The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

[Karen-W]

We will see what happens in Canada, G&P usually get scored much higher in Canada than anywhere in the world you know that crowd will eat up both sides now and joni that could influence some judges in thight scoring.

Take comfort in their Skate Canada win earlier this season. They are not going to beat P/C, S/K and C/B at Worlds. They didn't even beat C/B at 4CCs when C/B had a non-element fall and didn't come close to their season's best score while G/P were within .2 of hitting their SB here.

 

[yeslek]

I really like g/p and their lifts are very unique and I’m sure they are super challenging but sometimes I just don’t find their lifts as pleasing to the eye.

 

[heartyxo]

I really like g/p and their lifts are very unique and I’m sure they are super challenging but sometimes I just don’t find their lifts as pleasing to the eye.

agree. I appreciate the creativity of the crouch straight line lift, but I find it ugly honestly.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I LOVE Yankee Polka and think it's a really good pattern to counter balance the lyrical style that's currently so ubiquitous in ice dance. Really short, precise steps; bounciness; rapid crossed behind steps and turns...just technically very difficult and we haven't seen it in forever!

 

[ostile17]

When's the last time we got the Yankee Polka? Was it 2012-13 or am I forgetting something?

 

[heartyxo]

When's the last time we got the Yankee Polka? Was it 2012-13 or am I forgetting something?

yes it was. so very few of the current teams have competed it.

 

[ostile17]

yes it was. so very few of the current teams have competed it.

Thanks!

Muramoto /Takahashi will start working on their programs in March. I hope by then the ISU will announce the change if indeed there is one!

 

[The Observer]

Take comfort in their Skate Canada win earlier this season. They are not going to beat P/C, S/K and C/B at Worlds. They didn't even beat C/B at 4CCs when C/B had a non-element fall and didn't come close to their season's best score while G/P were within .2 of hitting their SB here.

That's possibly true, although the good news for G/P is that they beat H/D at 4 Conts, and have a shot at moving ahead of them at Worlds now.

 

[VGThuy]

I feel like Gilles/Poirier and Hubbell/Donohue always find themselves neck-in-neck some how when H/D find themselves lower than medal contention. There was that two year period where H/D were enjoying being way ahead, but maybe G/P will keep inching up and become more consistent rivals to them if H/D keeps this up. Of course there's always Worlds.

OT, but you guy see the USFS video of Chock/Bates's Nationals FD nearly has 800K views? That's a lot for American ice dance videos. It took them a while, but they're finally gaining a fandom. Say what you will about the construction and Madison being carried by Evan and being mostly on two feet or that they don't have the most complicated holds, it seems this dance is what is capturing people's attention these days. Like they say, styles come and go. It'd be interesting to see if they can keep up the momentum to 2022.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

The momentum can't be stopped for C/B even with a fall, albeit not on an element, so it wasn't very costly. They can't afford a similar mistake at Worlds, but I expect this to be a fluke, they've been incredibly consistent with the free dance all season, and they will really be relying on the free dance to score big if they want to pass S/K or even P/C if P/C skate sloppily.
C/B have gotten much better with the levels since earlier in the season. It looks like they've left their days of level 1 Finnsteps behind them, which is good since the rhythm dance had been holding them back all season, but it's become more consistent and strong.
Barring disaster, the worlds podium will be P/C, S/K, and C/B, in some order, but I think G/P are the dark horses for the podium. They are at a home worlds and they beat H/D in two competitions this season. They have some momentum. Even so, it doesn't bode well that they couldn't outscore C/B when they had a fall.
H/D need to rethink a lot. They might not even be in the top 5 if they make the same mistakes as they did at 4CC. The path to a worlds medal doesn't seem feasible at this point. They scored lower than C/B in PCS in both the rhythm and the free dance, although they were ahead of G/P in PCS, which is a bit of a good sign even though G/P beat them.

 

[aka_gerbil]

OT, but you guy see the USFS video of Chock/Bates's Nationals FD nearly has 800K views? That's a lot for American ice dance videos. It took them a while, but they're finally gaining a fandom. Say what you will about the construction and Madison being carried by Evan and being mostly on two feet or that they don't have the most complicated holds, it seems this dance is what is capturing people's attention these days. Like they say, styles come and go. It'd be interesting to see if they can keep up the momentum to 2022.

Just to state the obvious... how many fans a team or any skater does or does not have should not factor at all into how the judges place them. I know the judges are likely taking it into account in reality, and it really irks me because all that should matter is what happens on the ice.

Back in the fall, there was a Russian article in which Maxim Kovtun was giving opinions on the Russian skaters and teams. This bit came when they were discussing Tarasova/Morozov, but this is what he had to say:

Tarasova and Morozov - a couple who also need to be given time?
- Here again, the role of moving, lapping to the new coach, the method of work plays a role. To complex elements, they added a style that had not been before. And is it important. Judges value you even outside the ice. They look at your social networks, how you look, communicate and so on. If you are a significant figure, then this plays a role.

The implication there is pretty horrifying to me in terms of judging these days. How many fans someone has, how they look off ice, social media presence, etc should not be under consideration when judging.

That said, as a long time h/d fan, I do think they need to take a good look at things right now. I think every skater at some point ends up with a season where they have a wrong program or programs to best show off their skills. H/D are on their second straight season of questionable programs. Their coaching and choreography team share the blame for this. If h/d are having trouble coming up with their own ideas and their coaches and choreographers can’t steer them any better, then it’s time for a fresh set of eyes and ideas.

 

[Satellizer]

Just to state the obvious... how many fans a team or any skater does or does not have should not factor at all into how the judges place them. I know the judges are likely taking it into account in reality, and it really irks me because all that should matter is what happens on the ice.

Back in the fall, there was a Russian article in which Maxim Kovtun was giving opinions on the Russian skaters and teams. This bit came when they were discussing Tarasova/Morozov, but this is what he had to say:



The implication there is pretty horrifying to me in terms of judging these days. How many fans someone has, how they look off ice, social media presence, etc should not be under consideration when judging.

That said, as a long time h/d fan, I do think they need to take a good look at things right now. I think every skater at some point ends up with a season where they have a wrong program or programs to best show off their skills. H/D are on their second straight season of questionable programs. Their coaching and choreography team share the blame for this. If h/d are having trouble coming up with their own ideas and their coaches and choreographers can’t steer them any better, then it’s time for a fresh set of eyes and ideas.

If they were to switch coaches, what would be their options?

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, but I think that's also limited. It has to be backed up by something, and here Chock/Bates have a vehicle that not only entertains people but properly shows off their strengths while hiding their weaknesses. Had H/D not messed up at 4CC, it would have been interesting to see how the FD would have shaken up. I think it would have been close and I think H/D may have pulled off a win if they skated lights out even with THAT program. After a whole season, critics of C/B are coming out and even though I've celebrated that FD, I'm seeing what they're saying regarding not having the same complexity or power of H/D. What they do have is beautiful body shapes, clean dancing, nuanced choreo to the music, and presence on the ice. Also, superior lifts and a program that really works.

 

[mollymgr]

The ice dance competition is bound to be interesting at Worlds. The last few competition results since GPF have been quite with overall placements so it will be interesting to see how slippery it gets.

 

[heartyxo]

I think Madi falling was a fluke and probably linked to fatigue after nationals. It likely won't happen at worlds.
Their FD is my favorite of the season. Whether you like it or not, that FD perfectly does what an FD is supposed to do and they're gonna keep doing it.

 

[mjb52]

H/D's FD music selection seems so perfect for them, I'm not sure what went wrong here. I haven't seen the most recent competitions though, just their initial outing of these programs. I did have issues with how the music was cut together I remember.

 

[VGThuy]

I think Madi falling was a fluke and probably linked to fatigue after nationals. It likely won't happen at worlds.
Their FD is my favorite of the season. Whether you like it or not, that FD perfectly does what an FD is supposed to do and they're gonna keep doing it.

I will say C/B have a history of falling and making noticeable mistakes like that. I think they did it every season from 2014-2015 to 2017-2018. But I do think this particular one was a fluke and I bet it won't happen at Worlds.

 

[heartyxo]

I will say C/B have a history of falling and making noticeable mistakes like that. I think they did it every season from 2014-2015 to 2017-2018. But I do think this particular one was a fluke and I bet it won't happen at Worlds.

Yeah.. apart from the collection of twizzle errors they have both had in the past I feel like most of their actual falls weren't on elements. Maybe they're just clumsy
Except the Olympics. But that was the one time they ever didn't get a level 4 combo spin, so also pretty flukey. And very depressing.

 

[Debbie S]

H/D are very powerful, with good skating skills, and when their twizzles are done cleanly, they are among the best in the world. But I don't see anything complex about their FD, or any of their recent FDs, really. They've never been strong in transitions - even their celebrated blues program 2 years ago had mostly 2-foot skating between the elements - and their lifts are pretty basic compared to other teams (not just C/B) at their level. Their coaches have done a good job of masking their weaknesses (as any coaching team would do) and focusing on the mood and presence and their power. But as many have already said, their programs this year, esp the FD, are not good.

H/D's FD music selection seems so perfect for them, I'm not sure what went wrong here.

Zach stumbled on the twizzles and Madi must have had some issue - their levels were 2 and 3. And only L3 on their 1-foot step sequence (C/B got L4 on twizzles and 1-foot). In fact, H/D had a lower base value than 3 teams that finished lower than they did and a lower TES than Wang/Liu.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

What they do have is beautiful body shapes, clean dancing, nuanced choreo to the music, and presence on the ice. Also, superior lifts and a program that really works.

Chock/Bates also have a big advantage in clearly improving over the last few years. They've given the judges a reason to sit up and notice their skills.

 

[Doggygirl]

I've been thinking about the H/D programs and trying to put my finger on what isn't working, at least for me. I'm wondering if they just don't do well when their programs involve "playing characters." Romeo and Juliet didn't do it for me. Marilyn and Joe don't do it for me, and the Star is Born characters don't do it for me. Maybe that is missing the point, and it's really more of an issue of music cuts (aka "Daddy") or choreo or some combination. But maybe playing characters doesn't work as well for them as just being themselves interpretting music via the dance (Beth Hart, Hallelujiah, I Wanna Dance With Somebody, etc)

I'm curious if anyone else has thought this...

 

[starrynight]

The implication there is pretty horrifying to me in terms of judging these days. How many fans someone has, how they look off ice, social media presence, etc should not be under consideration when judging.

H/D are certainly buying into that as they have done themed photoshoots representing each program and have been posting shots onto social media prior to competitions.

Which again is interesting because everyone says so much they can’t afford to buy costumes but they must see the benefit in paying for the photo shoots.

 

[VGThuy]

H/D are certainly buying into that as they have done themed photoshoots representing each program and have been posting shots onto social media prior to competitions.

Which again is interesting because everyone says so much they can’t afford to buy costumes but they must see the benefit in paying for the photo shoots.

And let's not pretend they haven't benefitted from fan goodwill either. Everybody does, but in the end, the skating will take one there more-or-less. Some times it does go overboard but that's more the powers-that-be and the judges fanning than regular fans.

 

[chantilly]

I just think H and D need an outside choreographer. There’s no where else they can go coach wise IMO.

I think if H and D had of stuck with Shallow and maybe added a complimentary piece of music it would have worked beautifully.

I don’t think they capitalized on the tragic story of the film and should have. If they created a mood like say Love Story and the dance was about her rise and his fall without the hoedown music break I really don’t think we’d be having these conversations. They have fabulous chemistry and could play that tragic romance

However I still think they’d be battling for the podium because P and C are that good and S and K are much improved as are C and B with great programs.

Not to mention G and P who have an outside shot with subpar performances of those top three.

H and D have the best skating skills outside of P and C, but they IMO have weaker lifts in general in the top 4/5 and are prone to skate heavy and tight.

But their real problem is their lack of identity or one that appeals.

 

[mollymgr]

I think for success in ice dance a program has to be cohesive, appealing and delivered smoothly without any jarring mistakes. It is quite difficult to gauge what an audience will like or won't like.
H/B's disco program was a perfect example where it was just shining at US Nationals, partly because the audience got into it and it fueled them to perform it to the max. But all the other times it has fallen a bit flat.
If it has a slight hint of the skaters themselves not fully buying into whatever they are trying to sell, it will show up in the scores one way or another.

 

[chantilly]

Didn’t H and B lose levels though which was the real issue ?

 

[mollymgr]

Didn’t H and B lose levels though which was the real issue ?

Are you referring to 4CC?

 

[chantilly]

Skate Canada

 

[chantilly]

I thought they had issues elsewhere too with levels this year. But I must admit I’m not getting to watch as much FS because coverage is so bad now

 

[mollymgr]

I just remember actually enjoying H/B's performance of that RD at Nationals. The other times seemed a bit tentative to me.