The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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starrynight

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I think if H and D had of stuck with Shallow and maybe added a complimentary piece of music it would have worked beautifully.
Yes, this was the the signature Marie France music a few seasons ago. She did probably dozens of programs like this. Pick a piece of vocal music and then a complimentary piece of instrumental music. Start with the instrumental and then introduce the vocals towards the end for the crescendo.

Maybe using all the music pieces was an attempt to do something different?
 

Colonel Green

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The higher warmup groups at Worlds, based on current standings:

Sinitsina/Katsalapov
Hubbell/Donohue
Papadakis/Cizeron
Chock/Bates
Guignard/Fabbri

Gilles/Poirier
Stepanova/Bukin
Hawayek/Baker
Fear/Gibson
Wang/Liu

Kaliszek/Spodyriev
Smart/Diaz
Zahorski/Guerreiro
Lajoie/Lagha
[third Canadian team; both Soucisse/Firus and Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen would be here]

On reflection, if there was one tactical benefit that Spain could have derived from picking Hurtado/Khaliavin for Worlds, it would be that they would have been in the penultimate warmup group rather than the antepenultimate (bumping the Chinese down).
 
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Icandance

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I really like g/p and their lifts are very unique and I’m sure they are super challenging but sometimes I just don’t find their lifts as pleasing to the eye.
Really enjoyed GP RD. Thought it was quick and sharp. Not so much their FD, which was pretty but unexciting.
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
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3,722
The fall was not on an element so their tes couldn’t go down. They got the 1 point deduction and their PCS was slightly lower than at GPF. They were deducted.
Quick reminder: at 2017 worlds Scott Moir fell in the FD, also not on an element and they still won. People didn’t complain then.
I did. :drama: I don't think falls are deducted nearly enough and would be fine with Gilles/Poirier winning because of that.

Hilarious the second that C&B got to the one part of their FD that had intricate, behind the back holds, they wipe out.

But who cares, here's a bunch of technical points for standing on two feet and gyrating really well during something called "The choreographic character" sequence?

Oh yeah, this is good for the sport. This legitimizes it. :slinkaway
Yes, this is another problem with the judging system. The GOE for choreographic elements isn't factored to the value of the element so the choreographic elements are disproportionately valued in comparison to their difficulty. In the singles events, GOE is factored to element value and ice dance should do that, too.

I've been thinking about the H/D programs and trying to put my finger on what isn't working, at least for me. I'm wondering if they just don't do well when their programs involve "playing characters." Romeo and Juliet didn't do it for me. Marilyn and Joe don't do it for me, and the Star is Born characters don't do it for me. Maybe that is missing the point, and it's really more of an issue of music cuts (aka "Daddy") or choreo or some combination. But maybe playing characters doesn't work as well for them as just being themselves interpretting music via the dance (Beth Hart, Hallelujiah, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, etc)

I'm curious if anyone else has thought this...
I think you may be on to something.

I think if H and D had of stuck with Shallow and maybe added a complimentary piece of music it would have worked beautifully.

I don’t think they capitalized on the tragic story of the film and should have. If they created a mood like say Love Story and the dance was about her rise and his fall without the hoedown music break (emphasis added) I really don’t think we’d be having these conversations. They have fabulous chemistry and could play that tragic romance
Frankly, I think some of the "problem" with the FD is that people (judges and skating fans) are prejudiced against country music.

Finally C/B v H/D, C/B have superior lifts, H/D have superior bladework. For these two FD programs, H/D generally have superior skating (from the blades down), but C/B have superior dancing (body movement). It seems the judging this season has tilted toward superior dancing.
 

taz'smum

as @Jesche says - мама knows best
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The higher warmup groups at Worlds, based on current standings:

Sinitsina/Katsalapov
Hubbell/Donohue
Papadakis/Cizeron
Chock/Bates
Guignard/Fabbri

Gilles/Poirier
Stepanova/Bukin
Hawayek/Baker
Fear/Gibson
Wang/Liu

Kaliszek/Spodyriev
Smart/Diaz
Zahorski/Guerreiro
Lajoie/Lagha
[third Canadian team; both Soucisse/Firus and Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen would be here]

On reflection, if there was one tactical benefit that Spain could have derived from picking Hurtado/Khaliavin for Worlds, it would be that they would have been in the penultimate warmup group rather than the antepenultimate (bumping the Chinese down).
S/F have moved up into 15th after 4CC so would be above Lajoie/Lagha (21st)
If the French L/L (17th) succeed in their quest to be sent to worlds, then they will push Lajoie/Lagha out of the 3rd to last warm-up group.
However, with the resignation of Didier Gailhaguet, and the Ministry taking control of the French federation,it might be decided that the sporting principle should prevail, and G/T should be sent to worlds as they were 2nd in Nationals.
 

Wyliefan

Trying to appease the skategods
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Oh, I thought the French had already named their Worlds team. Too many countries to keep up with. I'm starting to lose track. :lol:
 

aftershocks

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17,314
I also find this year's RDs to be disappointing on the whole. That's why I asked in the competition thread last night what next year's theme/pattern is, because honestly, I am already looking forward to some new RDs.

Broadway/musical/operetta sounded like it had such interesting possibilities, but I agree that too many of the dances are just very traditional quickstep/foxtrot-type things. And I think teams have to be really good to pull that style off well. Chock/Bates do quite a good job with it in their RD.

I think the programs that I'm still really enjoying out of this year's RDs would include Hawayek/Baker's Saturday Night Fever, Papadakis/Cizeron's Fame, Lajoie/Lagha's West Side Story, Hurtado/Khaliavin's Hello Dolly, Smart/Diaz's Grease, Zagorski/Guerriero's Greatest Showman, Soucisse/Firus’s Jersey Boys, and actually I liked Green/Parsons' Cry-Baby more at U.S. Natls than I had before (despite the lyrics). Carreira/Ponomarenko's RD is also kind of fun, although I wish they hadn't changed Christina's dress. I guess I'm mostly drawn to the more upbeat programs.
A nice assessment. I would also include Fear/Gibson's RD. There weren't a lot of creative, outside-the-box thinking for RDs this season. If teams had only done a bit more research and reflecting, but I guess timing and putting choreo together is key, so a lot of times safer choices are made. I would like to see an ice dance team do something to Slaughter on Tenth Avenue. It might work well for Hubbell/Donahue. Sometimes a choice seems good but may not translate well to the ice. It's hard to predict how and why some programs click and come together quickly and easily, while others don't.

H/D definitely need to search and find better program inspiration for next season. They have rocked the heck out of what they chose for this season, and their superior technical talent and command over the ice is quite obvious. But the judges weren't going for it on an aesthetic level, concept-wise, perhaps largely because the perception has been low for their programs. They made a lot of improvements and they've never given up, which is a good sign. Their RD works very well now and it should score high. Their frustration regarding the fp marks at 4CCs was palpable.
 

casken

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G&F still qualifying for the final RD group is the only break they gotten this season and probably their only hope for anything higher than a 7th place finish.
 

Regretla

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There is always the change of some of the teams literally killing it in the penultimate group and pushing everyone behind like with S/K last season.I would even add S/D and Z/G as potential top ten even if they skate earlier.
 

taz'smum

as @Jesche says - мама knows best
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2,348
There is always the change of some of the teams literally killing it in the penultimate group and pushing everyone behind like with S/K last season.I would even add S/D and Z/G as potential top ten even if they skate earlier.
Yep, Z/G skated in the 3rd to last group in 2018 worlds and finished in the top 10. ;)
 

PRlady

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34,994
G&F still qualifying for the final RD group is the only break they gotten this season and probably their only hope for anything higher than a 7th place finish.
Which makes me almost as mad as Babs. Technically they’re better than both S/B and G/P and I love their FD this season.

ETA: I hated this team when they had their Holocaust FD and loved both LaLa Land and astronauts. Goes to show you that program choice is almost as important as skills, at least for the vast majority who can’t tell if someone hit her keypoints.
 
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heartyxo

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I think G/F could beat one or two of the top six in the RD, most likely S/B and/or G/P, but then probably fall back to 7th after the FD.
 

VGThuy

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I’m just glad that G/F are fulfilling the potential I saw at the 2014 Olympics where I sort of thought they were already showing promise that they could be technically better than Cappellini/Lanotte but what do I know as C/L won Worlds that year. :shuffle:
 

yurokis40

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Won’t help g&f since Italy do
I think G/F could beat one or two of the top six in the RD, most likely S/B and/or G/P, but then probably fall back to 7th after the FD.
I think g&p skating at home and as Canada number one are safe for final group for fd if they skate the rd well Italy has no judge at worlds
 

dancelion21

Active Member
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I don't think G/P will be in the final group since they have been consistently weaker in the rhythm dance. Barring disaster, I think it's safe to say that P/C, S/K, and C/B are in the final group of the free dance. I would be more hesitant to put C/B there, but the politics are on their side, and they have gotten more consistent in the Finnstep levels since their Grand Prixs, where the level 1s were very alarming. I would bet that H/D are in the last group as well since the judges have been more rewarding of their rhythm dance, even though the music sucks, and they are really able to show their superior skating skills and speed in the rhythm dance in comparison to the free dance.

Thus, the final spot comes down to S/B, G/P, and G/F. Of these teams, I think G/F have the best shot at making the final group because they are such good technical skaters. They don't have the politics on their side, but they have the base value. Also, G/F are in the final group of the rhythm dance while G/P are not. G/P have the home-field advantage, but they have not been as technically proficient as most of the other teams. I'm not sure if S/B can factor into this equation, since they aren't skating in the last rhythm dance group, haven't been as technically proficient, and don't have as strong of a political pull sine they're not the top Russian team.

If G/P can't make it into the last free dance group, then they can probably forget about a surprise worlds bronze, so it will be an interesting test to see if they can fix their Finnstep levels and if Skate Canada is going to politick hard enough for it to happen.
 

yurokis40

Well-Known Member
Messages
569
Won’t help g&f since Italy do

I think g&p skating at home and as Canada number one are safe for final group for fd if they skate the rd well Italy has no judge at worlds
G
I don't think G/P will be in the final group since they have been consistently weaker in the rhythm dance. Barring disaster, I think it's safe to say that P/C, S/K, and C/B are in the final group of the free dance. I would be more hesitant to put C/B there, but the politics are on their side, and they have gotten more consistent in the Finnstep levels since their Grand Prixs, where the level 1s were very alarming. I would bet that H/D are in the last group as well since the judges have been more rewarding of their rhythm dance, even though the music sucks, and they are really able to show their superior skating skills and speed in the rhythm dance in comparison to the free dance.

Thus, the final spot comes down to S/B, G/P, and G/F. Of these teams, I think G/F have the best shot at making the final group because they are such good technical skaters. They don't have the politics on their side, but they have the base value. Also, G/F are in the final group of the rhythm dance while G/P are not. G/P have the home-field advantage, but they have not been as technically proficient as most of the other teams. I'm not sure if S/B can factor into this equation, since they aren't skating in the last rhythm dance group, haven't been as technically proficient, and don't have as strong of a political pull sine they're not the top Russian team.

If G/P can't make it into the last free dance group, then they can probably forget about a surprise worlds bronze, so it will be an interesting test to see if they can fix their Finnstep levels and if Skate Canada is going to politick hard enough for it to happen
I don't think G/P will be in the final group since they have been consistently weaker in the rhythm dance. Barring disaster, I think it's safe to say that P/C, S/K, and C/B are in the final group of the free dance. I would be more hesitant to put C/B there, but the politics are on their side, and they have gotten more consistent in the Finnstep levels since their Grand Prixs, where the level 1s were very alarming. I would bet that H/D are in the last group as well since the judges have been more rewarding of their rhythm dance, even though the music sucks, and they are really able to show their superior skating skills and speed in the rhythm dance in comparison to the free dance.

Thus, the final spot comes down to S/B, G/P, and G/F. Of these teams, I think G/F have the best shot at making the final group because they are such good technical skaters. They don't have the politics on their side, but they have the base value. Also, G/F are in the final group of the rhythm dance while G/P are not. G/P have the home-field advantage, but they have not been as technically proficient as most of the other teams. I'm not sure if S/B can factor into this equation, since they aren't skating in the last rhythm dance group, haven't been as technically proficient, and don't have as strong of a political pull sine they're not the top Russian team.

If G/P can't make it into the last free dance group, then they can probably forget about a surprise worlds bronze, so it will be an interesting test to see if they can fix their Finnstep levels and if Skate Canada is going to politick hard enough for it to happen.
g&f have never beaten g&p at worlds and hubbell and Donahue are in danger by having the lowest fd score of the top teams at the recent events the tech panel will make a huge difference if a Canadian is on it with worlds in Canada there is good chance there is one
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
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I've been thinking about the H/D programs and trying to put my finger on what isn't working, at least for me. I'm wondering if they just don't do well when their programs involve "playing characters." Romeo and Juliet didn't do it for me. Marilyn and Joe don't do it for me, and the Star is Born characters don't do it for me. Maybe that is missing the point, and it's really more of an issue of music cuts (aka "Daddy") or choreo or some combination. But maybe playing characters doesn't work as well for them as just being themselves interpretting music via the dance (Beth Hart, Hallelujiah, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, etc)

I'm curious if anyone else has thought this...
I've said similar before. I didn't hate Romeo and Juliet like many seem to have because I understood they were experimenting and trying to play characters and tell a story so I thought it was the right time to do that for their development. But I also recognize they weren't able to pull it off and I think that is really obvious in their programs this year. I give them A for effort but every time I watch them my mind goes back to the Master Thespian* skits on SNL where I expect them to raise their arm at the end and shout "ACTING". I see their chemistry in programs like their Beth Hart FD but I do not see it at all in their current style of programs.


* for those who are not familiar with SNL Thespian skits I submit the following for your viewing pleasure:
 

VGThuy

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32,238
I wouldn’t be too married to certain predictions. Remember when G/P scored low at 2016 4CC SD and then made the top five at Worlds there edging out H/D and C/L for the final group. Of course they changed the song and gave the program new life but their levels were better than it had been all season.
 

Spun Silver

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11,595
I've been thinking about the H/D programs and trying to put my finger on what isn't working, at least for me. I'm wondering if they just don't do well when their programs involve "playing characters." Romeo and Juliet didn't do it for me. Marilyn and Joe don't do it for me, and the Star is Born characters don't do it for me. Maybe that is missing the point, and it's really more of an issue of music cuts (aka "Daddy") or choreo or some combination. But maybe playing characters doesn't work as well for them as just being themselves interpretting music via the dance (Beth Hart, Hallelujiah, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, etc)

I'm curious if anyone else has thought this...
I agree too. They don't seem particularly gifted at transforming themselves into different characters. I think there was a concern that they were getting into a rut with the sexy-romantic programs that people loved so much, but it might pay to stick to what they're really good at, at least with the FD. The SD calls for more versatility and it was a bit odd that this year their two programs almost echoed each other, not in the music but in the type of characters they played. I think it's better when there's a good contrast between the SD and the FD. I'm thinking of the Shibs where they did their trilogy of similar-looking FDs for three years (two to Coldplay, one to Arvo Pärt et al.) but in that time their SDs could not have been more different, and each one perfect in its way (Coppelia, hip hop That's Life, and Mambo etc. for their Olympic year).
 

Doggygirl

Going through FS withdrawal after GPF
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10,260
I agree too. They don't seem particularly gifted at transforming themselves into different characters. I think there was a concern that they were getting into a rut with the sexy-romantic programs that people loved so much, but it might pay to stick to what they're really good at, at least with the FD. The SD calls for more versatility and it was a bit odd that this year their two programs almost echoed each other, not in the music but in the type of characters they played. I think it's better when there's a good contrast between the SD and the FD. I'm thinking of the Shibs where they did their trilogy of similar-looking FDs for three years (two to Coldplay, one to Arvo Pärt et al.) but in that time their SDs could not have been more different, and each one perfect in its way (Coppelia, hip hop That's Life, and Mambo etc. for their Olympic year).
That is a very good point about the similarity in theme between the SD and FD.
 

Doggygirl

Going through FS withdrawal after GPF
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10,260
I've said similar before. I didn't hate Romeo and Juliet like many seem to have because I understood they were experimenting and trying to play characters and tell a story so I thought it was the right time to do that for their development. But I also recognize they weren't able to pull it off and I think that is really obvious in their programs this year. I give them A for effort but every time I watch them my mind goes back to the Master Thespian* skits on SNL where I expect them to raise their arm at the end and shout "ACTING". I see their chemistry in programs like their Beth Hart FD but I do not see it at all in their current style of programs.


* for those who are not familiar with SNL Thespian skits I submit the following for your viewing pleasure:
Those were the days for SNL! :lol:

I had been thinking that the H/D character play seems "overdone" (esp. Madison) and I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have absolutely loved so many of H/D programs and love their skating skills and power over the ice. I hope they figure out what is not working in the programs and come out with guns blazing next season!
 

deegee

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221
program choice seems to only take teams but so far. g/f have had some great programs that really suit them and their incredible skills and they still get hosed year after year.

and it really bums me out that a team with the talent of h/d can get dumped so badly over program choice. while i dont like the music of their current programs, the construction and choreography of their fd especially stands out in the current field with so many couples relying on open holds, less intricate transitions, and a lot of stopping and starting/moving in one place.
 

Dobre

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7,551
The momentum can't be stopped for C/B even with a fall, albeit not on an element, so it wasn't very costly. They can't afford a similar mistake at Worlds, but I expect this to be a fluke
Historically, Chock & Bates's mistakes most often come when they are the ones expected to win. I would say that winning U.S. Nationals put that pressure squarely back on their shoulders prior to 4CCs.

Pretty much all the top 4 ranked teams heading into the event dealt with one of their usual demons under pressure:

G&P got their typical level 2 on the pattern and wobbled through a set of twizzles.
C&B splatted while the door was wide open for a win.
Zach missed the twizzles.
And Hawayek & Baker had another random splat under major-international pressure (this would be the third season in a row if you count the choreo slide last season--not that I, as a fan of one of their uber-matrix domestic competitors, would be counting or anything;)).

Here's hoping everyone got these things out of their system prior to Worlds.

(I interrupt this negative-Nancy account of what happens to high-ranked teams under pressure to say :cheer2: to Wang & Liu for a great competition at an opportune moment!)

I do think Guignard & Fabbri have a shot at the final flight at Worlds. They brought in the level 4 pattern at Euros, and if you can bring in level 4 there with that tech panel, you have a shot at it at Worlds. G&F cannot compete with the speed of the top teams. This, combined with G&P skating at home, sets G&F at a disadvantage generally.

I think the Montreal crowd is going to stand up for Gilles & Poirier after they skate anything, but especially after the FD where it will be treated like a hallowed & revered event. (This is an educated theory as I was at SC this year, and also I remember how loud the crowd was for the Shibs skating at the Boston Worlds). I also expect that G&P will get a level 2 on the pattern unless the caller or AT is Canadian or Higashino (neither of which seems likely as W&P were top 5 last year and Higashino called last season), though as @VGThuy says, G&P do sometimes pull that level 2 up at the very last event of the year.

Yes, this is another problem with the judging system. The GOE for choreographic elements isn't factored to the value of the element so the choreographic elements are disproportionately valued in comparison to their difficulty. In the singles events, GOE is factored to element value and ice dance should do that, too.
I wish they would get on with fixing this. And also, since the criteria for +4 and +5 GOE is supposed to be perfect execution, I also feel that a flag needs to go up when the levels aren't there for the steps & pattern the same way judges' GOE goes down once they have been made aware that a UR has been called . . . or a fall on your choreo slide. Overall, I'm just annoyed with how out of balance the scoring is. (Yes, this change would make scores drop, and I realize that doesn't play well in sports but neither do competitions won with splats--and I'm not complaining about the judging at 4CCs just saying that an unbalanced system sets us up for debacles).

and it really bums me out that a team with the talent of h/d can get dumped so badly over program choice.
I think Hubbell & Donohue's demise is much exaggerated. They blew their cushion last season, when the combination of poor program selection, poor levels, Zach's inability to perform a rocker, and end-of-season pressure-related execution mistakes cost them. This year, they started on more even ground with the top players, started out late, and lost their clear #1 ranking at home. C'est la vie. It's tough to lead.

But they are super strong skaters. They can cover the ice better than any team out there other than P&C. And that is apparent when they get on the ice. The complaining opposition-related yammering about body type and how they are too heavy/horselike/blah-blah-blah is codswallup and all arrows point to the likelihood that H/D can eat said complainants' favorites for breakfast if they get their ___ together. I honestly think they could have done it at U.S. Nationals. But Zach went all yardsale in the RD there, which is where they needed to establish a lead; and, like I said, it's tough to lead.

In conclusion:

We are heading into a Worlds with Nikita and Chock & Bates expected to contend and with Zach and Gilles & Poirier among those hoping to play spoiler. Now we look at that list . . . and I feel the odds of something not going according to plan are not slim. To give them all credit, though, they've all gotten here via a lot of work and perseverance, last year's Worlds went pretty well, and probably they will not all muck up in the same event.
 
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Icandance

New Member
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program choice seems to only take teams but so far. g/f have had some great programs that really suit them and their incredible skills and they still get hosed year after year.

and it really bums me out that a team with the talent of h/d can get dumped so badly over program choice. while i dont like the music of their current programs, the construction and choreography of their fd especially stands out in the current field with so many couples relying on open holds, less intricate transitions, and a lot of stopping and starting/moving in one place.
Of course technical content and good application count in scoring, but the program also has to reach the audience, which includes the judges, which is why choreography and music choice is so important.
 

Ka3sha

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6,759
Now we look at that list . . . and I feel the odds of something not going according to plan are not slim. To give them all credit, though, they've all gotten here via a lot of work and perseverance, last year's Worlds went pretty well, and probably they will not all muck up in the same event.
:gallopin1 :gallopin1 :gallopin1
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
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program choice seems to only take teams but so far. g/f have had some great programs that really suit them and their incredible skills and they still get hosed year after year.

and it really bums me out that a team with the talent of h/d can get dumped so badly over program choice. while i dont like the music of their current programs, the construction and choreography of their fd especially stands out in the current field with so many couples relying on open holds, less intricate transitions, and a lot of stopping and starting/moving in one place.
I watched their FD on the NBCSN replay to analyze it and see how it has more difficult transitions and holds than the other top FDs, and I didn't see it. If you could point out specific points in the program where it is more complex that would be helpful.
 

wickedwitch

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I think something's going fundamentally wrong for H/D at the program creation stage, but if they fix it, they can turn their careers around.

I keep going back to their tango RD. It should have been right in their wheelhouse, and yet, it was a generic, forgettable program. (Although, it's still better than last year's FD or either of this year's programs.) And I can't put my finger on what went wrong there.

I really hope they use outside choreographers next season. I think that's their best shot.
 
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