Russian Athletes Will Be Allowed To Participate in 2021 and 2022 Olympics and World Championships

hanca

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What I want to know is how Canada cheated their way to the gold when it was obvious Zagitova and Medvedeva would both compete in the team event, and the top 2 pairs from Nationals/GPF were assigned?

I’m completely 🤨 of some Canadian athlete results from about 1996 until 2003, but give me a break on this one.
How? By politicking to have their biggest competitor weakened. It’s common sense, if you take away their number 2 in two disciplines, you weaken the team. Surely even you won’t be saying that Astakhova/Rogonov was anywhere near comparable to Stolbova/Klimov? Or is Zagorski/Gureiro comparable to Stepanova/Bukin? Even you must be able to see the difference. No matter how much you would like to pretend that everything was ok.
 

tony

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How? By politicking to have their biggest competitor weakened. It’s common sense, if you take away their number 2 in two disciplines, you weaken the team. Surely even you won’t be saying that Astakhova/Rogonov was anywhere near comparable to Stolbova/Klimov? Or is Zagorski/Gureiro comparable to Stepanova/Bukin? Even you must be able to see the difference. No matter how much you would like to pretend that everything was ok.
Again, how did it affect the team event where only two disciplines can have two entries, and the ladies were definitely going to be Medvedeva and Zagitova?

Pick an argument that makes sense.

Also, where did Canada have anything to do with the decision? If anything, the Russian Fed, who ALWAYS has something to say, didnt seem to really fight the decision that much... which isn’t suspicious at all, don’t you think?

ETA- Stolbova/Klimov were not the number 2 that season and had a downwards trend in the year prior to that.
 

hanca

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Again, how did it affect the team event where only two disciplines can have two entries, and the ladies were definitely going to be Medvedeva and Zagitova?

Pick an argument that makes sense.

Also, where did Canada have anything to do with the decision? If anything, the Russian Fed, who ALWAYS has something to say, didnt seem to really fight the decision that much which isn’t suspicious at all, don’t you think?
But we are talking about team event. You don’t know what their choices would be if S/B and S/K were not banned. You only guess that they would choose the same what they chose, but their choices were influenced by the fact that they didn’t have much choice!
 

angi

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How? By politicking to have their biggest competitor weakened. It’s common sense, if you take away their number 2 in two disciplines, you weaken the team. Surely even you won’t be saying that Astakhova/Rogonov was anywhere near comparable to Stolbova/Klimov? Or is Zagorski/Gureiro comparable to Stepanova/Bukin? Even you must be able to see the difference. No matter how much you would like to pretend that everything was ok.
You know what's so funny about your take? That if you take Canada's number 2 out in 3/4 disciplines it wouldn't even matter because they didn't even participate in the team event, they only subbed the ladies. So theoretically Russia could have done the exact same and get T/M to do both segments instead of using Z/E. But again, to think that more than 110 athletes were banned from the games just so Bukin and Stolbova won't theoretically help Russia win team gold in skating is nonsense. The irony is that it was Russia that played dirty in order to win the team gold in Sochi with their Plushenko move.
 

seabm7

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What I want to know is how Canada cheated their way to the gold when it was obvious Zagitova and Medvedeva would both compete in the team event, and the top 2 pairs from Nationals/GPF were assigned?

I’m completely 🤨 of some Canadian athlete results from about 1996 until 2003, but give me a break on this one.


Kolyada was 8th in the short. Then Patrick Chan and Duhamel & Radford won their respective FS. But I wonder if this information is relavant to the ongoing discussion.
 

hanca

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You know what's so funny about your take? That if you take Canada's number 2 out in 3/4 disciplines it wouldn't even matter because they didn't even participate in the team event, they only subbed the ladies. So theoretically Russia could have done the exact same and get T/M to do both segments instead of using Z/E. But again, to think that more than 110 athletes were banned from the games just so Bukin and Stolbova won't theoretically help Russia win team gold is nonsense. The irony is that it was Russia that played dirty in order to win the team gold in Sochi with their Plushenko move.
Russia played dirty? As far as I am concerned, there was nothing wrong with Pluschenko competing. What exactly is dirty on him competing? The fact that he withdrew from the men event? Surely even you can’t argue with the xray where he showed that a screw in his back broke. WTH do you expect him to do, skate with that?

The level of Russia hatred is astonishing, considering that they didn’t even do anything to you personally.
 

tony

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But we are talking about team event. You don’t know what their choices would be if S/B and S/K were not banned. You only guess that they would choose the same what they chose, but their choices were influenced by the fact that they didn’t have much choice!
You’re out of your mind if you think both ladies weren’t going to be chosen. Literally out of your mind. S/K had zero reason to be chosen, Zabiiako/Enbert were in the GPF, they were 2nd in Nats, and they were 2nd-highest in Euros. But sure. Also, with the Canadians and Americans in the team event dance, I’m not sure what you think would’ve happened for Russia to suddenly gain back all these points.

Kolyada was 8th in the short. Then Patrick Chan and Duhamel & Radford won their respective FS
And no offense, but WTF does that have to do with anything? No man was banned, D/R were on fire and especially Marchei/Hotarek delivered in that team event, and like I’ve said above, Z/E were the 2nd-best Russian pair at that point no matter how much a few of you want to throw this Canada cheating thing in.
 

tony

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The level of Russia hatred is astonishing, considering that they didn’t even do anything to you personally.
I love the Russians so get outta here with that and explain why a country that has something to say about everything had next to nothing to say about those two bans. That’s what I find the most interesting.

But keep on with talking about Russian hate when you somehow attribute solid skates from Canada to all of this.
 

hanca

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Yes, I can see how much you love Russians, if you think that banning any Russian team without being able to show any proof of any wrongdoing is ok. Make sure your excessive love doesn’t kill them!
 

tony

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Yes, I can see how much you love Russians, if you think that banning any Russian team without being able to show any proof of any wrongdoing is ok. Make sure your excessive love doesn’t kill them!
You’re being pathetic. I said explain how Canada cheated their way to gold, as you highlighted, and you’re melting down about me hating Russians.
 

angi

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Russia played dirty? As far as I am concerned, there was nothing wrong with Pluschenko competing. What exactly is dirty on him competing? The fact that he withdrew from the men event? Surely even you can’t argue with the xray where he showed that a screw in his back broke. WTH do you expect him to do, skate with that?

The level of Russia hatred is astonishing, considering that they didn’t even do anything to you personally.
Listen, we've been giving you detailed responses and you've spiraled into some incohesive rants about us hating Russians (?) when it was you who started a response with "Look, I have no reason to love Russians, they occupied my country and we were forcefully taught Russian language at school, watching Russians films on Tv and going through other forms of Russian brainwashing."
There's not much left to say when you refuse to stray from the "logic" you came into the discussion with no matter how we all explain in detail how banning both Bukin and Stolboca made zero difference...
 

hanca

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You’re being pathetic. I said explain how Canada cheated their way to gold, as you highlighted, and you’re melting down about me hating Russians.
I think I explained it pretty clearly. Politicking. Or do you think that banning Russian skaters happened by power of God? Of course not. A few countries with politicking power tried their best and the result is that one can be banned from olympics while there is nothing they can do about it, no evidence against the skater, and the whole matter is made covered with secrecy... and the skaters remain eligible to skate at any other competitions. If you think there is nothing fishy there, there is no point discussing it with you. When someone is being punished, there must be transparency. There wasn’t any transparency on this occasion. I wonder why!
 

tony

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I think I explained it pretty clearly. Politicking. Or do you think that banning Russian skaters happened by power of God? Of course not. A few countries with politicking power tried their best and the result is that one can be banned from olympics while there is nothing they can do about it, no evidence against the skater, and the whole matter is made covered with secrecy... and the skaters remain eligible to skate at any other competitions. If you think there is nothing fishy there, there is no point discussing it with you.
And you think that only Russian figure skaters were banned in this whole thing?

It’s going over your head, but I’d still like you to demonstrate how putting the 3rd-best pair on the team event and/or using Bukin in dance, with Virtue/Moir and the Shibutanis in the event, was going to change the result. I’ll wait while you bitch about my Russian hatred some more and/or ignore this.
 

hanca

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And you think that only Russian figure skaters were banned in this whole thing?
Your argument is a bit off. So the fact that Russian skaters are not the only ones who were banned, that made the banning ok?
 

tony

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Your argument is a bit off. So the fact that Russian skaters are not the only ones who were banned, that made the banning ok?
I NEVER SAID THAT I FELT IT WAS OK. I’ve been clear about that in the past and many times questioned why it wasn’t fought or explored more.

Second, please explain how Canada specifically cheated their way to gold without those two athletes, like I’ve literally asked several times since this is the quote I focused on initially and you’ve gone into meltdown mode repeatedly.
 

caseyedwards

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Allowing and banning Russians power was given French sports minister Valerie fourneyron and she has never explained or never been asked why she banned who she banned.
 

tony

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Wrong thread. But yeah, that evil French and Canadian connection.
 

aka_gerbil

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Russia could only make two subs in the team event, like everyone else. It was clear ladies would be one of those and both Alina and Zhenya were there.

At the time of the team event almost three years ago, B/S was clearly the top dance team. I can’t imagine a scenario in which they didn’t use B/S for both segments. If S/B had been in Pyeongchang, they would not have been in the team event.

If S/K had been present, I think they would have gotten the nod for the FS over Z/E. S/K might have finished 2nd to Z/E’s third and gotten them one more point that would not have changed a thing in the overall team standings.

Honestly, the thing that hurt OAR the most in the team event was Kolyada.
 

Dobre

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Bobrova & Soloviev were always going to be the only team that competed for Russia in the team event in 2018, IMO.

Sinitsina & Katsalapov did not make the team & he injured himself at nationals anyway.

Stepanova & Bukin didn't have the experience and had never defeated any of the teams that Bobrova & Soloviev finished behind so there would have been no point in swapping B&S out. S&B had a nice European Championships at home, but even if Russia had opted to take the risk to swap out B&S, the only dance they would have done that for would have been the RD--which would have been the riskiest. And S&B would have gone down to at least the same teams anyway.
 
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hanca

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Everyone seems to be certain that they know how it would finish because “Stepanova and Bukin never defeated any of the teams B/S finished behind...”. If during a competition it was so easy to guess the exact outcome, everyone would be guessing right. The guessing contest we have on this forum actually shows that only a tiny percentage of people usually guesses the outcome right. Arguing that any skater or dance couple or pair ever defeated his/her/their competitors and therefore could not win an event is also a bit weak argument. No one expected Stolbova/Klimov to defeat Savchenko/Szolkowy and Duhamel/Radford in Sochi. Did Stolbova/Klimov actually managed to beat those two pairs before?

Also, at the time certain countries were trying hard to reduce Russian team, no one could have known ahead that Kolyada will make a mess of it. So saying that there was no intent to reduce the team because Russia couldn’t win because of Kolyada’s mistakes is also illogical.
 

tony

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@hanca Well, here you are again. First, you’re still trying to claim in some backwards way that we don’t know if Zagitova and Medvedeva would’ve both competed. Like I told you in one of my very first replies that you ignored: please.

Second, yes, the ice is slippery. If you think Stepanova and Bukin would’ve skated the FD or whatever hypothetical you have and that they would’ve been able to beat Virtue/Moir and/or Shibutanis, then go for it.

As I’ve also repeated many times, Stolbova/Klimov had no reason to be named to the team event. They weren’t the second-best couple that season. But since you literally think that all of these points were coming back, let’s say S/K all of a sudden skate clean in the LP. They might not even beat the Canadians in that portion, and Marchei/Hotarek were on fire. Give Russia back one point but even that is questionable.

You’re also on a rampage about ‘certain countries’ trying to stop them from competing. Of course, it’s still somehow Canada which I don’t get why you’re even trying with it anymore unless you want to show me all these articles that say Canada was specifically behind this whole thing.

Moreover, it doesn’t matter if they didn’t know Kolyada was going to bomb ahead of time. What you’re still not understanding is the two athletes you continue to bitch about had very little to no chance of being on the team event, period. And you refuse to accept the Med/Zag team pick which shows how ridiculous you’re being.
 
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aka_gerbil

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Moreover, it doesn’t matter if they didn’t know Kolyada was going to bomb ahead of time. What you’re still not understanding is the two athletes you continue to bitch about had very little to no chance of being on the team event, period. And you refuse to accept the Med/Zag team pick which shows how ridiculous you’re being.


This.

You make your subs where your depth is, and it was going to be pairs and ladies for Russia. B/S were clearly and firmly Russia number 1 in dance at that time. S/B would have never gotten the nod over them even if they’d been there. I also have a bridge for sale in London if you think S/B would have beaten V/M and Shibs if B/S hadn’t been able to compete for some reason. As Tony pointed out, S/K didn’t have even the second best season of the Russian pairs that year. I could see them getting the nod based on internal politics, and maybe they might have pulled off a place higher than Z/E, but it wouldn’t have made a difference in the end.

Also, Canada didn’t need any help to win on the merits of their skating alone. Everyone that they used was a world medalist at some point—all but Chan within that quad. V/M, D/R, and Chan were all holders of multiple world titles.

I think the point we are trying to make is that even if S/B and S/K hadn’t been excluded from the games, it wouldn’t have made one bit of difference in the team event.
 

tony

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Calling @hanca back into the thread she's abandoned to possibly provide articles or statements that make Canada responsible for Russia's doping scandal/fallout?
 

Tinami Amori

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Calling @hanca back into the thread she's abandoned to possibly provide articles or statements that make Canada responsible for Russia's doping scandal/fallout?
Have you not heard of McLaran Report? He is Canadian law professor Richard McLaren and he released an explosive WADA report outlining state-run Russian doping at the Sochi Games and other major events.

Canadian media was buzzing with "worst possible negativity" on the situation.

Megan Duhamel had a blast pouring negativity towards Russians athletes, spilling it over into figure skating...

Hanca did not say "Canada is responsible for what happened in Russia" i am sure, but Canada certainly played a major role in expanding the scandal.
 

tony

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Have you not heard of McLaran Report? He is Canadian law professor Richard McLaren and he released an explosive WADA report outlining state-run Russian doping at the Sochi Games and other major events.

Canadian media was buzzing with "worst possible negativity" on the situation.

Megan Duhamel had a blast pouring negativity towards Russians athletes, spilling it over into figure skating...

Hanca did not say "Canada is responsible for what happened in Russia" i am sure, but Canada certainly played a major role in expanding the scandal.
She said Canada cheated their way to gold [in the team event] and then tried to say I hate Russians, because I said that's illogical based on the team event performances/who would've potentially been entered. Then she went into another thread to try to start back up, so I reminded her that she still avoided the stuff here.

ETA- once again @Tinami Amori comes in with at least some semblance of supporting details.. as opposed to freaking out and jumping to accusations.
 

Tinami Amori

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She said Canada cheated their way to gold [in the team event] and then tried to say I hate Russians because I said that's illogical based on the team event performances and who would've potentially been entered. Then she went into another thread to try to start back up, so I reminded her that she still avoided the stuff here.
Just for the record: She was connecting "Canada's very active involvement in the doping scandal" to some of the consequences it created - Stolbova/Klimov, Stepanova/Bukin out of Russia's Team, stating that such holding back benefited Canada.

I am not taking sides which one of you is right as far as "would it have made a difference if these two teams were allowed to participate".

"History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood"... :) or to be exact, as the famous Karl Hampe said it: "Die Geschichte kennt kein Wenn".
 

tony

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Just for the record: She was connecting "Canada's very active involvement in the doping scandal" with some of the consequences it created - Stolbova/Klimov, Stepanova/Bukin out of Russia's Team.

I am not taking sides which one of you is right as far as "would it have made a difference if these two teams were allowed to participate".

"History does not tolerate the subjunctives"... :) or to be exact, as the famous Karl Hampe said it: "Die Geschichte kennt kein Wenn".
I get it. But the initial comment that I replied to in this thread was that Canada 'cheated their way to a gold medal'. No more, no less. Then I got a bunch of incoherent hyper-posts and claims that I hate Russian skaters/don't care about them because I simply repeatedly asked for the basis of such. There was an attempt to get a few digs in a different thread earlier, so I was reminding that the anger and claims being made there can be returned to this thread, but you've already provided me more than she has in your one post. So thank you. (And note in her very first reply, she's telling me what I must see).
 

Cherub721

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As I’ve also repeated many times, Stolbova/Klimov had no reason to be named to the team event. They weren’t the second-best couple that season.

This is academic, and not related to the overall discussion, but I have to defend Stolbova/Klimov's honor. :drama: First of all I do remember press reports that T&M were asked at the last minute to do both events after S&K weren't invited, but said no because of a minor injury, so the nod went to Z&E. Plus I still have the spreadsheets I made going into the 2018 team event :lol: I used season's best scores going into the Olympics. S&K's SB was only 1 point behind D&R's, so I had them 2nd to D&R in the Team LP (S&H had the highest score but my SP predictions didn't have China advancing to the final), or potentially in 1st ahead of D&R if we used personal best scores (from the time S&K landed the triple triple and won GPF). S&K arguably had a dark horse potential for an individual bronze if they skated their best (they probably wouldn't have beaten the skate D&R actually laid out in the individual event, but that was 5 points higher than D&R had gotten that season). S&K ended up 5th on the overall SB list for 2017-18, about 10 points ahead of Z&E, and beat Z&E at Nationals and Euros. Z&E also didn't medal on the GP that season, so I don't know where this idea comes from that S&K were not clearly the #2 team. In fact, Astakhova/Rogonov won two GP bronze medals and had a shot at the third spot, and some people, including me, thought Z&E were overscored at Nationals to get them on the team.

Again, I understand that S&K skating in the Team LP wouldn't have changed the result even if they'd taken first, just thread drift.
 

tony

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This is academic, and not related to the overall discussion, but I have to defend Stolbova/Klimov's honor. :drama: First of all I do remember press reports that T&M were asked at the last minute to do both events after S&K weren't invited, but said no because of a minor injury, so the nod went to Z&E. Plus I still have the spreadsheets I made going into the 2018 team event :lol: I used season's best scores going into the Olympics. S&K's SB was only 1 point behind D&R's, so I had them 2nd to D&R in the Team LP (S&H had the highest score but my SP predictions didn't have China advancing to the final), or potentially in 1st ahead of D&R if we used personal best scores (from the time S&K landed the triple triple and won GPF). S&K arguably had a dark horse potential for an individual bronze if they skated their best (they probably wouldn't have beaten the skate D&R actually laid out in the individual event, but that was 5 points higher than D&R had gotten that season). S&K ended up 5th on the overall SB list for 2017-18, about 10 points ahead of Z&E, and beat Z&E at Nationals and Euros. Z&E also didn't medal on the GP that season, so I don't know where this idea comes from that S&K were not clearly the #2 team. In fact, Astakhova/Rogonov won two GP bronze medals and had a shot at the third spot, and some people, including me, thought Z&E were overscored at Nationals to get them on the team.

Again, I understand that S&K skating in the Team LP wouldn't have changed the result even if they'd taken first, just thread drift.
Yes, I need to correct myself there and thank you for pointing out: I think I was confusing my memory of the 2018-2019 season because I thought for some reason Z/E were in the 17-18 GPF and clearly they were not. S/K definitely were second-best at all major events in 2018, maybe even beating T/M somewhere (GPF?) I think Zabiiako's costume change and riveting free skate that year just made me all confused. :lol:

Still, T/M skate the short as really solid, reliable skaters, and we can give Russia one more point in the LP and Italy one less point, BUT I'm still sticking by (my correct memory of) Marchei/Hotarek's free skates from both the team and individual competitions as being high up on the absolute top moments of those Games. The assured landing of that final throw 3Lz both times- just incredible.
 

anonymoose_au

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Pick an argument that makes sense
I have one.

Not "inviting" Zhenya Med or Alina Z or T/M or Nikita and Victoria for no specific reason would have been too obvious.

By not inviting the second tier pairs and dance teams they weakened Russian in the team event.

Although I doubt it was for Canada's benefit specifically or that Canada would even ask such a thing, but it sure was a kick in the face for Russia. And a great way to decrease Russia's chance for medals even though they're not actually counted as Russian medals in the tally.

By the same token Viktor Anh, a South Korean who became a Russian and had great success in Sochi 2014 was also not invited despite no questionable doping tests or anything. I think that was clearly much more personal, a request from South Korea to punish him for leaving and a pretty shitty thing to do.
 
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