballet today is the foundation for all forms of dance movement. Still, Nathan's arms are not used in a strictly balletic way in his sp. As I said, he stays with the style and character in the way he moves throughout the performance.

I liked Nathan's LP more than the SP in that I feel it has more potential but is still quad-quad-quad, must spin here... Footwork sequence is great! Did anyone else feel the music was a bit disjointed? Haven't seen anyone else yet as I have never bothered with an IN sub due to all the issues they have. Kid could be one of the all time greats, that's for sure.

If you feel that way, perhaps you don't like or understand the music. I see both programs as Olympic worthy. I think it will be exciting to see how they develop further over the course of the season. But for Nathan, this well thought out, strategic debut of both programs is already outstanding.

Goal for Jason? Team bronze? That was mentioned, but, not a trick answer, if Jason makes the team, good chance that he is not selected to participate/compete for team bronze.

As someone already mentioned, Jason already has a Team bronze from Sochi Olympics. Jason's got what it takes as a competitor, and I will never count him out. He's a gamer, and he's always enjoyable to watch.

... than Nathan, Yuzu and Shoma on [the podium]. I just can't see it....but I'm good with it.

As someone mentioned already, don't count out Javi Fernandez. Plus there are some other accomplished contenders, and as expressed many times, anything can happen in figure skating.

... As cool as he appears I can't imagine Chen won't be affected by the Oly hype...

Nathan has never seemed fazed, and he's been setting his eyes on the Olympics, as many young skaters do. I'm sure he has the usual nerves that every competitor experiences, but the key is in knowing how to manage those nerves under a variety of competition circumstances. Nathan is far ahead in that aspect. Plus, as he's indicated previously: Dreaming of a goal and reaching it is not a time to back down or succumb to pressure.

IMO, Nathan seems prepared to handle all that will come his way. Anyway, it's Nathan's imagination, confidence and determination that counts.

 

[shine]

One thing I'd really like to see Nathan work on is to get deeper down in his knees. I think that's frankly what would be holding him back from getting the same level of PCS as Hanyu/Uno/Chan, even if some of his other components are actually better this year. Great SS just makes the performance appear so much more impressive even if you are skating to elevator music and it basically drives how PCS is scored. As much as I like his understated and subtle style, I think he should also work on projecting just a bit more which would improve his PE. I do think he already deserves top scores in CH and IN though, especially in the FS.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Fair comments, and well expressed. However, to some degree each skater's characteristic ways of moving will not necessarily change too much at this point. *Perhaps Nathan could benefit from softer knees, and some postural tweaking here and there (but his posture & confidence is better than many skaters his age).

Overall, I like the way Nathan moves with purpose, commitment and efficient jump technique. Although Hanyu in general has a flowing quality and soft knees, I happen to think that Hanyu could benefit from being less loosey-goosey, and learning how to develop more stretch, and pointing his toes.

Anyway, the U.S. men are looking good -- all of them. It will definitely be a barn burner at U.S. Nats in the men's division.

*ETA:
I actually think the choreo of both Nathan's new programs (especially the sp) does encourage him, likely on purpose, to do a lot of bending in the knees. And he definitely performs the short program in particular with some drama and passion toward the end, even if it isn't readily apparent to some observers.

 

[olympic]

IMO, Jason at Lombardia and Nathan / Max at the US Classic all skated the way they should in September. I am pleased w/ their status. Crossing my fingers that Jason reaches the end of the long and winding road to a quad jump.

Dolensky and Moeller skated well in the SP. I think Dolensky had a PB, but he could've been better in the LP. Moeller tanked in the LP, but he has a nice style and I hope he steps up later in the season.

Looking to Ross this coming week, I hope he follows Max's 'do or die' approach and gives it his all. He has great SS: Posture, stroking, speed but he could use a quad. A year or two ago, JW noted during his commentary that Ross only needs to make an adjustment to the positioning of his shoulders and he would get the 4S. I wonder if that is true.

 

[SmallFairy]

I'm soooo happy with Nathan's new programs. He looked really good, his FS I can totally imagine at OG. That last group...oh, wow!

Max I started to watch....and I adore Max, I want him to go to Korea so much!!! ....but that POTO....I just can't. It was so zzzzz I totally lost interest. Ok, I despise the music, but still....

 

[Stephanie]

Ross Miner is officially listed for Skate America now: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents...gp-6/series-files-10/entries/7516-gp-men/file

 

[Rock2]

I would not count Javier out. He will clearly be adding 4Lo...

I don't count anyone out, truthfully. But I see the 3 I quoted as clear front runners who have both content and best ability to skate well even in a full field of healthy guys all crushing their performances.

 

[Rock2]

Why is an Olympic medal more worthy than a World Championship medal? Because it's rarer? That's an artificial construct and it belies the fact that the actual skating and competition at a World Championship might exceed that of a particular Olympic event, yet we value the Olympic medal more.

The Olympics reach and are consumed by the general international market, many of whom are not even sports fans, let alone skating fans. Worlds are mostly consumed by skating fans. More exposure, more importance. Also the value of an Olympic medal/gold to a skater is of orders of magnitude more valuable financially. Tons at stake in money and exposure.

And then, just being a favorite going into Olympic year means tons of $$ for athletes in sponsorships which they will not turn down. So it's a big deal in that respect, too.

Net net there is nothing artificial about the dynamic. Dollars and eyeballs go up considerably in the lead up to and including Olympics versus worlds. Completely quantifiable.

Part of the training of these athletes, then, is to stay in their bubble and in their minds convince themselves that Olympics aren't that big of a deal. And/or...define success for themselves in other ways than winning and Olympic medal to deflect the pressure. Tons of techniques to minimize the importance. So take heart that the athletes are getting great training on this despite any hurricane of attention in (social) media.

 

[Rock2]

One thing I'd really like to see Nathan work on is to get deeper down in his knees. I think that's frankly what would be holding him back from getting the same level of PCS as Hanyu/Uno/Chan, even if some of his other components are actually better this year. Great SS just makes the performance appear so much more impressive even if you are skating to elevator music and it basically drives how PCS is scored. As much as I like his understated and subtle style, I think he should also work on projecting just a bit more which would improve his PE. I do think he already deserves top scores in CH and IN though, especially in the FS.

Agreed, but....

I myself cringe as I bring this up, but we have seen in the international ladies landscape that great SS not needed if you land a bunch of difficult jumps consistently.

Couldn't help myself. I will now back into the darkness with my shame.

 

[vesperholly]

One thing I'd really like to see Nathan work on is to get deeper down in his knees. I think that's frankly what would be holding him back from getting the same level of PCS as Hanyu/Uno/Chan, even if some of his other components are actually better this year. Great SS just makes the performance appear so much more impressive even if you are skating to elevator music and it basically drives how PCS is scored. As much as I like his understated and subtle style, I think he should also work on projecting just a bit more which would improve his PE. I do think he already deserves top scores in CH and IN though, especially in the FS.

Yes ... his program just seemed like Chan-lite, without the gorgeous PCS to back it up.

 

[shine]

Yes ... his program just seemed like Chan-lite, without the gorgeous PCS to back it up.

Eh, that is not what I meant in my post at all. I found his program and interpretation pretty mesmerizing actually...but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Willin]

I wonder if it would help skating skills if more ice dance testing/training was encouraged for international competitors? I know a few of the younger skaters like Dinh Tran have competed in a couple solo dance competitions during the off season for major singles competitions (February/March).

Tbh, since solo dance is becoming more popular I wonder how many top US singles skaters are taking those tests or doing ice dance training to improve skating skills? Those judges are harsh (most of the judges for my tests were National/International Gold judges because there's so few young judges going into ice dance judging). They also judge performance quality (facial expression, moving to the music, posture, etc.), so maybe that would help develop PCS more?

 

[jlai]

Yes ... his program just seemed like Chan-lite, without the gorgeous PCS to back it up.

One thing I'd really like to see Nathan work on is to get deeper down in his knees. I think that's frankly what would be holding him back from getting the same level of PCS as Hanyu/Uno/Chan, even if some of his other components are actually better this year. Great SS just makes the performance appear so much more impressive even if you are skating to elevator music and it basically drives how PCS is scored. As much as I like his understated and subtle style, I think he should also work on projecting just a bit more which would improve his PE. I do think he already deserves top scores in CH and IN though, especially in the FS.

I like Nathan, though I admit, the programs would be more glorious had he skated with deeper knee bend and more power.
Having said that, skaters with the deepest knee bend and/or power stroking aren't always the ones willing to put out interesting programs. Doesn't Chan often skate to a war horse? Granted, he makes glorious war horses. Uno doesn't have the most innovative programs either, and he's had his share of war horses. Javier also skates within his comfort zone too. And remember Joubert and his Matrix?

 

[aftershocks]

Hmmm, with all the nitpicking, flat-out dissing, tripping, and questioning, mixed with enthusiastic praise, acknowledgment of his improvements, and anxiety that he might win it all and retire to Harvard, methinks Nathan Chen is doing exactly what's right for him and he's on the right track.

No one can please all of the critics all of the time. Nathan had me at hello, and I appreciate the journey, no matter how long, how far, nor exactly what happens and what I see and experience along the way.