The ISU's New Set Of Judging Rules For Jumps

[muffinplus]

The thing that makes me laugh about Koola King types is that I seriously doubt she's a good enough skater (or a skater) to make these flat out declarations about what elite skaters do with their jumps.

Most of these venomous comments presented as "facts" with terms like "textbook technique" sprinkled in(excuse me while I get my barf bag ) at least on social media come from people who aren't skaters. Mind you I am not saying people who have skated don't have this criticism, but most of the ones who scream about it have not skated. Seriously, reading Twitter on this topic makes me ill.

 

[tony]

Look here for an example:

Shoma Uno 宇野 昌磨 Skate Canada FS slow motion with GOE from the judges.

www.youtube.com

Shoma's 4 'Flip' which I've never ever considered to be a flip. This is a toe-pick assisted jump, where in theory he really should be picking in and lifting straight up from that toe pick once it hits the ice. It CAN be done on both this and the Lutz and I can provide examples showing such. But you see immediately in this slow motion that as soon as the pick goes in, he's turning his body and leaning a HUGE amount before he even thinks about getting off the ice. Because of that, the toe pick turns on the ice, his weight is transferred, and actually drops into more of a level blade, or most certainly off the pick and more towards the top half of the flat. Because he's pushing off the ice from that, it's really not a flip anymore and really more of a loop technique.

I know some of these conspiracy-type posters and drama videos can be annoying, but some are actually good at pointing out fundamental technique issues/cheats.

And FWIW, I still remember to this day pointing out back in circa 2003 that Liashenko had a really good example of a Lutz where the toe pick went in and she lifted off from it, while many other ladies did not. So this isn't something very new, I just think it's getting more severe with the quad attempts.

Another example: Khoydkin's absolutely terrible 3F attempt:

Pavliuchenko & Khodykin RUS Free Skate 2020 European Championships

Pavliuchenko & Khodykin RUS Free Skate 2020 European Championships

www.youtube.com

He's really turning that blade almost a full rotation before he finally gets off the ice, and it's definitely not off the toe pick once he does do it. Compare it to what his partner is doing. She actually uses the toe pick to lift herself off the ice- there's such a drastic difference illustrated here.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

With all the time everyone has been away from on-ice training, nobody will have anything more than a double toe!

 

[Marco]

Did that ever happen? I always thought it should have, but I don't think it ever did. In the first season of IJS, any underrotation of more than 1/4 was reduced to the lower jump on protocols, but somehow Corwin escaped (at least that I remember).

I have very strong memory about this because I remember thinking 'she deserved that call', but this is 15+ years ago so I could be wrong. Unfortunately the older protocols are no longer accessible.

 

[muffinplus]

Another example: Khoydkin's absolutely terrible 3F attempt:

Pavliuchenko & Khodykin RUS Free Skate 2020 European Championships

Pavliuchenko & Khodykin RUS Free Skate 2020 European Championships

www.youtube.com

He's really turning that blade almost a full rotation before he finally gets off the ice, and it's definitely not off the toe pick once he does do it. Compare it to what his partner is doing. She actually uses the toe pick to lift herself off the ice- there's such a drastic difference illustrated here.

I see about 180 degrees not a full rotation... Pavlyuchenko definitely takes off much sooner in the air (hers is about 90?) and hers looks more like a tap, but even in slow motion . I'm personally having hard time seeing where his blade is exactly in relation to the ice from that angle

Anyways, whatever. ... I'm curious if ISU actually intends to do anything with these wordings or if they will clarify them otherwise twitter fans will surely have their pitchforks out again

 

[tony]

I see about 180 degrees not a full rotation... Pavlyuchenko definitely takes off much sooner in the air (hers is about 90?) and hers looks more like a tap, but even in slow motion . I'm personally having hard time seeing where his blade is exactly in relation to the ice from that angle

Anyways, whatever. ... I'm curious if ISU actually intends to do anything with these wordings or if they will clarify them otherwise twitter fans will surely have their pitchforks out again

He’s at 90 degrees when he actually picks in to begin with- that’s how turned his body is from the start. From the second he bends that leg so much to pick in, he’s already leaning and not planning on taking off of the toe pick. I would say it’s somewhere ~270 degrees that he actually gets off the ice, and he’s not on the toe pick at all anymore. Freeze the image at any point when they are taking off and you’ll see the drastic difference. He isn’t doing a flip. At all. It’s noticeable even in real-time. To me, these are the situations that need repeatedly called by the technical panel so I don’t know.. the skaters maybe go back and fix their technique.

 

[tony]

Satoko Miyahara - epic flip 3F pre-rotation

Сатоко Мияхара

youtu.be

Here’s an example of another complete non-flip. And the blade IS flat here. Flip toe pick to start, turns completely around now like it’s a loop take-off, and then pushes off when she’s 3/4 of the way through the first rotation. Not even 2 rotations off the ice, yet it’s called clean plenty of times.

 

[MR-FAN]

Satoko Miyahara - epic flip 3F pre-rotation

Сатоко Мияхара

youtu.be

Here’s an example of another complete non-flip. And the blade IS flat here. Flip toe pick to start, turns completely around now like it’s a loop take-off, and then pushes off when she’s 3/4 of the way through the first rotation. Not even 2 rotations off the ice, yet it’s called clean plenty of times.

Last warning. Next time I’m banning you for a week.
#SatokoDoesNoWrong

 

[Jarrett]

Satoko Miyahara - epic flip 3F pre-rotation

Сатоко Мияхара

youtu.be

Here’s an example of another complete non-flip. And the blade IS flat here. Flip toe pick to start, turns completely around now like it’s a loop take-off, and then pushes off when she’s 3/4 of the way through the first rotation. Not even 2 rotations off the ice, yet it’s called clean plenty of times.

This jump was not called clean. It would be a better example if the video showed a problem and it was called clean instead of saying a jump was called clean plenty of times. No doubt that was a horrible jump all around though.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpf1718/data0205.pdf

Koola King Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqVreuD7A0 They are tacky videos but speak the truth. lol

 

[tony]

This jump was not called clean. It would be a better example if the video showed a problem and it was called clean instead of saying a jump was called clean plenty of times. No doubt that was a horrible jump all around though.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpf1718/data0205.pdf

Her technique does not change.

2019 WC Satoko Miyahara FS ESP

Blocked in South Korea

www.youtube.com

2019 Worlds Lutz

Satoko Miyahara - 2018 Japanese Nationals FS

www.youtube.com

2018-2019 Japanese Nationals Lutz

Satoko Miyahara. Skate America 2017, FS (Winer)

www.youtube.com

2017 Skate America Lutz

Satoko Miyahara. Skate America 2017, FS (Winer)

www.youtube.com

2017 Skate America flip - not in slo-mo but you can do it yourself in the player. Same technique issues as always. All clean calls.

I'll add plenty more links.

 

[Jarrett]

Her technique does not change.

2019 WC Satoko Miyahara FS ESP

Blocked in South Korea

www.youtube.com

2019 Worlds Lutz

Satoko Miyahara - 2018 Japanese Nationals FS

www.youtube.com

2018-2019 Japanese Nationals Lutz

I'll add plenty more links.

I think we are both on the same page that Satoko has bad technique on the "toe" jumps. I am not saying it changed, I am just saying you posted a video that was called an error on a flip jump while also saying it is called clean many times. Now you are posting about lutz jumps. The lutz pre-rotation is pretty bad in the Worlds video and got good GOE but the Nationals video she got almost neutral GOE for it.

 

[tony]

I am not saying it changed, I am just saying you posted a video that was called an error on a flip jump while also saying it is called clean many times. Now you are posting about lutz jumps. It is a bit bizarre. The lutz pre-rotation is pretty bad in the Worlds video and got good GOE but the Nationals video she got almost neutral GOE for it.

I'm adding links as I said I was (including the flip), but the Lutz technique she's doing the exact same thing.

 

[Jarrett]

I'm adding links as I said I was (including the flip), but the Lutz technique she's doing the exact same thing.

See my edited post. I am definitely not saying Satoko has good technique on either jump. I am just saying it is better to post videos where they were called clean and have problems. Like the Worlds one you just posted.

 

[tony]

See my edited post. I am definitely not saying Satoko has good technique on either jump. I am just saying it is better to post videos where they were called clean and have problems. Like the Worlds one you just posted.

That video slows down the flip (which most replays from competitions do not do, it's typically the Lutzes they show for her) but it perfectly demonstrates what we were discussing at that point- the going down to the flat of the blade to push off like a loop. I can post all of these real-time flip videos but then people will say they can't see it, either on the take-off or landing.

 

[Jarrett]

For all those people post a tutorial to show them how to use the slow mo setting on youtube. lol The Worlds one was the funniest with Eurosport saying the pre-rotation doesn't matter.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, whatever the judges give Satoko credit for with regard to jumps, they take away with aspects of PCS. It's not like she's running away winning things these days.

 

[tony]

Well, whatever the judges give Satoko credit for with regard to jumps, they take away with aspects of PCS. It's not like she's running away winning things these days.

I can agree with you there to an extent. I think she deserves among the highest PCS in most categories. But I still don’t think any of these skaters should get away with such glaring mechanics flaws— ever, when some are scrutinized to no end for their changes of edge or their quarter-turn underrotations when they more or less lift off immediately on take-off.

Uno’s 4F is probably the biggest huh? in recent memory. It’s not even close to a flip.

 

[VGThuy]

That's true. I just think there are so many things wrong with the application of the judging system as is that it seems like beating down when we talk about skaters who aren't really given the benefit-of-doubt overall compared to others. I guess we can fix the judging system one day when it comes to bad technique, but we'll never fix many other aspects of it. I guess this is just something that is considered "objective" so it's something "easier" to fix (and happens to fit the likes of Koola King's biases). I'm also afraid it's going to turn into what gymnastics has become, but that's another topic and not quite logical. Let's just say the judging system has gotten better but the gymnastics outside of the likes of Simone Biles has not even if there is more difficulty more-or-less (except when compared to some superstars of the past).

ETA: Ok, I watched that tacky Koola King video. You guys are right. Some of those "Lutzes" are loops. I thought Flutzing was bad, and there really is a ton of rotation happening on the ice before lift-off.

 

[tony]

ISU should just spend time working on another column for the already-busy additions in the new scale of values- one for floop and one for lootz. Automatically with the << sign

 

[VGThuy]

ISU should just spend time working on another column for the already-busy additions in the new scale of values- one for floop and one for lootz. Automatically with the << sign

You know, I wonder if it takes the "crazy" ones to actually tell the truth regarding certain things due to their unbridled obsession and time spent on such things. There was a crazy Tessa/Scott fan who did all sorts of things regarding the pattern dances and other things and heavily criticized a certain top ice dance team, but I have to say it was kind of convincing when I read their analysis of the Ravensburger Waltz. Of course, their bias and hyperbole took away from whatever good points they were making.

 

[miffy]

With all the time everyone has been away from on-ice training, nobody will have anything more than a double toe!

If any of the guys do a 3s2t as their combo this season we’ll probably accept it

 

[vesperholly]

Koola King Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqVreuD7A0 They are tacky videos but speak the truth. lol

Ugh, why does this always boil down to some crazy Yuna uber insisting her technique is the most perfect perfection that the world has ever had to behold? Her lutz at 4:30 is meh, sure she's on a BO edge but zero counter rotation of the upper body. Take a seat.

 

[mjb52]

I am a bad fan and just can't bring myself to care about any of this. So long as it is a rough approximation of what the jump is supposed to look like and landed with reasonable cleanness, I'm good, I'm just here for the sequins and drama. The obsessive twitter crew takes a lot of the fun out of skating. Skating is supposed to be fun!

 

[muffinplus]

He’s at 90 degrees when he actually picks in to begin with- that’s how turned his body is from the start. From the second he bends that leg so much to pick in, he’s already leaning and not planning on taking off of the toe pick. I would say it’s somewhere ~270 degrees that he actually gets off the ice, and he’s not on the toe pick at all anymore. Freeze the image at any point when they are taking off and you’ll see the drastic difference. He isn’t doing a flip. At all. It’s noticeable even in real-time. To me, these are the situations that need repeatedly called by the technical panel so I don’t know.. the skaters maybe go back and fix their technique.

I don't agree with you. Again, what i see is that he just rotates more on the toe pick (using the lower part of the blade) which drops more than Pavlyuchenko's... she takes off quite a bit faster after planting it into the ice. So even in slow mo, it is not like his blade is on the ice... it looks like he plants the blade on the ice because he is rotating more before take off. it's not a flip because he rotates more on the toe pick and has 180 degree prerotation? Is there a rule about that?

 

[Vagabond]

I don't agree with you. Again, what i see is that he just rotates more on the toe pick (using the lower part of the blade) which drops more than Pavlyuchenko's... she takes off quite a bit faster after planting it into the ice. So even in slow mo, it is not like his blade is on the ice... it looks like he plants the blade on the ice because he is rotating more before take off. it's not a flip because he rotates more on the toe pick and has 180 degree prerotation? Is there a rule about that?

I remember asking a similar question of some judges here on FSU and was told that the Technical Panel would call the jump as what the skater intended it to be, namely a flip. A downgrade and negative GOE (a mandatory -5 in the SP) should necessarily follow.

I can see the logic behind this. Calling an intended flip as a loop could result in the invalidation of a properly executed loop elsewhere in the program. Calling it an unlisted jump would create problems of its own and really throw everyone for a loop.

 

[alchemy void]

If any of the guys do a 3s2t as their combo this season we’ll probably accept it

Nic Nadeau did this as his combo LAST season.

 

[muffinplus]

Ugh, why does this always boil down to some crazy Yuna uber insisting her technique is the most perfect perfection that the world has ever had to behold? Her lutz at 4:30 is meh, sure she's on a BO edge but zero counter rotation of the upper body. Take a seat.

Because GODDESS QUEEN YUNA111111!!!!! Pure textbook toe-pick triple lutz111!!!!

seriously Yuna bored me so much as a skater

 

[DreamSkates]

My two cents..(given as little as I know about the technical side of jumps)...

Are the changes an effort to push skaters to have better quality jumps (fully rotated - no prerotations, etc.)?

Are the changes an effort to have more meticulous scrutiny with the next Olympics coming up so the medal winners have been more "closely" (rotations, edges, GEO, etc.) judged on their abilities? (given judges have their own perceptions and interpretations as some have mentioned when scoring jumps) - in other words, an effort to be more fair in judging by being more meticulous (leaves less to personal interpretation)? Is this an effort to score skaters more fairly?

I do agree with at least one poster who said there needs to be more than one technical panel - I would suggest a panel of technicians the same as the judges. The judges would receive the average or median of each technical panel member's take on things. Or is that not possible?

How long would a competition be if every jump were slo-motion-reviewed by a technical specialist?
Maybe there could be one of these specialists reviewing in slow motion, during the program while another technical specialist or two, continue to do the usual?

I do not get the rationale of jumps having equal points if they are not equally difficult. Do the people making these decisions skate or have skated? What's the point of equalizing everything?

I don't get the double-points for quads vs triples. Granted quads are much harder, but twice the points?
That said, I am still going to watch figure skating as often as possible, and "ignorance is bliss" in my case! So it won't be nearly as aggravating to me, as for those of you who know so much more!

I want a big bunch of points for artistry. Judges have to feel something beyond checking off that the skater did this or that to choreography, to give the points!

 

[DreamSkates]

@vesperholly @Miki89 - Here's something you might also enjoy. Viktor Pfeifer was so highly underrated IMO, and he was always coming up with creative entrances into his Lutz

Nice 2012 ICE - MEN SP -14/31- Viktor PFEIFER - 30/03/2012

Segment score: 60.61 TUTTO in sezione SKATING de La Riserva forum http://lariserva.forumcommunity.net

www.youtube.com

ISU ZAGREB 2013 -18/31- MEN SP - Viktor PFEIFER - 24.01.2013

Segment score: 67.34 TUTTO in sezione SKATING de La Riserva forum http://lariserva.forumcommunity.net

www.youtube.com

That second one is one of my absolute favorite bits of choreography into a jump in the IJS era, but both are extremely complex and unique!

Thank you for sharing these links. There was some beautiful, musical skating (I forgot about noticing the jumps). Especially when he landed a jump, then kept the position while skating out on a curve.
Some of skating has become so busy these days that I relish when a skater can "hold the moment", when done with ease and balance, it's beautiful.

 

[rfisher]

I want a big bunch of points for artistry. Judges have to feel something beyond checking off that the skater did this or that to choreography, to give the points!

What do they have to feel? Does annoyance, boredom, sheer trainwreckness, fascination, count? I've felt that about a lot of performances that won medals. And loved many that didn't.