The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

To me the Montreal style is more like jazz/modern on the ice, a little abstract with a storyline that is open for the viewer to interpret.
 
mollymgr said:
To me the Montreal style is more like jazz/modern on the ice, a little abstract with a storyline that is open for the viewer to interpret.
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But then how would you describe what Canton and the Shibs did last year?
 
Dobre said:
Soft & flowy music with interesting, original lifts; fast but less-intricate footwork; and romantic themes, generally lacking conflict. Good extension, deep edges, clean lines, few transitions, and programs that belong at a wedding, but rarely reflect the trials of dating, the sex of the honeymoon, the difficulties of the marriage, or the reasons for the divorce.
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I think you were right to write about a "trend", not a "rule". When we look at V/M's and Smart/Diaz's last season FDs and the two last FDs of Fournier-Beaudry/Sorensen, they were all about love, but it definitely was not all sunshine and roses. You mentioned P/C's last FD, but their 2015/2016 season FD was about their friendship and partnership, not about love. Hubbell/Donohue's FD for the same season was initially more abstract and dramatic - it had evolved into a program about simple love until Worlds, but it still had some drama. Lauriault/Le Gack's last junior FD (also for the 2015/2016 season) was not quite in that soft, romantic style either (it was to The Beatles 'Come Together').

As for the "original" lifts, I don't quite agree. P/C have had a few that were not acrobatic, but were beautiful and original at the time. Lauriault/Le Gack have their trademark difficult lifts, which I think come from themselves and not so much from their coaches as they are very different from what their other teams do. The same can be said about Robledo/Fenero. But if you look at what all the other teams do, as well as some of P/C's lifts, they are quite similar in most cases and not very original at all (especially this can be said about F-B/S whose skating I like). I think they go more for musicality and flow of the elements (meaning, elements must always accentuate the music and story/intent of the program, as well as be part of the flow of the program when one thing flows seamlessly into the other) rather than for difficulty and originality.
 
sap5 said:
But then how would you describe what Canton and the Shibs did last year?
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It falls in the same category. Not saying that other coaches don't it for their teams. e.g. Weaver/Poje had their programs too well before Montreal was the hottest coaching around the planet. Montreal seems to use this genre most frequently across all their teams.
 
lauravvv said:
As for the "original" lifts, I don't quite agree. P/C have had a few that were not acrobatic, but were beautiful and original at the time. Lauriault/Le Gack have their trademark difficult lifts, which I think come from themselves and not so much from their coaches as they are very different from what their other teams do. The same can be said about Robledo/Fenero. But if you look at what all the other teams do, as well as some of P/C's lifts, they are quite similar in most cases and not very original at all (especially this can be said about F-B/S whose skating I like).
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I think the lifts feel more common & repetitive now; but that is never how I felt about D&L as a team and is not the impression I had when they initially came onto the scene as coaches. (Hurtado & Diaz played with a variety of lifts, for example). Perhaps it is that we are now seeing many more teams from the rink so we see the repetitive positions, while when someone new comes onto the scene the choreography feels more unique because there are only one or two teams with that choreographer.

I have to say that I think Carol Lane is an example of this. If you only see Gilles & Poirier, then they seem more unique than if you also see Kuzmichova & Sinicyn. There are a lot of similarities within the two teams, and while I particularly enjoyed K&S two years ago, I find their program this season disappointing because it doesn't feel like the style of presentation for this team has changed. When the qualities that make you special are your uniqueness and then the uniqueness stops feeling unique . . . it's a bit of a letdown. And it's something I'm sure all successful dance coaches face.

I also really think there needs to be a serious discussion about opening up the possibilities with the lifts. Weaver & Poje, McNamara & Carpenter, the Shibs--they've all ditched some pretty spectacular lifts over the past couple seasons after not getting the marks. I know the choreographic lifts were supposed to help with this dilemma; but still there is so much repetition. I don't mind rewarding teams for doing the same lifts; but I really disagree with punishing the ones who are pushing the boundaries & trying to keep the sport fresh as well as unique.
 
LilJen said:
I find it frustrating too that USFS & the IOC & the media promote lesser-ranked singles skaters above higher-ranked and more accomplished ice dancers. I would guess it stems from the "it's all about the jumps" attitude and the "ice dance isn't really a sport" attitude. :mad:
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The attention that a lesser-ranked single skater might receive is not necessarily due exclusively to the jumps, there's more to it than that.

Ice dance does suffer a credibility problem, a stigma, if you will, of not really being considered a 'true' sport in the U.S. In many cases, it is most often viewed as being little more than a Dancing with the Stars or ballroom dancing competition.

Most casual viewers or fans are more interested in the individual disciplines, which is why many federations turn their focus and subsequent promotion almost exclusively toward them.

Pairs' teams (of the past) did enjoy and experience some traction in the U.S., but only if there had been notable success, which there was. The same cannot be said for ice dance. It has not been able to completely turn the corner, despite the fact they've had the most recent success. Sad, but true.
 
Weve3 said:
Most casual viewers or fans are more interested in the individual disciplines, which is why many federations turn their focus and subsequent promotion almost exclusively toward them.
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In general, but I doubt that casual fans are more interested in Mariah or Vincent than in the Shibs or H/D. It is not only probable that they get an olympic spot, but they have very, very high probabilities to be skating in the last group, when everyone will be watching.I think the organizers just showed ignorance, I'm not a marketing specialist, but how does it make sense to invest money and time in someone you do not even know if they will make the team and leave out someone who is almost 100% sure to be in the Olympics? .
 
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Weve3 said:
Ice dance does suffer a credibility problem, a stigma, if you will, of not really being considered a 'true' sport in the U.S. In many cases, it is most often viewed as being little more than a Dancing with the Stars.
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If this were true, then ice dance would receive more press, not less.

If the U.S. press misses the story because they fail to pay attention to one of the few real Olympic figure skating medal contenders prior to the Games, it will serve the press right. Last year was the second time in this quadrennium that a U.S. dance team came home with the only world medal for U.S. figure skating. I'm rooting for Nathan & the rest of team USA as well and there are at least 8 teams that could challenge for that Olympic dance podium, but the rise of U.S. dance--the first time ever in history that the United States has had the potential to field a full team of medal contenders--is a story. It's a real story. A whole lot bigger than whether Ashley is wearing clothes in a photo shoot.
 
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Dobre said:
If this were true, then ice dance would receive more press, not less.
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Sure, I agree, as far as popularity might go, and if ice dance could achieve the level of Dancing with the Stars kind of fame, but as far as being considered a sport … A lot of people can’t get there.

Dobre said:
If the U.S. press misses the story because they fail to pay attention to one of the few real Olympic figure skating medal contenders prior to the Games, it will serve the press right.
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Absolutely!

Dobre said:
but the rise of U.S. dance--the first time ever in history that the United States has had the potential to field a full team of medal contenders--is a story. It's a real story. A whole lot bigger than whether Ashley is wearing clothes in a photo shoot.
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:lol: Also, true, but the latter will always overshadow the substantive content.
 
Am I the only person who was slightly blinded by the massive tutu worn by Polishchuk in their Swan Lake free dance? I wondered if Vakhnov's partnering is affected by it. With costume like this, I guess the standard that dance partners should skate close to each other is indeed dead.
 
Jun Y said:
Am I the only person who was slightly blinded by the massive tutu worn by Polishchuk in their Swan Lake free dance?
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It was ridiculous:rofl:. I would have been much more impressed if she moved more like a ballet dancer. But the music is powerful & those twizzles are well placed. You have to give the program that.

Meanwhile, Nguyen & Kolesnik's Maria FD . . . I think I will go rewatch it for the fifth time. And the one song I normally don't even like in West Side Story is Maria.
 
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Yeah, it was excessively huge, and sometimes moved in distracting ways, aside from keeping them a mile apart. I also found the music cuts odd- good on them for trying for some different selections, but the order and flow was weird to me.

I liked Nguyen/Kolesnik, they have a lot of charm and speed. I did sometimes find their size difference distracting, especially when they were skating the pattern in the short, but that's something that should sort itself out, and I really enjoyed their performances.
 
For starters, the only network(NBC) that obtains exclusive rights in the US for major skating events does such a bad job with any live broadcasts. Stale tape delayed and truncated events with more ads and fluff pieces than actual event. We have the singles skater duo of Johnny and Tara providing commentary. Dance is always an afterthought on the main NBC channel. If the US medals at the event, they will paste in one Free Dance if they feel like it. The federation's promotion is only slightly better.
 
mollymgr said:
For starters, the only network(NBC) that obtains exclusive rights in the US for major skating events does such a bad job with any live broadcasts. Stale tape delayed and truncated events with more ads and fluff pieces than actual event. We have the singles skater duo of Johnny and Tara providing commentary. Dance is always an afterthought on the main NBC channel. If the US medals at the event, they will paste in one Free Dance if they feel like it. The federation's promotion is only slightly better.
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I'll never understand this attitude. Ice dance is by far the strongest American discipline. The federation and the media are the ones who "made" the singles skaters of the 90s into stars, back when those skaters were also top skaters. Instead of constantly trying to anoint a new "ice princess" and having them falter at the top, why not apply that same promotion to the ice dancers who are actually getting somewhere? Or maybe I'm just a salty ice dance fan :p
 
msmandaskates said:
I'll never understand this attitude. Ice dance is by far the strongest American discipline. The federation and the media are the ones who "made" the singles skaters of the 90s into stars, back when those skaters were also top skaters. Instead of constantly trying to anoint a new "ice princess" and having them falter at the top, why not apply that same promotion to the ice dancers who are actually getting somewhere? Or maybe I'm just a salty ice dance fan :p
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You're just a salty ice dance fan. Ice dance doesn't make any sense to the once-in-4-years figure skating fan, and no commentator knows how to explain what's happening. So how can anyone make sense of why a team comes in 2nd or 3rd? It doesn't make sense to promote it unless you know for sure USA is walking away with gold.
 
Ice dancing is very entertaining for us, even if we're not sure what the real differences are between many of the teams that score close together, because we understand skating in a basic level. For casual Olympic watchers, without that knowledge, I'm not sure if the actual dances for the most part are entertaining enough to really hold their attention unless their country has a chance at gold. Without the risky/danger factor of jumps and what-not, it just looks like people skating side-by-side emoting and doing a lot of the same edgework and non-overhead lifts. I think that's why I think out of all the ice dance elements, twizzles seem to excite regular audiences the most just because for some reason they seem like a move where people can fall and have fallen on.
 
This is anecdotal and so obviously doesn't go for everyone, but as someone who, alongside several friends, first got seriously into figure skating by watching ice dance, I can assure you that I found the scoring of all the disciplines based on baffling moon logic and enjoyed the performance quality of the dance teams the most. Its likely that all three US dance teams will be medal contenders, and its not like commentators have never massaged the truth and exaggerated an athlete's chances for gold before. Maybe ice dance is impossible to make compelling, but it's not like they've seriously tried. Again, this is anecdotal, but the casual every four year fans I've encountered aren't uninterested in ice dance so much as unaware of its existence.
 
Most casual viewers don't know the difference between pairs and ice dance and think it is the same thing.:wall: Some get disappointed that ice dance doesn't have jumps or throws. Some are just looking to see splatfests at the Olympics and it doesn't matter what discipline.:EVILLE::rolleyes: On top of of all this, figure skating scoring is quite complicated for a fan to understand and so subjective. :confused: We seem to be the outliers that take this so seriously.:lol:

Here is the USFSA factsheet. The numbers show why they focus on the ladies events. There is a very good business case for it.
http://www.usfsa.org/content/FactSheet.pdf
 
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sap5 said:
You're just a salty ice dance fan. Ice dance doesn't make any sense to the once-in-4-years figure skating fan, and no commentator knows how to explain what's happening. So how can anyone make sense of why a team comes in 2nd or 3rd? It doesn't make sense to promote it unless you know for sure USA is walking away with gold.
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Shame on you for thinking and saying this. FYI, there are a bunch of people who are actually devoted Ice Dance fans and no matter how you turn things upside down, there's no denying that the US Federation NEEDS to promote Ice Dance a whole lot more.
 
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supergirl573 said:
Why would casual fans become invested in ice dance?
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:D
-Because it is the most entertaining discipline. The discipline in which the athletes commit the most time & energy toward relating to the audience.
-Because it is the most musical. Because there is no jump set up, the athletes have more time to reflect the nuances of the music for the audience.
-Because there is a relationship on the ice. In ice dance, one never has to try to empathize with Romeo or Juliet without Romeo & Juliet.
-Because it has become unpredictable. The results in the short & free constantly changed last year. Athletes did, in fact, climb the ranks. And they did, in fact, tumble down them.
-Because it's a soap opera on skates. Drama. Rivalries. Partner & coaching swaps. Deep national divides. International love affairs. What's not to love?
-Because when you see the right dance performance it touches your soul & and you could watch it again a million times. (Yes, this happens in every discipline. And it happens to casual viewers watching every discipline).
-World Championships in which entire teams of athletes seem to share the same bottle of hair dye?
-Twizzles.
-And fizzled twizzles.
-Because your favorite team just might win. And when they do, it will be epic. Because either it's an epic fight to the top or it's an incredibly rare early breakthrough.
-Because the potential for costume disasters is tremendous.
-Because the athletes stay in the sport long enough to be worth the emotional investment. The audience can fall in love with dance teams at an Olympics & see those same athletes return at the next Olympics & the next Olympics.
-Because the athletes commit 100% to the performance.


I was a casual figure skating fan. I'm obviously a serious fan now. I have always loved figure skating, but I became a serious fan when I fell in love with ice dance. PROOF!

There are SERIOUS dance fans. Serious fans of all forms of dance. And there are some serious sports-related arguments for becoming an ice dance fan. But why is it that people think that the competitive aspects of the sport are the only elements of ice dance that might appeal to a viewer on television? Ice dance has a great deal to offer its audience. Both as a competitive sport and as an art form.
 
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