Russian Athletes Will Be Allowed To Participate in 2021 and 2022 Olympics and World Championships

Tinami Amori

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20,157
I'm confused. At what point are they going to stop punishing Russia for the same thing? It seems like beating a dead horse. Also, who knows if there even will be an Olympics within the next two years. With the way everything is going, looks like things will be delayed another year.
It is not "the same thing", but it is pretty much "the same old issue". Russian side was to turn over the original data (that had to do with the original issues) by certain date. Russian side was not only late, but it was discovered they manipulated some of the data (on the old issues). It was not done by RUSADA, and there were no "current hidden cases of doping". But there had to be consequences for data manipulation, so this is the punishment as it is stated.
 

Lemonade20

If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
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I don’t think they will ever get it till there is a full ban on athletes competing from Russia. If everyone else is onboard, they better get on too. Just seems unfair to those who are doing all the right things
 

Tinami Amori

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20,157
I don’t think they will ever get it till there is a full ban on athletes competing from Russia. If everyone else is onboard, they better get on too. Just seems unfair to those who are doing all the right things
Current athletes did nothing wrong, nor the "data manipulation" was a command from above. It was done, as a private initiative, by some "old timers" in order to protect a few athletes from earlier Olympics who "paid off" the "old timers" to help them to save their titles and their current posts.

It's like if few dishonest city bus drivers pocket the ticket money from riders, it does not mean that the City Administration and Mayor are guilty.
 

skatingguy

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12,562
My daughter has done all the right things, so why is it fair to ban her?
It's not. None of it is fair to the athletes, and the fact that the Russian sporting officials have continued to allow their athletes to suffer the uncertainty of this situation is awful. What do you think your daughter would have done had she been pressured to participate in a doping scheme, if say she was competing at the Sochi Olympics? Would she have left Russia?
 

taz'smum

'Be Kind' - every skater has their own story
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It's not. None of it is fair to the athletes, and the fact that the Russian sporting officials have continued to allow their athletes to suffer the uncertainty of this situation is awful. What do you think your daughter would have done had she been pressured to participate in a doping scheme, if say she was competing at the Sochi Olympics? Would she have left Russia?

There does not appear to be any real benefit in doping in skating, except perhaps to recover more quickly from injury.
As such the doping question doesn't really apply to skaters, so she would never have been in such a situation.

Both Tiff and Jon have extremely strong anti doping views and will not take anything without having it checked by the National team doctors, including every day over the counter medicines.
 

skatingguy

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There does not appear to be any real benefit in doping in skating, except perhaps to recover more quickly from injury.
As such the doping question doesn't really apply to skaters, so she would never have been in such a situation.
I'm not sure that I believe that, but I understand that most doping happens in endurance sports so figure skating would not be at the top of the list.
Both Tiff and Jon have extremely strong anti doping views and will not take anything without having it checked by the National team doctors, including every day over the counter medicines.
You raised a good kid. I look forward to seeing them skate at Russian Nationals.
 

Orm Irian

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Both Tiff and Jon have extremely strong anti doping views and will not take anything without having it checked by the National team doctors, including every day over the counter medicines.
And what if they found out after the fact that the doctors had lied to them, and that substances they thought were safe to take were actually illegal - or that they'd been given such substances without being informed? That they had, effectively, been doping all along without their own knowledge or consent? Because that has happened to athletes from more than one country in the past, including Russia if I'm remembering correctly. Given their anti-doping views, how would they feel about their own participation in competitions and any medals they might have won at them then, not to mention the country that tricked them into betraying their principles so it could add a few more medals to its tally? Shouldn't they be safe from even having to think about that possibility?

Bans aren't an ideal or even a certain way of ensuring that they are safe, but if a country cares so much about winning medals that it's willing to do that to its own people, cutting it off from the possibility of winning any medals is the best behaviour-modification option we've currently got. Of course you can't institute sanctions against a country that does the wrong thing on such a huge scale, betraying not only the principles of competition but its own people, without the athletes who compete for that country - whether they've been caught up in state-sanctioned doping or not - becoming collateral damage, and that is a huge shame for those athletes. But there are greater principles at stake than them getting to do what they want no matter what their country did, and one of those is making sure that they are safe from their own country. Not to mention that athletes from all the countries that didn't run state-sanctioned doping programs and then fudge the paperwork after they got caught the first time have rights too.
 

Bigbird

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2,851
I'm confused. At what point are they going to stop punishing Russia for the same thing? It seems like beating a dead horse. Also, who knows if there even will be an Olympics within the next two years. With the way everything is going, looks like things will be delayed another year.
Exactly. It is a joke. The Russians are clearly laughing at the world just now.
 

riverzz

Member
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22
This is becoming a regular thing because Russia is a regular cheating empire. Nothing will change they don’t care. It is a joke. All athletes from Russia should be banned. However Russia opens the ISU they rest of the world - minions.
 

LoopCombo

Well-Known Member
Messages
161
I don’t understand the hate in this thread towards Russia. I am British but live in the United States, and I don’t agree with lots of policies and actions from either of my home countries, nor do lots of people who live in the UK and US. I am still proud to be British, though — it’s an intangible thing. And despite its problems, I do enjoy my life in the US. What makes anyone think Russians are any different? Russia is a beautiful country full of all kinds of interesting people, who have very little if anything to do with how Russia is run. If a sports program has been proved to be cheating, I understand that an international body can impose sanctions, but if individual athletes are not guilty, why should they be punished? I believe that the ban on the Russian flag, etc., is intended to send a message by a type of humiliation of national pride — not to ban innocent athletes who have done nothing wrong.
 

ChiquitaBanana

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2,034
There does not appear to be any real benefit in doping in skating, except perhaps to recover more quickly from injury.
As such the doping question doesn't really apply to skaters, so she would never have been in such a situation.

Both Tiff and Jon have extremely strong anti doping views and will not take anything without having it checked by the National team doctors, including every day over the counter medicines.
Power,
Explosion in jumps,
Stamina so you don’t get tired by the end of the program thus making the last jumps easier than your opponents,
Endurance so you train for longer periods of time
Delaying puberty
...
Doping happens in many sports, not just endurance sports. And it is not only Russia doping.
 

caseyedwards

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18,234
Because the athletes who will be allowed to participate weren't involved in the doping.

If Russia doesn't shape up, however, there won't be any Russian athletes competing, clean or not.
They keep blaming all of Russia for actions of one person. Face it: Russia Can never ever “shape up” under these circumstances
 

caseyedwards

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18,234
They weren't punishing the country because individual athletes doped. They were attempting to punish the country for an extensive programme of state-sponsored doping without unduly punishing individual athletes who had no record of being involved in the programme (willingly or otherwise). Unfortunately, it seems that when a country is willing to corrupt, abuse and/or harm its own athletes in order to win medals as a start point, that kind of line-walking defeats the purpose of the sanction - so long as the country gets to be in any way linked to further medals, the wrist-slap gets shrugged off as meaningless. And to be fair, it pretty much is. They need to go for an extended full-on ban, but just like in any sport, where money is involved that's unlikely to happen. Look at how lightly Australia's cheating cricketers got off, after all.
Russia has a state controlled state sponsored sports program. There is no one in sports in Russia who is not a part of the state. The idea of doping being state sponsored is absurd. Sports is what is state sponsored. Doping is not. They understand this when it comes to China but China is never banned? They understand that because China is communist everything is state sponsored but the doping they rule is not even though everyone who dopes in China is an employee of the state!! But because Russia is not communist state controlling sports is seen as nefarious!!
 
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Tinami Amori

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20,157
Russia has a state controlled state sponsored sports program. There is no one in sports in Russia who is not a part of the state. The idea of doping being state sponsored is absurd. Sports is what is state sponsored. Doping is not. They understand this when it comes to China but China is never banned? They understand that because China is communist everything is state sponsored but the doping they rule is not even though everyone who dopes in China is an employee of the state!! But because Russia is not communist state controlling sports is seen as nefarious!!
Not exactly true. There are state sponsored sports schools, examples in figure skating are CSKA, Sambo-70, and then there are PRIVATE sports schools, examples in figure skating are Angels of Pluschenko, Army of Skaters. Private schools get NO funding from State, they are funded strictly on "commercial basis". Athletes on National Team (who skate in private clubs) may get funded/stipends, but first they have to reach that level, it takes years and lots of family money, and if they are funded it is them not the club, and money go with them, not stay with the club.
 

caseyedwards

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Not exactly true. There are state sponsored sports schools, examples in figure skating are CSKA, Sambo-70, and then there are PRIVATE sports schools, examples in figure skating are Angels of Pluschenko, Army of Skaters. Private schools get NO funding from State, they are funded strictly on "commercial basis". Athletes on National Team (who skate in private clubs) may get funded/stipends, but first they have to reach that level, it takes years and lots of family money, and if they are funded it is them not the club, and money go with them, not stay with the club.
I was mostly thinking of non figure skating like high jump or pole vaulting or race walking! Sports with no potential for professional careers. So it’s all about the Russian state funding it for Olympics. And Olympics only! Many people see all the skaters on tv and may spend their own money. But how many shot put people are spending their own money?
 

hanca

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My daughter has done all the right things, so why is it fair to ban her?
Because she could be potentially threat to some other teams. Though I would say she is quite safe, because she is not as big threat as let’s say Trusova, Scherbakova, Valieva or Kostornaya. If someone will be banned without a reason, it will be one of them. USA and Canada will not want another Olympics where Russia will get top two places in ladies.
 

hanca

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Sure. That's it. The entire drugging scandal was all about stopping the top Russian ladies for Canada and the US even though they still have to get past Japan.
The entire drugging scandal no. But banning Stolbova and Bukin, while not being able to give any decent reason, yes, it was political. A few powerful countries were worried about Russia getting another gold team medal, so they banned one of the top Russian pair team and one of the top Russian dance team. I wonder how Canada would have done in the team event if someone decided that Duhamel/Radford and Virtue/Moir would sit out this event. Just saying...
 

angi

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The entire drugging scandal no. But banning Stolbova and Bukin, while not being able to give any decent reason, yes, it was political. A few powerful countries were worried about Russia getting another gold team medal, so they banned one of the top Russian pair team and one of the top Russian dance team. I wonder how Canada would have done in the team event if someone decided that Duhamel/Radford and Virtue/Moir would sit out this event. Just saying...
What's political about banning Stolbova and Bukin? Going with your logic (which I disagree with but let's ignore that for a moment) they should have banned skaters who posed a threat to Canadian/American skaters. Both teams weren't close to being a threat, Stepanova/Bukin finished 10th at 2017 Worlds, after the six Canadian and American dance teams, they won some GP medals but were not in contention for anything in Pyeongchang, not even as dark horses. Stolbova/Klimov were obviously a notable team but they were also plagued with bad luck and injuries and with how the top three teams performed, had no real chance of making the podium.
So comparing banning Canada's top teams that were considered medal contenders to two Russian teams that weren't really posing a threat to anyone is really hurting your theory. Basically, if Bukin and Stolbova weren't banned nothing about the final results would have changed.
 

hanca

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What's political about banning Stolbova and Bukin? Going with your logic (which I disagree with but let's ignore that for a moment) they should have banned skaters who posed a threat to Canadian/American skaters. Both teams weren't close to being a threat, Stepanova/Bukin finished 10th at 2017 Worlds, after the six Canadian and American dance teams, they won some GP medals but were not in contention for anything in Pyeongchang, not even as dark horses. Stolbova/Klimov were obviously a notable team but they were also plagued with bad luck and injuries and with how the top three teams performed, had no real chance of making the podium.
So comparing banning Canada's top teams that were considered medal contenders to two Russian teams that weren't really posing a threat to anyone is really hurting your theory. Basically, if Bukin and Stolbova weren't banned nothing about the final results would have changed.
You seriously don’t know what’s political about banning Stolbova and Bukin? Ok, what about the fact that they were never banned by ISU for drug offences and they were allowed to attend Euroeans a month before the Olympics and worlds a month after the Olympics. That means, they were clean for some competitions, and yet not allowed to the Olympics. And when they are clean that they are allowed to attend all other competitions and the banning authority at the same time is not able to provide any decent reason why someone who has never been banned for taking anything that is not allowed and who is allowed to compete just a month before and a month after the Olympics is not allowed to compete at the Olympics, I think it is pretty clear that there are different reasons for banning them. It was political alright!
 

angi

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You seriously don’t know what’s political about banning Stolbova and Bukin? Ok, what about the fact that they were never banned by ISU for drug offences and they were allowed to attend Euroeans a month before the Olympics and worlds a month after the Olympics. That means, they were clean for some competitions, and yet not allowed to the Olympics. And when they are clean that they are allowed to attend all other competitions and the banning authority at the same time is not able to provide any decent reason why someone who has never been banned for taking anything that is not allowed and who is allowed to compete just a month before and a month after the Olympics is not allowed to compete at the Olympics, I think it is pretty clear that there are different reasons for banning them. It was political alright!
What you are describing is the ISU being their useless selves, not a political move by who knows who in order to ban two skaters who posed no threat to anyone's chance for a medal. What was gained by banning them? It affected nothing in terms of skating aside from allowing Zahorski/Guerreiro and Astakhova/Rogonov to have an Olympic experience.
 

hanca

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What you are describing is the ISU being their useless selves, not a political move by who knows who in order to ban two skaters who posed no threat to anyone's chance for a medal. What was gained by banning them? It affected nothing in terms of skating aside from allowing Zahorski/Guerreiro and Astakhova/Rogonov to have an Olympic experience.
What was gained? Do you seriously ask me that? If you have a country with two strong dance couples and two strong pair teams, and you force them to use only one of the pairs and one of the dancers by banning the other pair and dance couple, you actually weakened their team. So what do you think was gained? Canada had easier path to their gold medal, that was what was gained. Canada cheated their way to a gold medal. Well, at least this time they didn’t have to insist on two gold medals being rewarded as they did in the past.
 

angi

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What was gained? Do you seriously ask me that? If you have a country with two strong dance couples and two strong pair teams, and you force them to use only one of the pairs and one of the dancers by banning the other pair and dance couple, you actually weakened their team. So what do you think was gained? Canada had easier path to their gold medal, that was what was gained. Canada cheated their way to a gold medal. Well, at least this time they didn’t have to insist on two gold medals being rewarded as they did in the past.
Your over the top "Do you seriously ask me that?" are unnecessary, if you look at the teams' results you'd see nothing would have changed if S/K or S/B were there. There's a lot to be said about the untransparent way in which the Olympic committee decided to ban athletes but insisting it was part of a scheme to somehow get Canada the team gold is some weird conspiracy theory that is not based on anything. Canada would have won gold even if S/K and S/B were there.
 

hanca

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Your over the top "Do you seriously ask me that?" are unnecessary, if you look at the teams' results you'd see nothing would have changed if S/K or S/B were there. There's a lot to be said about the untransparent way in which the Olympic committee decided to ban athletes but insisting it was part of a scheme to somehow get Canada the team gold is some weird conspiracy theory that is not based on anything. Canada would have won gold even if S/K and S/B were there.
Look, I have no reason to love Russians, they occupied my country and we were forcefully taught Russian language at school, watching Russians films on Tv and going through other forms of Russian brainwashing. Nevertheless, what happened with banning skaters without having any reason, not being able to provide any proof against them and making it not transparent, that’s sick. That’s bending the rules to cheat, I am sorry to say that. Whether Canada would win the gold, well, we will never know, will we? Because someone felt that Russia had too many decent pairs and dancers and did their best to weaken their team.

I don’t believe ISU was being inefficient when Stolbova/Klimov and Stepanova/Bukin were able to attend Europeans and worlds. I think the reality is thee was no proof of any wrongdoing against them, and ISU couldn’t afford to ban skaters without a reason.
 

angi

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Look, I have no reason to love Russians, they occupied my country and we were forcefully taught Russian language at school, watching Russians films on Tv and going through other forms of Russian brainwashing. Nevertheless, what happened with banning skaters without having any reason, not being able to provide any proof against them and making it not transparent, that’s sick. That’s bending the rules to cheat, I am sorry to say that. Whether Canada would win the gold, well, we will never know, will we? Because someone felt that Russia had too many decent pairs and dancers and did their best to weaken their team.

I don’t believe ISU was being inefficient when Stolbova/Klimov and Stepanova/Bukin were able to attend Europeans and worlds. I think the reality is thee was no proof of any wrongdoing against them, and ISU couldn’t afford to ban skaters without a reason.
It has nothing to do with loving Russians though. I love many Russian skaters, some of them are my fave, and even those who aren't my favorite skaters always have something to admire. I agree that the banning process should have been more transparent, especially in Bukin's case since he hasn't competed at Sochi (Stolobova was rumored to be involved in the Sochi doping scandal way before the ban) but at the same time, I think after reading much about the issue that the ban was a result of punishing athletes for their involvement in Russia's institutional doping mechanism and I'm fine with the banning, not with the lack of transparency. But you are insisting on making it some skating-related conspiracy when in reality it wasn't top teams that were banned and the banning happened throughout every type of Olympic winter sports and never singled out skating. If they were banning Medvedeva/Zagitova maybe you had some evidence for your claim, but to base this honestly preposterous claim on two teams that weren't a threat, were never going to medal, and had little to no impact on the team event (S/B weren't going to be part of it, and if S/K would have been there they would have gotten Russian 1-2 more points at best case scenario which wouldn't have made any difference for the final results) is ignoring simple math imo.
 

hanca

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It has nothing to do with loving Russians though. I love many Russian skaters, some of them are my fave, and even those who aren't my favorite skaters always have something to admire. I agree that the banning process should have been more transparent, especially in Bukin's case since he hasn't competed at Sochi (Stolobova was rumored to be involved in the Sochi doping scandal way before the ban) but at the same time, I think after reading much about the issue that the ban was a result of punishing athletes for their involvement in Russia's institutional doping mechanism and I'm fine with the banning, not with the lack of transparency. But you are insisting on making it some skating-related conspiracy when in reality it wasn't top teams that were banned and the banning happened throughout every type of Olympic winter sports and never singled out skating. If they were banning Medvedeva/Zagitova maybe you had some evidence for your claim, but to base this honestly preposterous claim on two teams that weren't a threat, were never going to medal, and had little to no impact on the team event (S/B weren't going to be part of it, and if S/K would have been there they would have gotten Russian 1-2 more points at best case scenario which wouldn't have made any difference for the final results) is ignoring simple math imo.
They were the top teams. Russian number 2 in ice dance and in pairs. Those two teams were not threat? Of course they were. You never know in advance who will deliver and who will fail. The same way as Sarah Hughes wasn’t any threat (she was only US number 3 lady) and suddenly she won. Or Stolbova/Klimov not being any threat in Sochi and suddenly skating clean and getting silver... And the fact that they (in your view) are not a threat is surely not good enough justification why it is ok to be banned. Say whatever you want to, but I really believe that someone with enough political power made sure that Russian team was weakened. And no, I don’t think they could ban Medvedeva or Zagitova. Firstly, they would have to ban both if they wanted to prevent Russia getting the gold in ladies, but more importantly, I think Russia would withdraw their team if someone tried to ban their biggest hope for gold.
 
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tony

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What I want to know is how Canada cheated their way to the gold when it was obvious Zagitova and Medvedeva would both compete in the team event, and the top 2 pairs from Nationals/GPF were assigned?

I’m completely 🤨 of some Canadian athlete results from about 1996 until 2003, but give me a break on this one.
 

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