U.S. Ladies [#25]: Method in the Madness

Status
Not open for further replies.
Carolla5501 said:
Ummm……. Am I the only skeptic going the skater's "AGENCY" is talking about this.... And we are now discussing a skater that doesn't get much attention?? Hmm..... Wonder if there might be guilt on both sides???
Click to expand...

You're not the only skeptic. Maybe there's a misunderstanding on both sides, blown up out of proportion. It's also possible there isn't any guilt on either side, that this is an attempt to create some drama for commercial and/or skating politics purposes. This seems to be a sequel to a movie we've seen before. Anybody remember several years ago, when the narrative was all the Japanese skaters were picking on Yuna Kim at competition practices? Color me suspicious--I can't for a minute fathom that Rafael would put up with actual bullying from ANY of his skaters...not at a daily training venue and not at a competition. I'm interested to hear about the specific examples that Eunsoo's management will put forth...
 
Wyliefan said:
There's a thread here about the allegations. I honestly don't know what to think. It seems so unlike Mariah -- and unlike Raf to allow anything of the kind to go on among his students. On the other hand, we don't always know what's going on behind the scenes, and I don't want to just dismiss the story out of hand without knowing exactly what happened. I hope a proper investigation is done to get to the bottom of this. Especially since Mariah is now being harassed on Instagram over it.
https://twitter.com/lynnneposts/status/1108309832489066502?s=19
Click to expand...
So in this twitter thread, one of the articles apparently reports that Eunsoo and Mariah have different sessions and use different locker rooms due to the issues because the rink/team knows about it.

I've seen people responding to Adam on IG mad at him for defending Mariah and saying that he wouldn't have any idea if bullying was happening. Now, it's true that he wouldn't necessarily know if something was going on, but the rink having to completely separate them is something he would likely know about. And he says that didn't happen here.

They’re on the ice at the same time every day and share the same locker room that I also sit in.
Click to expand...

So I am a bit sceptical of that specific claim, at least. As for the rest, who knows.
 
I don't think we can say, "Oh Raf would never allow that," because who knows really. Maybe he just decided it was all "girl drama" he didn't want to get involved with. What I do find rather difficult to believe is that it devolved to such a level that they need seperate locker rooms and practice sessions and that none of the usual gossip purveyors have heard a peep (because it would have made amazing click fodder).
 
Rukia said:
I don't think we can say, "Oh Raf would never allow that," because who knows really. Maybe he just decided it was all "girl drama" he didn't want to get involved with. What I do find rather difficult to believe is that it devolved to such a level that they need seperate locker rooms and practice sessions and that none of the usual gossip purveyors have heard a peep (because it would have made amazing click fodder).
Click to expand...

This all sounds like made up drama - but I am happy to be proven wrong if other facts come out. Sounds like there's some management company that want Eun Soo to beat Mariah here at Worlds. Beyond that, nothing makes sense.
 
Never heard of a skater's agency doing this. Kinda weird. I do remember Adam being accused so that's probably why he's hyper sensitive. I remember when people said the same about Denis Ten intentionally injuring Yuzu. Even when he passed people still brought that up. Well, I'll wait for the facts. If this turns out to be nothing but a misunderstanding from something like cultural difference or hyperbole and Mariah does bad in the FS because of it though, that would be so incredibly unfortunate. I hope both shut their phones off and concentrate on the competition.
 
Rukia said:
I don't think we can say, "Oh Raf would never allow that," because who knows really. Maybe he just decided it was all "girl drama" he didn't want to get involved with. What I do find rather difficult to believe is that it devolved to such a level that they need seperate locker rooms and practice sessions and that none of the usual gossip purveyors have heard a peep (because it would have made amazing click fodder).
Click to expand...

Skaters (with or without Federation help) are paying Raf considerable cash for coaching and anything that disrupts the productive rhythm of the rink is a potential distraction for ALL skaters training not to mention a potential liability risk. No coach in his right mind would allow whatever personal dramas there are (and it's a big assumption on your part to assume there were any) to fester and propagate. And Raf, whatever his shortcomings might be, definitely appears to be in his right mind.

I find it very difficult to believe that a 22-year old adult woman is going around bullying a 16-year old girl. What would be the point? This "bullying during training" may end up boiling down to Eunsoo gives way on the ice to Mariah more than the other way around and it makes her unhappy. Or Mariah said something sharp to her in passing on-ice or off-ice, something that in the context of US culture would be innocuous and roll off a typical American recipient, but upsetting to a foreign teen recipient. But again, let's see if the management company will enumerate a pattern of Mariah's actions that constitutes "bullying".
 
Last edited:
I am extremely skeptical at this point. The pictures provided don’t actually show anything. I did notice the ankle Eunsoo is holding is the skate wrapped in silver tape so maybe there is a previous issue with her skate/ankle that was bothering her. It also doesn’t make sense that Mariah would do this in a public practice at worlds, where others could see it and/or she could be hurt herself.

I admittedly don’t know Mariah but this does not appear to match her personality and does not seem like something Raf would allow to occur. I appreciate Adam speaking out, as he has trained there. I hope someone can check with rink management/Raf to verify the situation quickly so it can be resolved.
 
With all due respect to Adam, his saying that he trains at the rink sometimes and hasn’t seen any bullying therefore it isn’t happening is the same as when people come forward and say that some man accused of sexual harassment didn’t harass them or they have never seen it and that is supposed to be in some way relevant. It isn’t and quite frankly, neither are Adam’s observations, and neither are people’s take on Mariah’s personality.

I have no idea what is going on, if anything, but suggesting that someone is lying when they accuse someone of bullying is wrong. As to the collision, no one but Mariah know whether or not it was intentional. Hopefully there is a video that will help if there is an investigation. At this point the only thing that Mariah should be accused of with regard to that, is carelessness and rudeness.
 
... I’m so angered by the threats sent to Mariah and by Mariah and Eunsoo’s unwillingness to comment. Be truthful and mature about it, don’t try to throw it under the rug. Why in the world would a 22-year-Old try to INJURE a 16-year-old during a public practice in which cameras and people are EVERYWHERE? Also, the translation said that Eunsoo HAD to get taped afterwards, but in the picture she already has tapes.

Furthermore, both skaters have talked about how they push each other at the rink because they look up to each other. Mariah’s said during every single press release that she thinks highly of the Korean skaters. As for Eunsoo, she commented on how it was so different training in America because the training atmosphere is better and there’s LESS PRESSURE.

Either both are denying to comment because it’s total crap, or they’re withholding anything until after the competition. Plus, Korean and American culture are totally different and what may seem as a sharp, but simple comment to Americans may be interpreted as bullying.

If the allegations are true, then Mariah needs to be disqualified. If the rumors are bogus, then I expect social media to own up to the death threats and their dragging of Mariah’s name through the mud... but they won’t. Social media is the trash of society.
 
Firedancer said:
I am extremely skeptical at this point. The pictures provided don’t actually show anything. I did notice the ankle Eunsoo is holding is the skate wrapped in silver tape so maybe there is a previous issue with her skate/ankle that was bothering her. It also doesn’t make sense that Mariah would do this in a public practice at worlds, where others could see it and/or she could be hurt herself.

I admittedly don’t know Mariah but this does not appear to match her personality and does not seem like something Raf would allow to occur. I appreciate Adam speaking out, as he has trained there. I hope someone can check with rink management/Raf to verify the situation quickly so it can be resolved.
Click to expand...
In all fairness Adam has not been around much...celebrating his celebrity and traveling all over the place often. Maybe he now drops into the rink here and there and maybe if is staying near the rink now works out there ...but I saw a sentence either on instagram or twitter that he had choreographed a program for Mariah. In the twitter feed the translater did check out some of the sources and apparently there is some damage to the leg. Certainly it needs to be investigated as that kind of behavior can not be overlooked if that is what happened. And if was just an accident why was there no apology or stopping and inquiring if she was ok. If she was 16 she could have frozen after she did it but she is 23 and has been competing for many years. If it is not true then it needs to be shut down quickly and a statement made and there should be repercussions.
 
Neither skater should say a word until after the competition, not verbally nor on social media. They both need to focus on the job at hand--their free skates. Unfortunately, one of them is getting death threats and the other is not. I'm sure their coaching team and national team leader is trying their best to advise and insulate each of them. Any talking that needs to happen before end of competition should be through their coaches or respective federations.
 
jiejie said:
Neither skater should say a word until after the competition, not verbally nor on social media. They both need to focus on the job at hand--their free skates. Unfortunately, one of them is getting death threats and the other is not. I'm sure their coaching team and national team leader is trying their best to advise and insulate each of them. Any talking that needs to happen before end of competition should be through their coaches or respective federations.
Click to expand...

THIS 100%
 
jiejie said:
Neither skater should say a word until after the competition, not verbally nor on social media. They both need to focus on the job at hand--their free skates. Unfortunately, one of them is getting death threats and the other is not. I'm sure their coaching team and national team leader is trying their best to advise and insulate each of them. Any talking that needs to happen before end of competition should be through their coaches or respective federations.
Click to expand...

This. Plus, insulting her family on social media and calling them names is really ironic for fans who claim said skater is bullying someone.
 
Lim needs to run away from her representation. Whether true or not, in no way does this help her except to setup an excuse for a potential poor performance.

Here's what I see:
  1. They've created a public controversy in a coaching camp. (And if I were Raf I'd be PISSED that one of my clients is trying to take control of messaging from me. I get that Raf may be trying to become the major coach of Korean Ladies, but I would fire Lim, regardless of whether or not this claim is true. I'm sorry, but you don't get to threaten my reputation and business in a public forum.)
  2. Lim now appears weak. Instead of being setup to surprise and succeed, she's being setup in a narrative of failure and excuses.
  3. They've now guaranteed a toxic training environment (and if one didn't exist before, it surely will now.) I can see a "walking on egg shells" type of mentality now if both Bell and Lim stay. Again, if I were Raf, I'd fire one of them (and that one would be the one that is trying to create a public controversy.)
Sigh, this whole thing is just stupid, and I don't see how it helps anyone.
 
mag said:
With all due respect to Adam, his saying that he trains at the rink sometimes and hasn’t seen any bullying therefore it isn’t happening is the same as when people come forward and say that some man accused of sexual harassment didn’t harass them or they have never seen it and that is supposed to be in some way relevant. It isn’t and quite frankly, neither are Adam’s observations, and neither are people’s take on Mariah’s personality.

I have no idea what is going on, if anything, but suggesting that someone is lying when they accuse someone of bullying is wrong. As to the collision, no one but Mariah know whether or not it was intentional. Hopefully there is a video that will help if there is an investigation. At this point the only thing that Mariah should be accused of with regard to that, is carelessness and rudeness.
Click to expand...

Why is it wrong? People do lie. And, it could be her perception.

IMO - Raf would not allow that to happen in his rink. And, the thought of Bell bullying anyone just makes me laugh.

"Bullying" is kind of in the eye of the beholder. I can see things that could be considered bullying that simply aren't......skating by someone too close. Stopping in front of their path. Warmups, and I assume lessons all look like a warm up ring at a horse show. Lots of horses and riders trying to get from place A to place B.....sometimes, you just don't see someone, or know their trajectory and you cause someone to have to pull up, or move fast. Just happens. Generally, it is not personal, or intimidation. You would be called out by the steward.
 
Last edited:
I really hope this controversy is dealt with justly right away. Neither skaters deserve this and it’s so sad because both are rising stars in their own respective federations... but now both skaters’ images have been tarnished, regardless of the outcome.

If the allegations do a full 180 and bite the agency’s back... all hell will break loose and Lim will need to fire all her representatives. I don’t understand why they would file a report at Worlds when they could have waited TWO days later.
 
mag said:
With all due respect to Adam, his saying that he trains at the rink sometimes and hasn’t seen any bullying therefore it isn’t happening is the same as when people come forward and say that some man accused of sexual harassment didn’t harass them or they have never seen it and that is supposed to be in some way relevant. It isn’t and quite frankly, neither are Adam’s observations, and neither are people’s take on Mariah’s personality.

I have no idea what is going on, if anything, but suggesting that someone is lying when they accuse someone of bullying is wrong. As to the collision, no one but Mariah know whether or not it was intentional. Hopefully there is a video that will help if there is an investigation. At this point the only thing that Mariah should be accused of with regard to that, is carelessness and rudeness.
Click to expand...

Adam saying he hasn't seen any bullying may not be relevant, but him saying the the claim that they use separate dressing rooms/have been separated is false - that is at least somewhat relevant.
 
At this point I am thinking that this (imbroglio) is all a big misunderstanding (arising from cultural differences) that's been blown out of proportion.
 
oleada said:
Isn't All That Skate run by Yuna and her mother?
(not that Yuna said or did anything when her fans were threatening Sotnikova on social media :shuffle:)
Click to expand...
I do get why people are sensitive about believing Korean media (and no this is not meant to be derogatory, a lot of isn’t don’t believe US media either). Just look up Burning Sun Scandal and the other scandals in South Korea right now, it’s an eye-opener.
 
It depends to me. Her toe pick may have touched the ice which would have made it more than 1/4 under, or it may not have and they counted it when her whole blade touched the ice which would have been within 1/4. I watched your time mark and put the slo-mo on slo-mo (thanks to YouTube) and watched it multiple times. Some times it's hard to see whether the toe pick touched the ice or if it's still just above the ice.
 
I think @thvudragon may be on to something. Could there be another possibility? That this sideshow has been manufactured by the management company as a way to break a multi-year contract with Arutunian without penalty costs, and that the intent all along has been to move Eunsoo's training elsewhere after this season? It sounds farfetched if you look at it from a skating basis and downright inhumane if you're in Mariah's shoes, but look at it from a business basis and maybe more believable, I've seen similar out of the playbook of business dealings completely unrelated to skating.
 
oleada said:
Isn't All That Skate run by Yuna and her mother?
(not that Yuna said or did anything when her fans were threatening Sotnikova on social media :shuffle:)
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding ding.

I find it funny that people are saying Adam is biased and thus shouldn't say anything, but All That Skate literally stands to gain financially from people paying more attention to Eunsoo. Can't get much more biased than that.

I also believe ATS knew exactly what they were doing by choosing to whip into a frenzy one of the most psychotic fanbases in figure skating...so who's bullying who?

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible for Mariah to have bullied Eunsoo...what do I know, I don't train in that rink, after all. But...the way ATS has gone about this is immediately enough to have me a little suspicious of their motive.
 
RoseRed said:
Adam saying he hasn't seen any bullying may not be relevant, but him saying the the claim that they use separate dressing rooms/have been separated is false - that is at least somewhat relevant.
Click to expand...
Maybe, no sure how often Adam is cruising around the ladies dressing rooms in between public appearances...

For those saying the photos show nothing, yes, they don't show contact the moment of contact but they show Mariah lifting her leg as part of choreography and then Lim holding her the back of her leg. Do I think Mariah did it intentionally? No, but if contact like that is made you would expect some acknowledgement and an apology. Which for all could have already happened off ice or during the practice. Hopefully this is settled soon and the harassment stops online. If Lim is getting bullied or feels like she is being bullied I hope she gets to a better training situation in the off season. I remember there were similar posts by the same user on Mirai Nagasu videos on youtube that she bullied and intimidated younger skaters but nothing ever appeared to come of those.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)

Similar threads

Vagabond
  • Locked
U.S. Ladies [#29]: Skating with Adjusted Vision
32 33 34
Replies
1K
Views
154K
Vagabond
Vagabond
Aerobicidal
2021 US Nationals Ladies SP: All Mariah Wants for 2021 is Liu
27 28 29
Replies
846
Views
26K
bardtoob
bardtoob
Sylvia
  • Locked
2020-21 U.S. Team Envelopes & International Selection Pool (ISP)
Replies
7
Views
6K
bethy135
B
Vagabond
  • Locked
U.S. Ladies [#28]: Achieving 2020 Vision
33 34 35
Replies
1K
Views
179K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Vagabond
  • Locked
U.S. Ladies [#26]: Bell, Boots, and Camel
32 33 34
Replies
1K
Views
197K
vesperholly
V
Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information