The Dance Hall, Part 4: To Helsinki & Back -- Seeking Rhumba Magic ...

[aftershocks]

OMG! I've got a bad bad case of Trainwreck Curse Ice Dance Blues!!! WTH is going on??? What was that? An episode of Gremlins on Ice?

Here's to Scott Moir, the picky & choosy tech panel, V/M fans, and the judges:

Here's to C/B and H/D: (((Hugs)))

Here's to P/C: (((Hugs)))

Here's to the Shibs: On the Worlds podium again with absolutely NO help from the judges or the tech panel! But unfortunately, some unwilling help from their teammates.

It could have been Madi & Zach this time winning the World bronze medal, and that would have been somethin'! How could Zach slip when they were skating such a lovely program? One of the best FDs out there this season! Skate Gods, you don't play fair!

After Zach slipped, I couldn't watch anymore. It was all set up for them to shine skating last. Would it have helped if they'd skated a few spots earlier? How do they come back from this? After all their dedicated hard work, they came so close to beating both S/S and C/B, but end up not only botching their chance for a World medal, but being dropped by the judges (in the standings) like a scalding hot potato!

One rhetorical question: How come V/M get all the love? Not fair! if the judges were gonna move C/B down so much behind several teams for Evan's twizzle miscues, and send Madi/Zach to the depths of hell, why the hell couldn't they bring themselves to fairly drop V/M one spot down to second where they absolutely belonged?! Everybody keeps talking about V/M's boffo SD. Well, P/C's FD improved by leaps and bounds over the course of the season to epic proportions at both Europeans, and especially Worlds! V/M's FD is not as bad as it was at the start of the season, but it's not that great either. V/M skated to gold on their reputation in Helsinki, with a lot of gifts from the judges in the SD and in the FD. Judges apparently are too gutless to upset the applecart where V/M are concerned.

Meanwhile, the Russians' not-so-secret plan to move the much improved but still not that good Bobrova/Soloviev up to bronze medal contention for the Olympics is in full party-mode swing. And I mean they got the vodka and the caviar ready to go for the big celebration they are planning in PyeongChang for team B/S. Could it be any clearer?

Let's see how all the teams regroup after this musical chairs surprise that ends up not so surprising at the top. Gaby & Guillaume are definitely not happy about this outcome. I don't care how sweetly they will smile and be diplomatic. The camera caught the look on both their faces just before V/M's expected over-generous winning marks came up. In the kiss 'n cry, Scott Moir did not smile too much, because he knows he f'ed up.

G&G's unhappy facial expressions back stage seem portentous of avenging angels. Maybe that should be the motivating theme for their programs next season.

Ohhhh, Team Montreal came so close to happily celebrating three ice dance teams on the Worlds podium. Instead they end up with increased tensions between their two top teams, and their beautifully improved American team are gonna need some kind of uplifting intervention after this roller coaster nightmare.

Helsinki seems so harmless, picturesque and pretty, which proves that looks are always deceiving.

 

[aka_gerbil]

After Zach slipped, I couldn't watch anymore. It was all set up for them to shine skating last. Would it have helped if they'd skated a few spots earlier? How do they come back from this? After all their dedicated hard work, they came so close to beating both S/S and C/B, but end up not only botching their chance for a World medal, but being dropped by the judges (in the standings) like a scalding hot potato!

It would have helped if someone coaching them had had the sense to move that twizzle sequence after the GPF at the latest. The placement so late has been a disaster waiting to happen all season long. I think most any other coach would have moved it long ago.

How do they come back from this? Learn how to handle the pressure and skate with consistency. From the word "go" next season, every single outing, no falls, no major mistakes. What happened at worlds was not a fluke or freak thing. It's the third time this season they have botched something when they had the chance to make a move up the standings.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ You're right. I'm such a 'fraidy-cat myself that I couldn't watch yet another disappointment for H/D. They were so happy in the kiss 'n cry after the SD. It looks like they didn't recover well in the FD after Zach's fall if they were dropped that far in the standings! But the judging placement decisions in general are suspect.

The other issue though is the fact V/M might as well be awarded the Pyeongchang gold medal now. Why wait till next year?

I know that some fans will justify V/M points by saying Moir didn't slip on an element and he got up quickly. So what! He also had a slight bobble on his first twizzle sequence, and he wasn't that perfect in the SD either. Plus V/M's FD, while improved, is not really the best FD in ice dance this season.

I have been fairly neutral this season re V/M vs P/C. And I was happy for V/M finally winning GPF gold, but the overall results in Helsinki were unfair after the way P/C skated in the FD, vs V/M. It's quite obvious that V/M won on reputation rather than performance. If the tables were turned against V/M's favor in a tight battle with a rival who clearly made a mistake, Scott Moir would loudly cry foul. We are all familiar with his unsportsmanlike complaints in the past about scoring results. I know he's repented and he has been eager to come out this season with a fresh outlook and positive energy. But even he knows they won this World title more than a tad imperfectly.

 

[marikat]

I was in Helsinki watching both dance events live. Tessa and Scott were amazing in the sd and they won it fairly. P/C made visible mistakes in the sd and their skate wasn't as strong as V/M's. While Scott did have a trip in the fd it didn't happen during an element and they skated beautifully. P/C skated their best fd yesterday and that showed in the marks. If P/C want to win next year, they need to stop making mistakes in the sd. I thought the event was scored correctly between top 2 couples, there was no fix.

And people need to give Scott a break. Of course he was disappointed after that mistake in the fd. But why always bring up something that he said many years ago?

Congrats to all skaters, it was a great week

 

[aftershocks]

Okay so I changed the thread title because @Dobre hinted that "Avenging Helsinki Tech-Death Panel" was too depressing. @Dobre as always makes a good point.

My other ideas for titles: Rhumba-ing to Perfection in Pyeongchang; Climbing Our Way Out of Hel-Sink-i (eek)! To Hel(sinki) and Back; PC-ing to Perfection in Pyeongchang; Shibs Shock & Awe with Perfect Abandon in Pyeongchang? What about: V/M Short on Perfection in Pyeongchang? Likely the last three suggestions will not be V/M fans' cup of tea.

In any case, there's plenty of time for a Part 5 and maybe a Part 6 dance thread well before Pyeongchang rolls around. So I guess first dibs on the first alternative title suggestion, eh?

 

[Dobre]

Okay so I changed the thread title because @Dobre hinted that "Avenging Helsinki Tech-Death Panel" was too depressing. @Dobre as always makes a good point.
So I guess first dibs on the first alternative title suggestion, eh?

Thanks Aftershocks! I appreciate your brainstorming ideas. Someone messaged me and asked if we could come up with a neutral title. Which was nice because The Dance Hall is really a place for us to be able to talk about all the dance teams. It's so late I'm not very creative right now. (I'm so boring. I just like The Dance Hall because umpteen years ago when I first fell in love with ice dance, I imagined that if I had time to start a webpage I would dedicate it to all the ice dance teams and call it The Dance Hall. So it was kind of you to keep that).

Hopefully people will have some good ideas. If not, I'm happy to help brainstorm in the morning (if that's not too late for editing?)

 

[aftershocks]

I was in Helsinki watching both dance events live. Tessa and Scott were amazing in the sd and they won it fairly. P/C made visible mistakes in the sd and their skate wasn't as strong as V/M's. While Scott did have a trip in the fd it didn't happen during an element and they skated beautifully. P/C skated their best fd yesterday and that showed in the marks. If P/C want to win next year, they need to stop making mistakes in the sd. I thought the event was scored correctly between top 2 couples, there was no fix.

And people need to give Scott a break. Of course he was disappointed after that mistake in the fd. But why always bring up something that he said many years ago?

Congrats to all skaters, it was a great week

Awww @marikat, as I said, I was happy for V/M finally winning GPF. And I definitely appreciate the fact that Scott has tried to apologize for his past petulant behavior, and he truly wants to put it behind him. Yet, some V/M fans often still make reference to V/M feeling their rivals in Canton were being 'favored.' It's too bad that such unhelpful thinking keeps being brought up. It will be easier for everyone else to stop recalling such negativity from Scott, if all V/M fans could ensure they stop referencing their own individual bitterness toward D/W. Perhaps now that D/W have announced their retirement from eligible competition, most of that bitterness toward them will not raise it's ugly head quite as often. But it has been evident still in some threads.

Of course Scott didn't fall on an element, but he still fell. And he still was noticeably a tad shaky on the first twizzle sequence even though he pulled it together quickly. If other teams made noticeable errors like that, fans would be all over it to complain if the judges ignored the error. In addition, V/M's FD is not overall better than P/C's, and particularly not the way P/C skated. P/C brought tears to the audience's eyes the way they skated their FD. P/C's SD is okay, but not the best out there, as it's not particularly a good style for them. However, they have managed to make improvements to it over the course of the season, and they skated well. I think V/M definitely win the SD on merit, but their score was a tad overly high. Some slight unsteadiness by V/M in the SD was not taken into account by the judges.

Definitely it was a great week for figure skating fans, and especially for Canadian fans, eh! The only things Canadian fans missed out on was a repeat win by D/R and obtaining a third spot for their men. But with two Canadian ladies on the World podium; V/M back on top (even with a somewhat controversial win); W/P placing well; the pairs maintaining three spots; and Patrick still in the top five, to want more would be very greedy. Already Canada is in an excellent position to deservedly battle successfully for team gold at the Olympics. So please do allow other fans to speak their minds about the P/C vs V/M rivalry. And thank you.

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks Aftershocks! I appreciate your brainstorming ideas. Someone messaged me and asked if we could come up with a neutral title. Which was nice because The Dance Hall is really a place for us to be able to talk about all the dance teams. It's so late I'm not very creative right now. (I'm so boring. I just like The Dance Hall because umpteen years ago when I first fell in love with ice dance, I imagined that if I had time to start a webpage I would dedicate it to all the ice dance teams and call it The Dance Hall. So it was kind of you to keep that).

Hopefully people will have some good ideas. If not, I'm happy to help brainstorm in the morning (if that's not too late for editing?)

Oh, so I see that "Avenging Angels Seek Rhumba Magic" is also not considered generic enough. Okay, I changed the title a third time. Hopefully, it finally meets sensitive ice dance fans' approval. A lot of fans must be hungover or otherwise occupied with traveling back from Helsinki I suppose. So no one got around to starting a new thread before I did.

I don't know how long it takes before a thread title can no longer be edited.

 

[Zazy]

So please do allow other fans to speak their minds about the P/C vs V/M rivalry. And thank you.

When did anyone say you weren't allowed to speak your mind? Disagreement or criticism is not censorship.

That said, this thread has been enjoyable to read because, despite differences of opinion, people generally showed respect to the skaters and other posters. Can't we celebrate ice dance and give our opinions without turning it into a fan war? Your post and title were deliberately provocative and not in the least bit conducive to discussion.

 

[aftershocks]

When did anyone say you weren't allowed to speak your mind? Disagreement or criticism is not censorship.

Yay!!! Glad you get it @Zazy. I really enjoy so many skaters in general, including many ice dance teams. While I respect and admire V/M, I was never that drawn to them. Unfortunately, back-in-the-day, the over-aggression of their fans was a huge turn-off as well. I do enjoy watching many of V/M's programs, and I found their pre-season interview with Rod Black interesting. It's been a really nice season for them in their comeback. I think P/C have struggled a bit all season with their SD, and at the same time, having to deal with the subtle change in pecking order at their training camp. Seemingly everyone has handled it well, and that's likely to continue. It will be interesting to see how P/C handle knowing how good they were and that V/M faltered and did not win the FD but still won overall.

In any case, I do like to give full credit where full credit is due. And it definitely can be argued that P/C might have deserved to win overall after their masterful FD performance. Either way, the final score should have been even tighter than 2+ points (either practically a tie, or P/C slightly edging V/M).

I know there are a lot of positive and sensible V/M fans. And it is a good idea not to negatively retread those Canton waters. I'm all for it, and I thought it had been mostly put to rest. But once again, it's fresh in my mind because of V/M fans bringing it up still in recent other threads (a V/M interview thread, and even in D/W's competitive retirement announcement thread).

It's easy to be calm, amenable and self-righteous when your fave team wins over a rival team, especially when the outcome could have gone either way.

 

[morqet]

Moving on...

I was really pleased to see W/P move back up. Yes, they got some help from US teams making mistakes, but they were so far off the pace on the GP that 4th at Worlds is a huge achievement & will hopefully give them more confidence going into next season.

Ice Dance Olympic Qualification:
3 spots: USA & Canada
2 spots: Italy, France & Russia
1 spot: Israel, Denmark, Poland, Ukraine, China, Turkey & Spain

Who is in the fight for the 5 spots at Nebelhorn? Germany, South Korea, Japan, Great Britain (hopefully with a fully fit C/B by then) Finland & Czech Republic?

 

[marbri]

Denmark I assume will not use their spot since she will not get Danish citizenship. A shame because I think that team is really underrated.

 

[Zazy]

Does the South Korean team have citizenship?

I wish they'd change the Olympic rules so that only one member of the team needs to be a citizen. Not going to happen, I know...

 

[morqet]

Denmark I assume will not use their spot since she will not get Danish citizenship. A shame because I think that team is really underrated.

Does she have no chance of getting it? That's a pity. And Denmark doesn't have any junior teams coming up who could use it either.

Does Tchakencho also have his citizenship sorted? We could end up seeing even the Latvians or the Belorussians having a shot if a lot of countries have to give up the spots because of citizenship issues. And Spain could end up with a big selection headache again, or just sending Robledo/Fenero by default depending on what happens with Olivia & Kirill's applications.

Does the South Korean team have citizenship?

I wish they'd change the Olympic rules so that only one member of the team needs to be a citizen. Not going to happen, I know...

Don't know the specifics for them, but the general attitude in South Korea has been to grant citizenship for athletes so they can have a strong contingent at the games, (e.g. http://www.ibtimes.com/winter-olymp...alizing-foreign-athletes-path-success-2453882) so I doubt there would be a problem if they qualified a place.

 

[marbri]

No, she said in a recent interview it was impossible. That it's a long strict process in Denmark and there is no chance.

Not sure about the others.

 

[kittysk8ts]

OMG! I've got a bad bad case of Trainwreck Curse Ice Dance Blues!!! WTH is going on??? What was that? An episode of Gremlins on Ice?

Here's to Scott Moir, the picky & choosy tech panel, V/M fans, and the judges:

Here's to C/B and H/D: (((Hugs)))

Here's to P/C: (((Hugs)))

Here's to the Shibs: On the Worlds podium again with absolutely NO help from the judges or the tech panel! But unfortunately, some unwilling help from their teammates.

It could have been Madi & Zach this time winning the World bronze medal, and that would have been somethin'! How could Zach slip when they were skating such a lovely program? One of the best FDs out there this season! Skate Gods, you don't play fair!

After Zach slipped, I couldn't watch anymore. It was all set up for them to shine skating last. Would it have helped if they'd skated a few spots earlier? How do they come back from this? After all their dedicated hard work, they came so close to beating both S/S and C/B, but end up not only botching their chance for a World medal, but being dropped by the judges (in the standings) like a scalding hot potato!

One rhetorical question: How come V/M get all the love? Not fair! if the judges were gonna move C/B down so much behind several teams for Evan's twizzle miscues, and send Madi/Zach to the depths of hell, why the hell couldn't they bring themselves to fairly drop V/M one spot down to second where they absolutely belonged?! Everybody keeps talking about V/M's boffo SD. Well, P/C's FD improved by leaps and bounds over the course of the season to epic proportions at both Europeans, and especially Worlds! V/M's FD is not as bad as it was at the start of the season, but it's not that great either. V/M skated to gold on their reputation in Helsinki, with a lot of gifts from the judges in the SD and in the FD. Judges apparently are too gutless to upset the applecart where V/M are concerned.

Meanwhile, the Russians' not-so-secret plan to move the much improved but still not that good Bobrova/Soloviev up to bronze medal contention for the Olympics is in full party-mode swing. And I mean they got the vodka and the caviar ready to go for the big celebration they are planning in PyeongChang for team B/S. Could it be any clearer?

Let's see how all the teams regroup after this musical chairs surprise that ends up not so surprising at the top. Gaby & Guillaume are definitely not happy about this outcome. I don't care how sweetly they will smile and be diplomatic. The camera caught the look on both their faces just before V/M's expected over-generous winning marks came up. In the kiss 'n cry, Scott Moir did not smile too much, because he knows he f'ed up.

G&G's unhappy facial expressions back stage seem portentous of avenging angels. Maybe that should be the motivating theme for their programs next season.

Ohhhh, Team Montreal came so close to happily celebrating three ice dance teams on the Worlds podium. Instead they end up with increased tensions between their two top teams, and their beautifully improved American team are gonna need some kind of uplifting intervention after this roller coaster nightmare.

Helsinki seems so harmless, picturesque and pretty, which proves that looks are always deceiving.

I was happy to see a new Dance Hall thread this morning. Until I read the opening post which is mostly bashing of V/M and their fans. And unfortunately, you didn't stop there. Sigh.

I am happy that V/M won, albeit on the strength of their SD. Yes, Scott was disappointed in himself and I don't think any team quite enjoys a win that comes with a less than perfect skate. And of course the other competitors and their fans do not like it either. I get it. Just goes to show it is a 2 program race.

I am happy that P/C won the FD. They skated it absolutely beautifully. Just stunning. They really needed that. They needed to know how they would score against V/M with a clean skate. And now they know that with a good SD, they can beat V/M. Next season is going to be crazy.

Shibs, yeah! To come back and take bronze after a disappointing SD placement was great to see. They deserve some love.

H/D. I am gutted. But not all was lost here for them. They now know for sure that they CAN be right up there on the podium. The result of the SD is very encouraging and I hope that is what they take with them from this competition.

W/P finally had 2 good skates and were soooo close in score to the Shibs. Well done.

C/B - i have not looked at their scoresheet and I thought they skated well......what happened? They scored well under their season's best.

B/S - I thought they were overscored a bit. It appeared they botched their final step sequence. At least to my eye.

Well, it certainly was an intense event, lol. I am sad that the season is over, except for WTT of course.

 

[Miloune]

C/B - i have not looked at their scoresheet and I thought they skated well......what happened? They scored well under their season's best.

Evan gave us very messy twizzles.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Evan gave us very messy twizzles.

Oh yes! I forgot, lol. Merci Miloune

 

[firstflight]

Evan gave us very messy twizzles.

Yup, he botched them badly. He tried to recover but couldn't. Level 1 and GOE cost them 5-5.5 points. Add that back and they would have comfortably beaten the Shibutanis given their SD lead.

 

[NorthernDancers]

I was happy to see a new Dance Hall thread this morning. Until I read the opening post which is mostly bashing of V/M and their fans. And unfortunately, you didn't stop there. Sigh.

Well, it certainly was an intense event, lol. I am sad that the season is over, except for WTT of course.

Totally agree with that sentiment. I've just been staying away. Heaven forbid there might actually be some folks who love ice dance, know a little about the sport, and have some logical reasons why they like both V/M and P/C.

V/M: For those who think that V/M weren't marked appropriately, have a look at the score sheet. The stumble happened as they were coming out of the step sequence. They had already done enough turns and steps to achieve all the levels they were going to get. Based on how well they were skating, I'm guessing without the stumble they would have had a Lvl4. Instead, they have a Lvl3 with negative GOE's. Some judges may have felt that the step sequence was totally over and not applied a GOE adjustment for the stumble. Others did apply negative GOE's. They also were penalized a little on the PCS. Without the stumble, I'm sure that V/M would have scored over 120 points. I take exception to any suggestion that Scott behaved inappropriately this weekend. He wasn't upset at the judges. He was upset at himself for making a fluke error that he probably never makes. He's a competitive athlete who wants to skate his best every time. Great competitive athletes by nature are rarely satisfied and perfectionists. I've been watching all the whining and complaining about V/M coming back and "stealing" medals. I also have seen so many comments about how they aren't going to do well, they past their prime, and so on. I am so glad they came back. They are pushing every other team to do better, and providing a masterclass in ice dance. The V/M that returned this year are more mature, stronger, faster, more confident, better connected, and skating at a much higher artistic level. And they have joy. Ice dancers used to stick around until their mid-30's, since age and maturity and experience produce the best work. This year, with V/M who aren't even 30, we can see that is definitely still the case.

P/C: Their FD was a thing of beauty this week. The best they have skated it all season. It was over almost before it started. They have lovely flow and glide, and good speed. Guillaume is clearly the lead in this partnership, but Gabby has done a lot of work this year and it is obvious. They very rightly won the FD. Their SD is just average. Skating to different rhythms is a challenge for them, and they will have some work with the rhumba, since their connection is more ethereal than a romantic one. They have to work more on the difficulty and complexity in their lifts. I suspect it will be a bit of a change in technique for them, but it will be worth the effort. I think we all have to keep in mind that P/C are still very young. They have enormous potential to grow and develop over time.

Shibs: I really like this team, and have been a fan of theirs for a long time. They have such precision, unison and attention to detail. To be honest, though, I didn't like this version of themselves quite as much as last year. Coldplay showed a deeper level, some grit, to their skating, which wasn't there this year. We are back to light floating. It's nice, but I don't think it is all they can do. I hope they work with some other external dancers again so next year they continue to explore the grittier, more authentic side of their skating. IMHO, I think they should have finished 4th.

W/P: Once again, I feel this team "wuz robbed". They are perennially the most "wuz robbed" team in skating. They absolutely should have received the bronze. They certainly earned it. I know people like to point to how they haven't been at their best throughout the season, but skating needs to judge what is skated on that day. It's not a life-time achievement award, or a season achievement award. It's also not about who is the skating federation's favourites. This week, W/P skated 2 very solid programs for which they were hosed in GOE and PCS. I'm not sure why people are so surprised at their performance. Their move to Morozov was about reinventing, and sometimes you take a step or 2 back to take leaps forward. Throughout the season, we have watched them develop new speed and power, and now they are adding the quality they always had back in. They will be well-positioned for Olympic year. They have beautiful sweeping lines, and have a new fire and spark in their skating. I really love this team. They don't whine or complain. They just work to be the best version of themselves. The evidence of that was clear this weekend. Now we need the judges to set aside the politics and reward what is skated on the ice. To me, V/M, P/C and W/P have a quality of skating and way of movement that is just on a different level than every other team today, including the Shibs.

B/S: The idea that B/S deserve to be 5th is simply, for lack of better word, BS. I liked their first lift in their FD. They have speed. But my goodness they are a mess. Their posture is awful, their lines and attention to detail sorely lacking, and the angsty over the top uber drama is horrible. It's not authentic skating at all. They are sloppy. They may check a box on a level, but they should not be getting the GOE and PCS. They should be switching places with C/L, and finish below C/B and G/P. To me, this was the most blatant politicking. Ridiculous.

C/L: I feel a little bad for this team. They are very lovely, have great skills, and put in 2 very solid performances. They are always fun to watch. Watch the feet, the quality of the elements, and the overall musicality of what they do, and you can understand why they deserve to be above B/S. Like G/P, they really embody their characters. Where I think they are missing against V/M, P/C and W/P is in power and speed. They do not skate as big as the other top teams, who have really grown in this regard over the last few years. But I think they were a solid 4th or 5th here.

C/B: This is not my favourite team. I really am not a fan of skate by numbers. They generally are good at checking the level boxes, but not so great at bringing nuance, musicality and "the dance" to their programs. It always looks like a technical exercise when watching them skate. And the programs this year didn't change that impression 1 bit. Evan was clearly really uncomfortable with the material. It's not natural for him. But I don't think C/B are that well matched. I think there was a time in ice dance, right up to 2014, when "skate by numbers" was the fashion. It's not where ice dance is today, and I think C/B need a reinvention with coaches that can help them explore a different approach to their skating.

G/P: I've always loved the fun and originality they bring to ice dance. There is not another team quite like them, which is a really good thing. But they have always been lacking in the details and basic skating like matching deep edges, lines, and so on. Their SD was a really fun program, but was a little flat on the blade and missing some quality. It hurt them in the scores. But their FD is really the very best program they have ever skated. It was perfect for them. And I was so happy to see them leave the gimmicks and kitsch aside and concentrate on the skating. I feel they were underscored in the FD. To really take their skating to the next level, they need to get a new perspective and spend some time in boot camp, just like W/P have done a number of times, and V/M did since their comeback, to really improve those basic skating skills. If the very best like V/M have to do this, why is this not necessary for G/P? This is clear weakness for them, and the right "boot camp" would help them maybe really fix this. If they can improve these weaknesses, combine with their wonderful creativity, they could be huge threats for the podium. In a world of schmaltz, they would be a breath of fresh air.

H/D: Really gutted for this team. It's a good reminder to everyone how difficult what these skaters is doing. I think this is one of the most improved teams in ice dance right now. They have never looked so fit, so good, and skated so well. It was just catching an edge or a balance check, and then he was down. Ice is slippery. It happens. I hope they can put this behind them soon, and realize that they have improved a lot, and they have the goods to be counted in the upper echelon of ice dancers. But I'd really like them to try something else besides that syrup-like, mushy schmaltz. Let's see some sophistication in keeping with their growing ability and potential in the world rankings.

S/B: I simply do not understand how this team gets the scores they do. Their PCS should be in the 7's with maybe a few 8's for what they produced this week. The quality of skating is frankly awful. She skates a little "like a bull in a china shop". There is no grace or refinement in what she does. No dance throughout the body. No real sense of movement. You could drive a truck between them. There is no matching of lines or paying attention to technical details. Their posture is awful. They skate by numbers. They can check the levels, but they should not be getting GOE's and PCS like they do. I don't get how they finished as high as they did.

 

[ballettmaus]

V/M: For those who think that V/M weren't marked appropriately, have a look at the score sheet. The stumble happened as they were coming out of the step sequence. They had already done enough turns and steps to achieve all the levels they were going to get. Based on how well they were skating, I'm guessing without the stumble they would have had a Lvl4. Instead, they have a Lvl3 with negative GOE's. Some judges may have felt that the step sequence was totally over and not applied a GOE adjustment for the stumble. Others did apply negative GOE's.

This is where I see the problem and it has nothing to do with the skating itself but with the rules. Leaving it up to the judges to decide if the element was over seems to be a very obvious way for judges to manipulate scores - you don't want to give negative GOE, just decide the element was over. You want to give negative GOE, decide it wasn't.

I think there needs to be a rule change, either be very clear when an element is considered to be over or have the caller decide if it was part of the element or not. There will always be controversy in ice dance judging but I feel that this just invites controversy. And it's not the first time it has happened, so it will likely happen again, so I think they need to ensure that the judges know whether the mistake is supposed to be considered part of the element or not.

 

[Dolore]

I always enjoyed reading the Dance Hall thread because people in here were mostly civil and were interested in real discussions but I guess the friendly mood is gone now when trolls without actual knowledge of ice dance poison the mood from the get go. It's a shame, really.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

A lot of people have knowledge of ice dance and there is also room for opinions for that are different based on that knowledge. I mean it's also kind of inflammatory to say "I'm the only one that really understands ice dance"

 

[jiejie]

.... portentous of avenging angels.

This is just too delicious of a phrase not to be used as a thread title at some point--maybe for the upcoming season.

 

[morqet]

This is where I see the problem and it has nothing to do with the skating itself but with the rules. Leaving it up to the judges to decide if the element was over seems to be a very obvious way for judges to manipulate scores - you don't want to give negative GOE, just decide the element was over. You want to give negative GOE, decide it wasn't.

I think there needs to be a rule change, either be very clear when an element is considered to be over or have the caller decide if it was part of the element or not. There will always be controversy in ice dance judging but I feel that this just invites controversy. And it's not the first time it has happened, so it will likely happen again, so I think they need to ensure that the judges know whether the mistake is supposed to be considered part of the element or not.

It's a situation which has potential to get even more complicated now that transitions in & out of lifts and spins are counting towards the level. On a lift, if someone stumbles on the transition after, you could argue that it shouldn't affect GOE because the lift is "over" once the lifted partner has their feet back on the ice. But at the same time, going into a difficult position or doing "significant transitional movements" like complex steps straight after the lift is part of the way a team can get a level 4. So say they did the lift perfectly, went straight into double 3s in hold, but one of them stumbled - you could apply high +GOE, or 0 or -1, and each choice could be justified. With steps I feel its a little easier, because you either have to complete a circle or go end to end for a straight line or serpentine sequence, and it's pretty easy to see when that requirement has been met.

 

[princeton123]

What the hell is the tone of the opening post tbh.

 

[NorthernDancers]

A lot of people have knowledge of ice dance and there is also room for opinions for that are different based on that knowledge. I mean it's also kind of inflammatory to say "I'm the only one that really understands ice dance"

Of course a lot of people have knowledge of ice dance, and of course there is lots of room for diverse opinions. I'm certainly not saying that I'm the only one that really understands ice dance.

What I resent is the way this thread was started and developed - this idea that somehow if one is a fan of V/M, they must be a crazy uber who is still stuck in 2014 mentalities. I don't appreciate the constant digs at Scott and his so called "attitude", or even this narrative that P/C and V/M aren't as friendly as they seem. This is not Canton. It's a totally different rink. Both V/M and P/C have clearly articulated the value of the other team. It's possible to be hungry for winning medals, and P/C had a good taste of what it feels like to be World Champions, but P/C don't appear to be entitled people to me. A true athlete knows what they are doing well, and what they need to work on next. There is no value whatsoever in ever going down the road of "I should have won that". Just ask W/P about that. When a thread starts to degenerate into "they only won because of reputation" or rehashing history, I'm not so interested in participating.

There is nothing wrong with having favourites and liking different styles of skating, or saying one is sad or happy if their favourites lose or win. What is bothersome is when the conversation becomes "my favourites didn't win, so that means there was something wrong with the judges and callers, the other team doesn't have to work at all for the medals and should just be handed the next ones, the other team won by reputation, the other team have bad attitudes," etc. It is possible to not be happy that one's favourites didn't win, and still respect the skills and abilities of the winners.

There are definite times when there is questionable calling and judging, but we should be able to point to the reasons why an element didn't deserve it's GOE or PCS. To just make blanket statements that "judging was rigged" because one doesn't like the results seems pretty pointless. I'd love to see a good rationalization about why V/M didn't deserve the marks they received.

 

[zilam98]

What the hell is the tone of the opening post tbh.

because @aftershocks felt entitled that since they opened the new thread--which ANYONE can do anyway--that they can title it and open it to however they feel like it, even though it's supposedly for a neutral thread discussion. and then saying that the ones complaining about the derisive and divisive title are the "sensitive" fans. yep, the trolling begins

 

[barbarafan]

Of course a lot of people have knowledge of ice dance, and of course there is lots of room for diverse opinions. I'm certainly not saying that I'm the only one that really understands ice dance.

What I resent is the way this thread was started and developed - this idea that somehow if one is a fan of V/M, they must be a crazy uber who is still stuck in 2014 mentalities. I don't appreciate the constant digs at Scott and his so called "attitude", or even this narrative that P/C and V/M aren't as friendly as they seem. This is not Canton. It's a totally different rink. Both V/M and P/C have clearly articulated the value of the other team. It's possible to be hungry for winning medals, and P/C had a good taste of what it feels like to be World Champions, but P/C don't appear to be entitled people to me. A true athlete knows what they are doing well, and what they need to work on next. There is no value whatsoever in ever going down the road of "I should have won that". Just ask W/P about that. When a thread starts to degenerate into "they only won because of reputation" or rehashing history, I'm not so interested in participating.

There is nothing wrong with having favourites and liking different styles of skating, or saying one is sad or happy if their favourites lose or win. What is bothersome is when the conversation becomes "my favourites didn't win, so that means there was something wrong with the judges and callers, the other team doesn't have to work at all for the medals and should just be handed the next ones, the other team won by reputation, the other team have bad attitudes," etc. It is possible to not be happy that one's favourites didn't win, and still respect the skills and abilities of the winners.

There are definite times when there is questionable calling and judging, but we should be able to point to the reasons why an element didn't deserve it's GOE or PCS. To just make blanket statements that "judging was rigged" because one doesn't like the results seems pretty pointless. I'd love to see a good rationalization about why V/M didn't deserve the marks they received.

ITA- although there is one mark I really hate that T&S got for skating skills by american judge Sharon Rogers who has always had it in for T&S...8.75 folks. how is that for skill in judging. If that mark were accurate I would say everyone else s/b below 8.00

 

[ballettmaus]

It's a situation which has potential to get even more complicated now that transitions in & out of lifts and spins are counting towards the level. On a lift, if someone stumbles on the transition after, you could argue that it shouldn't affect GOE because the lift is "over" once the lifted partner has their feet back on the ice. But at the same time, going into a difficult position or doing "significant transitional movements" like complex steps straight after the lift is part of the way a team can get a level 4. So say they did the lift perfectly, went straight into double 3s in hold, but one of them stumbled - you could apply high +GOE, or 0 or -1, and each choice could be justified. With steps I feel its a little easier, because you either have to complete a circle or go end to end for a straight line or serpentine sequence, and it's pretty easy to see when that requirement has been met.

Well, it may not be as easy since I read that Moir stumbled on the last turn of the step sequence. If it was the last turn, I'd say it's clearly part of the sequence but the judges obviously disagreed on that one.

But it seems that what you mention is all the more reason to have an authority which says whether the element was over or not. I think it could only be beneficial to everyone involved as it would erase any doubt about the need or not for negative GOE.