Russian Athletes Will Be Allowed To Participate in 2021 and 2022 Olympics and World Championships

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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14,248
Once again, Nikita & Victoria were a. injured & not even selected by the Russian Fed to compete at Worlds. And b. had already done enough skating prior to his pulling out of the FD at Nationals for it to be apparent that they were not going to make the Olympic team (and were unlikely to finish top 3 as they were down 3 points to Zahorski & Guerreiro after the RD & then mucked up a lift in the FD before Nikita bailed on the program).
 
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anonymoose_au

Well-Known Member
Messages
202
Once again, Nikita & Victoria were a. injured & not even selected by the Russian Fed to compete at Worlds. And b. had already done enough skating prior to his pulling out of the FD at Nationals for it to be apparent that they were not going to finish top 3.
Fair enough, but I maintain it was shitty to not explain why certain skaters weren't invited. Especially because of the fact Russia's doping program was in the spotlight.

I'm sure if you asked the casual viewer why they think those skaters didn't receive an invite they'd say "Must have been drug cheats."

If you want to talk about fairness in sport, I think letting people think athletes were doping when they weren't ranks just below actually doping.
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
Messages
4,713
I have one.

Not "inviting" Zhenya Med or Alina Z or T/M or Nikita and Victoria for no specific reason would have been too obvious.

By not inviting the second tier pairs and dance teams they weakened Russian in the team event.

Although I doubt it was for Canada's benefit specifically or that Canada would even ask such a thing, but it sure was a kick in the face for Russia. And a great way to decrease Russia's chance for medals even though they're not actually counted as Russian medals in the tally.
I really don't think it weakened them for all the reasons Tony and I have laid out. Russia could only make two subs in the team event and it was going to be ladies and pairs because that is where their depth was. In a scenario where both S/K and S/B are in Pyeongchang, S/B would not have been chosen for the team event with B/S the clear number one, and even if they had, they would not have beaten V/M and the Shibs. S/K would have maybe gotten Russia one more point than Z/E did, but that wouldn't have made a difference. Also, quite simply, Canada didn't need any outside help to win that team OGM. They had the depth and breadth across all four disciplines and Mike Slipchuk had made being prepared for the team event a priority

Dobre, the S/K in question as a sub for the team even was Stolbova/Klimov in pairs. You do make a good point about Nikita and Victoria being injured, not even finishing nationals, and not being selected for worlds. They often come up as being left off the team, but that is not the case. Nikita and Victoria didn't make the Olympic team to know if they would have been invited or not.

I do think, without evidence, it was unfair for S/B and S/K to not be able to compete in the individual events. It's just this did nothing to weaken Russia for the team event because S/B wouldn't have participated and S/K would have maybe pulled in one more point that wouldn't have helped anything.
 

mjb52

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5,995
I think one of the issues is that we are looking at this with knowledge of hindsight - that in the end, it wasn't particularly close between Canada and Russia and when you guys break it down, for sure, it seems true that excluding S/K and S/B didn't make much of a difference. However, it was anticipated that it would be close, and we don't know what impact creating a less strong team with less options had on the other skaters, like Kolyada's, state of mind. I don't think it's reasonable to say something as strong as "Canada cheated its way to a gold medal!11!!" but I do think it's reasonable to ask whether the exclusion of these two teams appears a little oddly targeted, in a way that adds to the overall frustration of not being given information about why these skaters particularly. So maybe it's possible for us to all compromise a little on that? Or not! :)
 

tony

The older, the crankier
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13,490
I think one of the issues is that we are looking at this with knowledge of hindsight - that in the end, it wasn't particularly close between Canada and Russia and when you guys break it down, for sure, it seems true that excluding S/K and S/B didn't make much of a difference. However, it was anticipated that it would be close, and we don't know what impact creating a less strong team with less options had on the other skaters, like Kolyada's, state of mind. I don't think it's reasonable to say something as strong as "Canada cheated its way to a gold medal!11!!" but I do think it's reasonable to ask whether the exclusion of these two teams appears a little oddly targeted, in a way that adds to the overall frustration of not being given information about why these skaters particularly. So maybe it's possible for us to all compromise a little on that? Or not! :)
Well you'd think it would be that easy on FSU, but we have people that go into meltdown mode when their baseless accusations are greeted with counterpoints. And then more accusations are thrown out because they have exactly zero logic to show proof of their claims, and they have nothing else to constructively add. It's FSU.

I think EVERYONE thought it was completely random/weird that Bukin and Stolbova were banned for the event, but they were amongst a huge list of other athletes that were also banned. I found it strange that the RSF didn't really push the issue and neither athlete really said much about it afterwards anyways, but I could be wrong here as I wasn't following the actual Russian articles during the time. Maybe that was on the advice of the RSF- we don't know. But going back to the point about it being a long list of athletes- said poster apparently thinks Canada was specifically part of that input to the list to directly affect the results of a figure skating team competition.

Kolyada didn't melt down because Stolbova wasn't in the team event. He was prone to those types of performances and unfortunately had one at a big moment.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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12,462
Ok, let’s rephrase it. Canada actively contributed to weakening their closest opponents, and then benefitted their way to victory! But oh, no, they didn’t cheat, they just made sure the opponent will be weaker. If Canada doesn’t want people to think that they cheated, maybe it would help not to mess around with their competitors’ team.

@mjb52 , that’s exactly what I was saying. No one could have known ahead that Kolyada would mess up. So saying that weakening their opponent didn’t play any role...seriously? Ever heard of the butterfly effect?
 

tony

The older, the crankier
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13,490
Ok, let’s rephrase it. Canada actively contributed to weakening their closest opponents, and then benefitted their way to victory! But oh, no, they didn’t cheat, they just made sure the opponent will be weaker. If Canada doesn’t want people to think that they cheated, maybe it would help not to mess around with their competitors’ team.

@mjb52 , that’s exactly what I was saying. No one could have known ahead that Kolyada would mess up. So saying that weakening their opponent didn’t play any role...seriously? Ever heard of the butterfly effect?
Now you're rephrasing days later after insisting you were right and trying to suggest (at the time) headcase Kolyada had a bad SP because Stolbova wasn't on the team? I've seen it all.

I'm still going to ask you to provide some kind of evidence that Canada was directly responsible for the banning of those two, as in Canada made the final decision on the entire matter, and that they had the intent of weakening a team event of figure skating specifically amongst a long line of other athletes that were also included.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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12,462
Now you're rephrasing days later after insisting you were right and trying to suggest (at the time) headcase Kolyada had a bad SP because Stolbova wasn't on the team? I've seen it all.

I'm still going to ask you to provide some kind of evidence that Canada was directly responsible for the banning of those two, as in Canada made the final decision on the entire matter, and that they had the intent of weakening a team event of figure skating specifically amongst a long line of other athletes that were also included.
Yes, I am rephrasing now, but I still believe that weakening opponent is cheating. You may object to that phrasing, but I can assure you that I wasn’t the only person who thought that when we were watching the Olympics.

I don’t really care who made the final decision. You are not going to claim that Canada didn’t have a huge contribution to it, are you? And Canada is the country who benefited in this sport.
 

mjb52

Well-Known Member
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5,995
Bukin definitely pushed it, and many many letters were written on his behalf. I don't know about Stolbova.

I would have to look this up, but wasn't there a prominent figure from the Canadian skating world in the early '00's who was involved in WADA and pushing for the restrictions on Russia. That always troubled me, not because I thought it was an evil conspiracy! but because I have seen the way people in positions of power often suffer from cognitive tunneling, and there was definitely a sort of mindset in which Russia was guilty unless proven innocent projected from the North American skating world of the late '90's and early '00's which I worried might have transmitted itself to this whole odd Sochi scandal, the details of which I find a bit bizarre (holes in walls? scratches on bottles?). Does this all rely on the evidence of this single figure Rodchenkov? It's just odd. But it's not something I've looked into thoroughly, b/c I wasn't following the sport closely at the time. And it seems a little silly to go back and look into it now.
 
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kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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35,725
What use are letters when the criteria for Bukin's exclusion were never disclosed? "I know him, and he'd never dope?" "He's nice to children and small animals?"
 

tony

The older, the crankier
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13,490
I must be confused, because I didn't realize that Canada either set the criteria for selection or determined which athletes were not invited. I thought WADA set the criteria and applied them to the athletes that the Federations presented as eligible.
She clearly doesn't get it and wants everyone to join in on her fantasies in her head as being absolute truth. And now, after several days of accusing anyone who didn't believe her stories as hating Russia/dragging it into other threads, she changes the wording now but still says Canada specifically had a huge part in those two athletes being banned, as the sole goal of cheating their way to gold in a team figure skating event.

She also still won't acknowledge that Zagitova/Medvedeva were locks for the team event, and somehow thinks Kolyada fell apart because Stolbova wasn't part of it.

There's still this assumption that baseless statements presented as fact are going to be accepted universally by everyone else.

Be careful, she will come back and say you must hate Russia too for not believing her story.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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35,725
@hanca would hardly be the first to argue here that McLaren was Canadian and that his leadership on the report was the main driver in any Russian athletes being excluded and not being able to compete under their flag or hear their anthem. But it's not as if the Report determined criteria and sactions on its own, let alone targeted specific athletes who were hardly guaranteed, and, in the case of Stepanova/Bukin, unlikely, to participate in the Figure Skating Team Event.

It was up to WADA to come up with criteria and sanctions, and it could have been a lot worse for Russian athletes.
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
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18,493
Now I’m confused. What does Stolbova have to do with headcase Kolyada? Best pals in 2018? 🤷‍♀️
I must have missed that memo.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,418
However, it was anticipated that it would be close,
It was? I remember discussions at the time saying Canada pretty much had the Gold Medal.

There are posters on here who are pretty good at remembering discussions from ages ago, maybe they can dig up the old threads and we can refresh our memories.
I think EVERYONE thought it was completely random/weird that Bukin and Stolbova were banned for the event, but they were amongst a huge list of other athletes that were also banned.
Again, that isn't my memory. My memory was that there were whispers that Stolbova had a doping issue in her past and that it was unfair that it impacted Bukin.

If Canada doesn’t want people to think that they cheated, maybe it would help not to mess around with their competitors’ team.
No one thinks Canada cheated except you.

You are not going to claim that Canada didn’t have a huge contribution to it, are you?
Yes, I am, actually. If you are going to claim that Canada, of all countries, helped decide which athletes were allowed to compete for Russia, then you have to explain how they got that power and how they wielded it when it wasn't officially their decision. Just declaring that they were responsible doesn't cut it.
 

nyrak

Active Member
Messages
801
It was? I remember discussions at the time saying Canada pretty much had the Gold Medal.

There are posters on here who are pretty good at remembering discussions from ages ago, maybe they can dig up the old threads and we can refresh our memories.

Again, that isn't my memory. My memory was that there were whispers that Stolbova had a doping issue in her past and that it was unfair that it impacted Bukin.


No one thinks Canada cheated except you.


Yes, I am, actually. If you are going to claim that Canada, of all countries, helped decide which athletes were allowed to compete for Russia, then you have to explain how they got that power and how they wielded it when it wasn't officially their decision. Just declaring that they were responsible doesn't cut it.
Canada had the strongest team in 2018. We won the gold. You might remember we won a gold & 2 bronze in individual skating events as well. End of story.
 

allezfred

In A Fake Snowball Fight
Staff member
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63,713
The only discipline where Russia held an out and out advantage over Canada in 2018 was the ladies. If Canada had been truly into weakening the opposition to give themselves a better chance of victory surely they would have gone after the ladies and not the second string pairs or dance teams?
 

Ka3sha

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8,602
Russian Olympic Committee made a suggestion to replace Russian anthem for international events with 'Katyusha', a popular Soviet folk-based song and military march.
 

Vagabond

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22,815
Russian Olympic Committee made a suggestion to replace Russian anthem for international events with 'Katyusha', a popular Soviet folk-based song and military march.
Oh, that will go down well with the IOC! :lol:
 
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VGThuy

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39,475
Wow. Does "Katyusha" possibly have any other historical/cultural significance outside the Soviet times and military context?
 

mjb52

Well-Known Member
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5,995
I was totally thinking Katyusha was Kalinka, which I think would be a fun choice.
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,602
Wow. Does "Katyusha" possibly have any other historical/cultural significance outside the Soviet times and military context?
That was actually a song about a woman who was singing this song to her beloved, a soldier leaving for war:
Apples and pears were blossoming
Mist on the river floating
On the bank Katyusha stepped out
On the high steep bank
http://russmus.net/song/5200
Stepped out, started a song
About one grey steppe eagle
About her loved one
Whose letters she cherished
http://russmus.net/song/5200
Oh song, maiden's song
Fly towards the clear sun
And to the warrior on a far away border
Bring Katyusha's greeting
http://russmus.net/song/5200
May he remember this simple maiden
And hear her singing
May he save our motherland
And love, Katyusha will save
During the War it became extremely popular as an inspiring patriotic song, and even Soviet rocket launchers got a nickname 'Katyusha' thanks to this song.

It's actually a beautiful song when it's not performed by an army choir. But yeah, it's mostly associated with military marches and parades now..
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
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8,602
Russian skaters are going to participate at Worlds (if there are Worlds this season) under 'Figure Skating Russia' (FSR) name & abbreviation.
 

taz'smum

'Be Kind' - every skater has their own story
Messages
3,214
Russian skaters are going to participate at Worlds (if there are Worlds this season) under 'Figure Skating Russia' (FSR) name & abbreviation.
It's a load of stuff and nonsense, what is the difference FSR or Russia? Everyone will know it is Russia competing and will in fact will probably draw people's attention even more to Russia's presence.
 

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