The ISU's New Set Of Judging Rules For Jumps

[Deleted member 221]

The f/lootz is nothing new.... Several people, including me (and also Sandra Loosemore of SkateWeb) pointed out in 1996-97 that Michelle Kwan had a "(f)lootz," especially when she used the long entry lutz. She was the first skater I noticed using the blade of the picking foot to assist her on the lutz.

The short entry lutz looked better to me, but her flip looked quite pre-rotated in a "flootzy" kind of way in 2002 (in addition to the obvious underrotation problems she was having with it during that year).

 

[Miki89]

Some of skating has become so busy these days that I relish when a skater can "hold the moment", when done with ease and balance, it's beautiful.

Exactly. Tbh, I think it's equally unfair when a skater with solid jump technique but awkward, lazy spin positions and fugly spirals get +4 (or +2 a few years ago) just because they fulfill the ISU requirements and are fast. The removal of the spiral sequence really showed what the ISU valued in skating. I also dislike the argument that a skater is naturally good at spirals because she/he has better flexibility. Michelle Kwan did not have the natural flexibility of Sasha Cohen but she put in the effort and made her spirals iconic. There is almost zero incentive for skaters nowadays to put any effort in refining their movements and non-jump skills.

 

[MacMadame]

(and also Sandra Loosemore of SkateWeb)

What ever happened to Sandra? Skateweb hasn't been updated in 10 years.

 

[tony]

The f/lootz is nothing new.... Several people, including me (and also Sandra Loosemore of SkateWeb) pointed out in 1996-97 that Michelle Kwan had a "(f)lootz," especially when she used the long entry lutz. She was the first skater I noticed using the blade of the picking foot to assist her on the lutz.

The short entry lutz looked better to me, but her flip looked quite pre-rotated in a "flootzy" kind of way in 2002 (in addition to the obvious underrotation problems she was having with it during that year).

Well, now you’ve done it. But yes I remember the discussions.

I don't agree with you. Again, what i see is that he just rotates more on the toe pick (using the lower part of the blade) which drops more than Pavlyuchenko's... she takes off quite a bit faster after planting it into the ice. So even in slow mo, it is not like his blade is on the ice... it looks like he plants the blade on the ice because he is rotating more before take off. it's not a flip because he rotates more on the toe pick and has 180 degree prerotation? Is there a rule about that?

That’s fine that you don’t agree. But the point, plain and simple, is that the mechanics of the flip and Lutz are to lift off of that toe pick and generate rotation, not twist the body around 90 degrees before planting the toe pick and then turn on your jumping foot, dropping down from the high toe pick plant, to change the weight and push essentially from the base of the foot. The teeth of the toe pick are not dug into the ice anymore even if the entire blade isn’t flat on the ice. When a skater does a loop, they push off the front of the blade. When he takes off, compare it to any loop. It’s the same take-off.

 

[bladesofgorey]

The toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice on a loop.
What I don't get about this obsession with a flat blade helping is that it doesn't- in order to get proper height and vault for all jumps the skater springs off the toe pick last, even in edge jumps.

As far as pre-rotation goes, I skated back in the late 70s/80s so was taught toe jumps the old school way- only 1/4 rotation on the pick, which means the front arm needs to release from its check position in order to assist with rotation and the free leg comes off the ice relatively straight rather than already crossed in an "h" position- it seems pretty impossible to both leave the ice at the quarter and take off with the free leg in an h on the other side of the body and the forward arm anchored in front also across. If anyone can find me a video of a skater who can do a triple taking off in the "h" across leg position most of the skaters (especially women) favor now for triples and quads without turning to forward during the take off I'd be really interested to see it.

 

[tony]

The toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice on a loop.
What I don't get about this obsession with a flat blade helping is that it doesn't- in order to get proper height and vault for all jumps the skater springs off the toe pick last, even in edge jumps.

Yes, you're rising off the front of the blade on the edge jumps too. But you're not going up and down on the blade prior to the take-off of those, so why should there be such a poor technique allowed from the flip and Lutz?

These skaters are readjusting the weight to be able to push off of the blade to get their momentum, like they do in a loop or Salchow before rising up onto the toe. The set-up alone and the way they are bending their bodies/picking way off to the side rather than straight back is a huge giveaway that they aren't lifting from the (initial) toe plant.

 

[tony]

As far as pre-rotation goes, I skated back in the late 70s/80s so was taught toe jumps the old school way- only 1/4 rotation on the pick, which means the front arm needs to release from its check position in order to assist with rotation and the free leg comes off the ice relatively straight rather than already crossed in an "h" position- it seems pretty impossible to both leave the ice at the quarter and take off with the free leg in an h on the other side of the body and the forward arm anchored in front also across. If anyone can find me a video of a skater who can do a triple taking off in the "h" across leg position most of the skaters (especially women) favor now for triples and quads without turning to forward during the take off I'd be really interested to see it.

I'm pretty sure this may be what you are looking for:

Quadruple Lutz Boyang Jin

www.youtube.com

 

[kwanfan1818]

After watching those videos, I feel the need to send some random Boyang Jin love out there.

 

[Erin]

What ever happened to Sandra? Skateweb hasn't been updated in 10 years.

She posted on here for several years, but her last post was about two years ago and last login about a year ago.

 

[tony]

Maria Butyrskaya (RUS) - 1997/1998 Champions Series Final, Figure Skating, Ladies' Free Skate

Munich, GERMANY - 1997/1998 Champions Series Final, Figure Skating, Ladies' Free Skate - Maria Butyrskaya of Russia placed 3rd in the Free Skate and ended dr...

www.youtube.com

I have used this example many times over the years, but those first two jumps.. does it get any better? The great technique, the ice coverage, the 0 doubt of it being rotated, the landing extension and speed out of the jump, the arms. All of it. I know IJS asks for more in terms of busyness (even though the toe basically does have footwork down the length of the ice), but I would take this any day.

ETA- that may be the #1 triple toe I've ever seen.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

What ever happened to Sandra? Skateweb hasn't been updated in 10 years.

She posted on here for several years, but her last post was about two years ago and last login about a year ago.

Perhaps she decided to live with the frogs full-time. I guess she might not be comfortable in FGRSK8's toad refuge.

 

[VGThuy]

Boyang Jin really does have the best quad Lutz bar none. The system doesn’t reward him adequately even though theoretically, it’s built to do so. I think the full blade stuff is a way to actually teach the judges to score accordingly. I still think the lutz/flip being the same BV is utter BS. Deduct harshly for bad jumps if you want but don’t correct the trend by just throwing in the towel and not adequately rewarding a lutz. I guess the truth is most skaters aren’t giving that counter rotation anyway even if they are taking off from the outside edge. The point of the Lutz is to counter rotate as that’s where the true difficulty lies. All these short entrances fail to really have the skaters do that.

 

[miffy]

Nic Nadeau did this as his combo LAST season.

Exactly, and there was a lot of laughter and disbelief here, but this time we’d probably take it. I’d be happy to see any jump this year

 

[bladesofgorey]

I'm pretty sure this may be what you are looking for:

Quadruple Lutz Boyang Jin

www.youtube.com

That's a gorgeous quad lutz using the "old school" technique I was taught- when I freeze the frame right after takeoff I can see his free leg is almost straight and not in an h, and his front arm has pulled back behind his body. So it's a great example of a huge jump using only a quarter turn on the pick but not the example I was looking for (free arm stays more in front on lift off and free leg bends up and across) Does that make sense? There are two distinct techniques being taught by coaches now, and the latter is the more popular (pull up into an h with the leg across, keep the front arm across the body) and I don;t believe it's possible to do this and not turn all the way forward on the pick. An observation from my own experience and relearning jumps after a few decades.

 

[muffinplus]

That’s fine that you don’t agree. But the point, plain and simple, is that the mechanics of the flip and Lutz are to lift off of that toe pick and generate rotation, not twist the body around 90 degrees before planting the toe pick and then turn on your jumping foot, dropping down from the high toe pick plant, to change the weight and push essentially from the base of the foot. The teeth of the toe pick are not dug into the ice anymore even if the entire blade isn’t flat on the ice. When a skater does a loop, they push off the front of the blade. When he takes off, compare it to any loop. It’s the same take-off.

I don't see any twisting before planting the toe pick... he plants the toe pick then rotates. There is no rule that says you need to immediately vault off the toe pick for it to be a lutz/flip... I mean, I'm just going to leave it because I don't agree with you. With the loop the blade/weight is actually on the ice before they push off... You are advocating essentially there is only one way to do a lutz with correct technique (i.e. immediately lifting off toe pick), and anything else is not correct.


It's funny, I always hated Butyrskaya's jumps ... not trying to hate, her jumps always looked extremely stiff (yes I know she had good technique if you want to talk about lack of pre-rotation)

 

[tony]

I don't see any twisting before planting the toe pick... he plants the toe pick then rotates. There is no rule that says you need to immediately vault off the toe pick for it to be a lutz/flip... I mean, I'm just going to leave it because I don't agree with you. With the loop the blade/weight is actually on the ice before they push off... You are advocating essentially there is only one way to do a lutz with correct technique (i.e. immediately lifting off toe pick), and anything else is not correct.

I agree that you will see what you want to see, but his upper body is already 90 degrees twisted when he does plant the toe, which is also way turned out. Look which direction it’s facing. That is not flip technique, period. How in the world is it excusable for his partner to lift right off the ice within a very minimal amount of pre-rotation but ignore that he’s doing something completely different? Again, a lot of what I’m advocating is it makes NO sense to < a skater who lands right around a quarter short on an otherwise sound jump, but give another skater who pre-rotates the hell out of a jump no call because they are landing at less of an underrotation. See Ashley Wagner’s 3T on the end of any 3F as another example of this.

It’s funny, I always hated Butyrskaya's jumps ... not trying to hate, her jumps always looked extremely stiff (yes I know she had good technique if you want to talk about lack of pre-rotation)

Did you watch said link? I never said anything about her stiffness that showed up, and I’m not acting as if it wasn’t there.

 

[tony]

P/K 3F

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imgur.com

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users.

imgur.com

 

[kwanfan1818]

K must be doing a loop: he looks like he has to pee badly.

 

[VGThuy]

Ugh, why does this always boil down to some crazy Yuna uber insisting her technique is the most perfect perfection that the world has ever had to behold? Her lutz at 4:30 is meh, sure she's on a BO edge but zero counter rotation of the upper body. Take a seat.

Can we start calling her “Kool-Aid” King?

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Disappointingly,I find this amongst the most banal and turgid discussions on this forum.

Is the name of this sport FIGURE SKATING or is it fractional jump rotation dissertation by amateur mathematicians?

It is long overdue to put the FIGURE and the SKATING back in our sport. Reinstate compulsory school figures in competition. Reinstate the 6.0 judging system. Ban all lyrics immediately.

Implementing these elementary steps will elevate figure skating from gymnastics' ugly little stepsister and deliver mainstream exposure again.

-BB

 

[Aerobicidal]

Nic Nadeau

deliver mainstream exposure

This says it all.

 

[VGThuy]

Disappointingly,I find this amongst the most banal and turgid discussions on this forum.

Is the name of this sport FIGURE SKATING or is it fractional jump rotation dissertation by amateur mathematicians?

It is long overdue to put the FIGURE and the SKATING back in our sport. Reinstate compulsory school figures in competition. Reinstate the 6.0 judging system. Ban all lyrics immediately.

Implementing these elementary steps will elevate figure skating from gymnastics' ugly little stepsister and deliver mainstream exposure again.

-BB

I will say this obsession over rotation, no matter how important, over anything else plus using IJS legal fictions to make fan-biased but superficially-sounding objective arguments over what’s important in figure skating has attracted a certain breed of skating fans to take over the social media fan sphere/conversation to the point of it being in a state of perpetual pedanticism (my spell check says that’s not a word but the dictionary says it is). Too bad those obsessive-compulsive fans don’t make up the numbers skating has lost in the past decade or so.

 

[muffinplus]

I agree that you will see what you want to see, but his upper body is already 90 degrees twisted when he does plant the toe, which is also way turned out. Look which direction it’s facing. That is not flip technique, period. How in the world is it excusable for his partner to lift right off the ice within a very minimal amount of pre-rotation but ignore that he’s doing something completely different? Again, a lot of what I’m advocating is it makes NO sense to < a skater who lands right around a quarter short on an otherwise sound jump, but give another skater who pre-rotates the hell out of a jump no call because they are landing at less of an underrotation. See Ashley Wagner’s 3T on the end of any 3F as another example of this.

You posted a screencap of Khodykin at the point where he has already rotated on the toe pick, he plants it way earlier. "This is not flip technique period" is your opinion... Until someone comes up with a definition of how many X degrees is not acceptable for pre-rotation for flip, it's not going to b "factually" unacceptable or not a flip. I agree that it should probably not get high GOE, but again, right now, it's not standardized. Right now, they just put the excessive rotation language, which is extremely vague. The full blade thing is still a load of crap, IMO.

Did you watch said link? I never said anything about her stiffness that showed up, and I’m not acting as if it wasn’t there.

I never said you did, I was just making a comment that I don't enjoy her jumps...that's all. Geez.

Anyways, done with this discussion as it's going in circles and probably boring to read

 

[vesperholly]

You posted a screencap of Khodykin at the point where he has already rotated on the toe pick, he plants it way earlier. "This is not flip technique period" is your opinion... Until someone comes up with a definition of how many X degrees is not acceptable for pre-rotation for flip, it's not going to b "factually" unacceptable or not a flip. I agree that it should probably not get high GOE, but again, right now, it's not standardized. Right now, they just put the excessive rotation language, which is extremely vague. The full blade thing is still a load of crap, IMO.

Pre-rotation is enough of a recognizable problem that it's now been written into the rules.

Khodykin's jump is horrible flip technique. That's not opinion, that's fact. He was probably either taught poor technique early on, or he isn't a very strong jumper and his coaches are trying to get him to consistently rotate anything. I wouldn't call it a loop though, that's an insult to loops. He's just doing a terrible flip.

It's easy enough to see pre-rotation if you can get a look at the pick mark on the ice. Good picks will be a dot/square, bad picks will be the dot with a tail at the end.

 

[muffinplus]

Pre-rotation is enough of a recognizable problem that it's now been written into the rules.



Khodykin's jump is horrible flip technique. That's not opinion, that's fact. He was probably either taught poor technique early on, or he isn't a very strong jumper and his coaches are trying to get him to consistently rotate anything. I wouldn't call it a loop though, that's an insult to loops. He's just doing a terrible flip.

It's easy enough to see pre-rotation if you can get a look at the pick mark on the ice. Good picks will be a dot/square, bad picks will be the dot with a tail at the end.

Pre-rotation on a flip (or another jump) isn't defined to be horrible at X degrees. That's all I'm going to say. Obviously something like 270 is bad, but anything less is arguable as to how much of it is bad...or at least it's not agreed upon universally.

 

[shine]

Pre-rotation on a flip (or another jump) isn't defined to be horrible at X degrees. That's all I'm going to say. Obviously something like 270 is bad, but anything less is arguable as to how much of it is bad...or at least it's not agreed upon universally.

I admit I’m a little lost. What exactly are you trying to argue? That bad technique is not bad technique because it’s not clearly and explicitly defined in the rule book with numbers and degrees etc? From these slow-mo videos it’s really not that hard to see for example, that Uno’s 4flip is heavily pre-rotated and he turns so much on the ice which causes and gives him room to rotate and drop his blade from the pick to the flat before takeoff. That said, whether the dropping of the blade to its flat or the so called “blade assist” is actually an assist I still find questionable. But it’s not good technique nonetheless. Also, the actual degrees of pre-rotation may be hard to spot in real-time, but for toe jumps pre-rotated jumps usually have a different ”look” than not pre-rotated jumps in real-time.

 

[DreamSkates]

What do they have to feel? Does annoyance, boredom, sheer trainwreckness, fascination, count? I've felt that about a lot of performances that won medals. And loved many that didn't.

That was my point...certainly not boredom or annoyance unless that fits the music/story of the program.

 

[aftershocks]

Some of these new rules are meticulous to the point of being ridiculous. There's an unclear edge sign deduction and unclear edge no sign deduction. If the edge is unclear, it should be deemed !. The less than 1/4 UR range is both super picky and vague. Does that mean any jumps that is not perfectly 100% rotated or only jumps between 1/8 and 1/4 turn? Tbh, even some of the best jumpers often land difficult jumps between 1/8 and 1/4 range in competition. I don't see the judges strictly applying this new rule because otherwise there should be very few jumps in the +4-5 range. I think these rules are just going to make the scoring more subjective and confusing. Don't see how this is going to help the popularity of the sport.

Exactly. Some of these new rules are just too microscopically picky, overdone, and without even having the proper resources to accurately call such precise requirements and restrictions. I guess they are interested in judges having even more manipulative (albeit confusing) leeway. I wish they'd be microscopically picky about other important concerns within the sport. Of course, at this point, their preoccupation is with figuring out when/if competitions will be taking place again. Regardless of when that might happen, nothing will be the same.

 

[aftershocks]

Maria Butyrskaya (RUS) - 1997/1998 Champions Series Final, Figure Skating, Ladies' Free Skate

Munich, GERMANY - 1997/1998 Champions Series Final, Figure Skating, Ladies' Free Skate - Maria Butyrskaya of Russia placed 3rd in the Free Skate and ended dr...

www.youtube.com

I have used this example many times over the years, but those first two jumps.. does it get any better? The great technique, the ice coverage, the 0 doubt of it being rotated, the landing extension and speed out of the jump, the arms. All of it. I know IJS asks for more in terms of busyness (even though the toe basically does have footwork down the length of the ice), but I would take this any day.

ETA- that may be the #1 triple toe I've ever seen.

Maria had a lot of great, endearing qualities along with the good jump technique. She had to work hard at it because she got no love from her federation, and she wasn't the most gifted athletically. She willed herself to learn and to improve. Her biggest weakness was her overly stiff knees which marred the aesthetics of some of her landings. Still, she was an enjoyable skater to watch because she loved skating so much. If she'd had the soft knees of some of the Japanese skaters, ooh la la!

After watching those videos, I feel the need to send some random Boyang Jin love out there.

That's not even Boyang's best landing of the quad lutz. He was slightly late getting his free leg around, so that it almost seemed like a near two-foot, but it was clean and one-footed. The entry technique is great.

Some of his best quad lutz landings are with the the triple-toe combo!

 

[antmanb]

Wow this thread has got to the stage where still pictures are being posted like its Moa vs Yuna on youtube

I haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned the most important thing yet? If you land a Flip with an edge change right on the quarter that's a FEQ