The ISU's New Set Of Judging Rules For Jumps

[rfisher]

Do we get to shout FEQ you at the officials?

 

[antmanb]

Do we get to shout FEQ you at the officials?

I hope so!

 

[starrynight]

Excellent interview with Daniel Grassl where he discusses in detail the rule changes:

Daniel Grassl: Changes in rules will not affect my content

Daniel Grassl told softening the quarantine in Italy, analyzed serious changes in the rules of figure skating.

fs-gossips.com

He actually seems pretty happy with them.

 

[skylark]

Excellent interview with Daniel Grassl where he discusses in detail the rule changes:

Daniel Grassl: Changes in rules will not affect my content

Daniel Grassl told softening the quarantine in Italy, analyzed serious changes in the rules of figure skating.

fs-gossips.com

That's a wonderful interview. What strikes me is his attitude toward these or any rule changes: it's up to him as a skater to make the most of his ability whatever the rules decide. I think this is the attitude of most of the skaters. If they love skating and want to compete, it's up to them to do the work; it isn't in their control what the rules are or how the judges decide. In his case, the changes may benefit him, but he also addresses others, such as Anna S. He turns the question to how she'll likely make an adjustment.

Someone had said this targets Eteri's group. I don't agree. Anna was jumping two quad lutzes and two triple lutzes in her FS. This skewed scores in her favor, which could be argued is in principle violating the Zayek rule. So she'll change her emphasis and make up the points somewhere else. On the other hand, couldn't one say that the changes favor Alena Kostornaia? Her favorite jump is 3flip-3toe, she said.

I've read this whole freaking thread. It's such a contrast with what the athletes say over and over and over again. They're going to skate according to what they value in skating, and it's their task to adjust and make the greatest use of it.

There's no question in my mind that the nit-picky rulings on technique have greatly narrowed the numbers of viewers. And it's demonstrated all the time that there are many disagreements about URs and all the rest, so the rules don't make judging objective. I'm not a fan of Tonya Harding, but even I, as a non-skating viewer, could see that her jumping technique was outstanding. So all this Much Ado About Nothing only makes a small population of audiences happy. And as much as some whine about proper technique, what it comes to is rewarding the skaters who were taught great technique early on. That penalizes skaters who weren't.

What should figure skating make one feel? At its best, it allows viewers to feel what the skater is feeling and portraying, in harmony with the music. It's a divine sport because the best figure skaters are a living conduit -- they transfer their emotions and musical sensitivity to the audiences (live and video), and because it gives the audience an experience that is so much happier than all this wrangling about what is proper technique.

 

[jlai]

There's no question in my mind that the nit-picky rulings on technique have greatly narrowed the numbers of viewers.

How did you figure that out? YuNa has popularized skating for Korea, and Hanyu to keep the popularity in Japan, despite whatever strange rulings on technique fans think there are. In the US, not having another Kwan-like female hurts. But even if the sport goes back to 6.0, the US viewers aren't just gonna suddenly go up.

 

[tony]

How did you figure that out? YuNa has popularized skating for Korea, and Hanyu to keep the popularity in Japan, despite whatever strange rulings on technique fans think there are. In the US, not having another Kwan-like female hurts. But even if the sport goes back to 6.0, the US viewers aren't just gonna suddenly go up.

Agreed. International viewership is certainly up and many countries now have the opportunity to watch that never had said opportunities pre-streaming services. Viewership in the US has been on the decline since around 1999. Has nothing to do with IJS.

 

[starrynight]

I think IJS had some bad spots and good spots.

Goodness me that phase in pairs when Duhamel/Radford used to win with those quad throw jumps telegraphed from one end of the rink to the other and then landed in a squat wasn't great. The decision to then start emphasising rewarding quality in pairs was a very good move and it's really produced some beautiful stuff.

On the flip side, the technical arms race in ladies encouraged by ladies has actually made it quite interesting. But much of that has to do with the packed field, conveyer belt of ladies and Russian drama. From a Russian perspective it's great for them because every country loves a sport where they win.

The quality of ice dance has skyrocketed under IJS. Gee some sloppy stuff used to get into the top 10 say about 12 to 15 years ago. Although we might have been spoiled in recent years with a top 8 where all the teams could have even been world champ.

 

[skylark]

How did you figure that out? YuNa has popularized skating for Korea, and Hanyu to keep the popularity in Japan, despite whatever strange rulings on technique fans think there are. In the US, not having another Kwan-like female hurts. But even if the sport goes back to 6.0, the US viewers aren't just gonna suddenly go up.

It's more of a belief than a calculation. I believe that many viewers all over the world care much more about the performance and what the skater gives to the audience than they care about whether a jump is underrotated. (For instance, Javi Fernandez said at Worlds 2016 that what he cared most about was that the audience enjoyed his skates. Oksana Baiul said at 1993 Worlds that she cared most about entertaining the audience.) It's not just about the US. Although I'm glad for the "Q" addition; it will allow full value of the jump if it's only a little UR.

I think these micro-manipulations of the rules are ISU's attempt to define more of what they want to see. As @starrynights said, it promoted the beauty and the soul of figure skating when ISu started emphasizing quality in pairs.

As a comparison, I'll paraphrase a remark Jonathan Beyer made this week. On the big competition circuit for singing, there were people who relied on judgments like "you didn't double your T in the Italian words" or "you missed that eighth rest." Rather than cultivating the ability to sense if something was beautiful, or sense if the timbre was gorgeous, or if a piece was gorgeously interpreted.

 

[tkaug]

I really think cheated take-offs should be called by TS, with a sign like "c".
I don't see the new reduction ruke "cheated take-off" will be applied properly because:

There have been below reductions which allow judges to go down with GOE inividually for uncalled underrotated/edgew violated jumps,

Less than quarter missing (no sign)
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign)

I don't really see judges are looking. Medvedeva is widely known as a flutzer and I don't believe she has ever landed a Lutz in competitions with a proper outside edge. When it's called they give a negative GOE and when it's not they give a positive GOE even if she clearly flutzes. This means they don't care about uncalled errors.

If cheated take-off is not something for TS to call, it's all up to the judges how they score it. I don't think it is judges' job to check take-offs. If they are only allowed to look with a normal speed as it has been, it's almost not possible for them to find it.

 

[DobrinFan]

This communication has been suspended.

ISU Communication 2323 (Single & Pair Skating Scale of Values season 2020/21) and ISU Communication 2324 (Single & Pair Skating Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for making Grade of Execution and Program Components Season 2020/21)

Considering the worldwide COVID-19 developments and the slow re-opening of ice rinks and training activities and also based on feedback received from ISU Members, the Council decided to suspend with immediate effect the above-mentioned ISU Communications 2323 and 2324. The corresponding previous ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 remain basically in force.

The Council, in cooperation with the Single & Pair Skating Technical Committee, is currently evaluating whether and to what extent some clarifications and minor adjustments to ISU Communications 2253 and 2254 would be necessary, and if so, will issue a new ISU Communication shortly.

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/documents-communications/isu-communications/24380-isu-communication-2332/file

 

[tony]

Many Member Federations were VERY against some of these new meticulous rules. I don’t expect them to come back with a modified version of the q or any of that- they will likely just forget the ideas even happened.

I don’t see them trying to modify the jump values to be equal ever again, either.

 

[SkatingIsLife]

Many Member Federations were VERY against some of these new meticulous rules. I don’t expect them to come back with a modified version of the q or any of that- they will likely just forget the ideas even happened.

I don’t see them trying to modify the jump values to be equal ever again, either.

Lets hope so and let's hope they got the message. I just wonder why they have a Coaches and a Skaters Representative in their Technical Committee. If those presons would do their job right, they should discuss any of the TC's (I hestitate to say "stupid") ideas with the once who teach and practice every single day before putting such ideas in place to be a rule.

 

[kwanfan1818]

According to an IFS tweet,

The new Scale of Values, GOE and PC marking guidelines that were announced in May have been suspended and will not be used this coming season.​

​

https://twitter.com/ifsmagazine/status/1273651182758756352

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ Refer to @DobrinFan's excerpt in post #160 above.

ETA:

I just wonder why they have a Coaches and a Skaters Representative in their Technical Committee. If those presons would do their job right, they should discuss any of the TC's (I hestitate to say "stupid") ideas with the once who teach and practice every single day before putting such ideas in place to be a rule.

To be fair, we aren't privy to what they (Patrick Meier and Fedor Klimov are the ones currently on the Singles/Pairs TC: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/about/meet-the-team/isu-office-holders/single-and-pair-skating ) may have discussed with coaches/skaters and how much of a voice they have within the Technical Committee.

 

[CantALoop]

Does anyone have the original proposed SoV chart? The old link points to a new PDF with everything wiped out and it now says SUSPENDED:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-...1-2323-sp-sov-changes-for-season-2020-21/file

 

[Sylvia]

Does anyone have the original proposed SoV chart?

Found screen shots of the original ISU document in this blog: https://ameblo.jp/39figure/entry-12596488923.html

 

[seabm7]

Does anyone have the original proposed SoV chart? The old link points to a new PDF with everything wiped out and it now says SUSPENDED:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-...1-2323-sp-sov-changes-for-season-2020-21/file

Someone archived the document at the Wayback Machine. Here is the link:

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

 

[clairecloutier]

I suppose I shouldn’t admit this but, when the new scoring guidelines came out, I never did get around to reading and analyzing them, because I was too distracted and worried about CV-19, and also, TBH, I was too annoyed by the bits I kept hearing about it on Twitter.

Guess my intuition led me in the right direction ....

 

[Lemonade20]

I agree the system has to change, but somehow returning to the 6.0 system doesn’t work. What about a 10.0 system? More room to drill down to how well a program is executed. There’s no need to get super technical about the jumps.

 

[Miki89]

I sometimes think they should do away with the technical panel and leave all of the scoring to the judges, as they used to do. Way too much power is given to essentially two specialists, and one being an assistant, so maybe just one person. Depending on the caller, the scoring can vary greatly. If they want to be that strict with jumps, they should review everyone's jumps. I think that can only happen with a computer system. Throw in bias and favoritism and the tech panel becomes as political as figures scoring back in the day.

 

[tkaug]

Not mendatory to give a negative GOE for q'ed jumps? I've seen some judges give a BIG positive GOE to some of those jumps, not even a 0, which is RIDICULOUS!!

 

[Japanfan]

What strikes me is his attitude toward these or any rule changes: it's up to him as a skater to make the most of his ability whatever the rules decide. I think this is the attitude of most of the skaters. If they love skating and want to compete, it's up to them to do the work; it isn't in their control what the rules are or how the judges decide.

Yes.

There's no question in my mind that the nit-picky rulings on technique have greatly narrowed the numbers of viewers.

I would say that lack of TV broadcasting for skating events is equally important. At least in Canada - I had to watch the Eurosport broadcast of GPF because it was not available in Canada - or maybe CBC gave some very abbreviated coverage. OTOH, streaming may bring in a whole lot of new fans.

Another thing that makes a difference is star power: one Michelle Kwan may draw in a lot of new viewers and turn them into a fan of the sport.

And your typical non-uber fan watches skating once every four years, at the Olympics. I don't think they really care that much about the judging system. Those who are more analytical and detail-oriented will like IJS most. But everyone can understand the basics of the judging system.

And it's demonstrated all the time that there are many disagreements about URs and all the rest, so the rules don't make judging objective.

As if the judging was ever objective. IMO it is more so under IJS, at least to a certain extent. In 2001 there was no movement in all three phases of the ice dance competition at worlds. I don't think that has happened since?

At least now there are specific criteria beyond 'technical' and 'artistic'. In my view IJS is far from perfect, but I do think it has been an improvement. JMHO.

What should figure skating make one feel? At its best, it allows viewers to feel what the skater is feeling and portraying, in harmony with the music. It's a divine sport because the best figure skaters are a living conduit -- they transfer their emotions and musical sensitivity to the audiences (live and video), and because it gives the audience an experience that is so much happier than all this wrangling about what is proper technique.

And skaters can still be such a living conduit - a system can't just kill creativity, or can't do in this case. Creativity usually finds its way to combat restraints on it.

I remember one year under 6.0 when there was a mandatory spiral sequence for the ladies, and pretty much every lady came out with the same three spirals (more or less).

And many skaters telegraphed their jumps under 6.0. And many were focused on technique then as well.

We've seen wonderful, moving performances under IJS, just as we did under 6.0.

It's more of a belief than a calculation. I believe that many viewers all over the world care much more about the performance and what the skater gives to the audience than they care about whether a jump is underrotated. (For instance, Javi Fernandez said at Worlds 2016 that what he cared most about was that the audience enjoyed his skates. Oksana Baiul said at 1993 Worlds that she cared most about entertaining the audience.) It's not just about the US. Although I'm glad for the "Q" addition; it will allow full value of the jump if it's only a little UR.

I think these micro-manipulations of the rules are ISU's attempt to define more of what they want to see. As @starrynights said, it promoted the beauty and the soul of figure skating when ISu started emphasizing quality in pairs.

That's a wonderful interview. What strikes me is his attitude toward these or any rule changes: it's up to him as a skater to make the most of his ability whatever the rules decide. I think this is the attitude of most of the skaters. If they love skating and want to compete, it's up to them to do the work; it isn't in their control what the rules are or how the judges decide. In his case, the changes may benefit him, but he also addresses others, such as Anna S. He turns the question to how she'll likely make an adjustment.

Someone had said this targets Eteri's group. I don't agree. Anna was jumping two quad lutzes and two triple lutzes in her FS. This skewed scores in her favor, which could be argued is in principle violating the Zayek rule. So she'll change her emphasis and make up the points somewhere else. On the other hand, couldn't one say that the changes favor Alena Kostornaia? Her favorite jump is 3flip-3toe, she said.

I've read this whole freaking thread. It's such a contrast with what the athletes say over and over and over again. They're going to skate according to what they value in skating, and it's their task to adjust and make the greatest use of it.

There's no question in my mind that the nit-picky rulings on technique have greatly narrowed the numbers of viewers. And it's demonstrated all the time that there are many disagreements about URs and all the rest, so the rules don't make judging objective. I'm not a fan of Tonya Harding, but even I, as a non-skating viewer, could see that her jumping technique was outstanding. So all this Much Ado About Nothing only makes a small population of audiences happy. And as much as some whine about proper technique, what it comes to is rewarding the skaters who were taught great technique early on. That penalizes skaters who weren't.

What should figure skating make one feel? At its best, it allows viewers to feel what the skater is feeling and portraying, in harmony with the music. It's a divine sport because the best figure skaters are a living conduit -- they transfer their emotions and musical sensitivity to the audiences (live and video), and because it gives the audience an experience that is so much happier than all this wrangling about what is proper technique.

As a comparison, I'll paraphrase a remark Jonathan Beyer made this week. On the big competition circuit for singing, there were people who relied on judgments like "you didn't double your T in the Italian words" or "you missed that eighth rest." Rather than cultivating the ability to sense if something was beautiful, or sense if the timbre was gorgeous, or if a piece was gorgeously interpreted.

 

[skylark]

And skaters can still be such a living conduit - a system can't just kill creativity, or can't do in this case. Creativity usually finds its way to combat restraints on it. ....


We've seen wonderful, moving performances under IJS, just as we did under 6.0.

Derek Hough said a wonderful thing, that he likes restrictions because sometimes a restriction can force a little creativity where it wouldn't have happened before.

Under IJS, the wonderful, moving performances are perhaps a little more a factor of whether the skater or team is committed to connecting with audiences, with their movement and spirit and facial expressions being the way they transfer emotion to audiences, both live and thru streaming/tv/video.

And I think, re-reading my words from a few months ago (thanks! ) ... that the word "sense" is important. We can sense connection, artistry, musical intelligence. We can even see or sense the difference between good technique and phenomenal technique, i.e. Nathan Chen's technique is exquisite; that's not the only thing I love about Nathan by any means, it's also how he dances and expresses his music. But his technique helps take his skating to another level, and I don't have to be nit-picking edges, or counting rotations, or know how to execute a jump, to know and appreciate that.