Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

[giselle23]

For anything not in the public domain, ie less than 70 years old, they would do. By your logic all recordings by classical musicians would be fair game.
Licensing companies make sense for some artists but not others. Nobody is forced to put their music out the there for public use. Sometimes artists can make more money by distributing their music independently which is their right. If the band has chosen that path it would explain the multiple lawsuits.
It really bugs me that artists are considered annoying for asking for their dues.
And skaters should really think about the license of any music they plan on using. I can only imagine if a musician used youtube footage of skaters for one of their clips... The reaction would be quite different.

Why do inventors of patents for life-saving medicines and other innovations only get 20 years of protection while artists get 70 years and sometimes more? The royalties often benefit their heirs, who had nothing to do with the original creative effort.

 

[MacMadame]

The Aminals recorded/released House of the Rising Sun in 1964 (58 years)

And they own the copyright to their version. But they recorded a song that was in the public domain. They didn't create House of the Rising Sun. So anyone else can do a recording of it, if they want to. And their performance is also copyrighted to them. But not the song.

Elton John congratulates Nathan Chen for skating to his music at the Olympics. This obscure music group fiies suit because skaters did them the favor of featuring their music at the Olympics.

Elton John is rich and famous. Plus I'm pretty sure his music is part of a licensing agreement so he gets some pennies from it playing in rinks and arenas.

My question for this group is: did they try to talk to K/F or NBC first or did they jump right to suing? It sounds like they jumped right to suing and I don't approve of that. All it does is make lawyers rich; it doesn't solve any problems.

Anyway, K/F can skate to last year's program at Worlds and then never skate to this music again and they will be fine. And NBC has tons and lawyers and will make sure their interests are served. So I think it will all work out without hurting K/F.

 

[Steph]

This could explain why NBC Sports took down all of it’s Olympic skating videos.

Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

Heavy Young Heathens allege they were not contacted about the use of their music during the team figure skating competition at the Beijing Olympics.

www.usatoday.com

"Mick Marderosian, the group's attorney and father"

Perhaps within their rights (I know little about US copyright law) but definitely douchebro territory here.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Okay, that cracked me up. The average person has no idea how copyright protection works, doesn't care, let alone cares about improving copyright legislation. You can tell that by looking at all these people on the internet ripping off other artists right and left and calling it "fair use"!

Delighted to provide a little levity! And yes, I'm quite aware that the average person knows nothing about copyright law. Here in Canada, my colleagues who fight for copyright reform for writers and artists use language that no one but bureaucrats & lawyers can grasp (and even then maybe not). I keep insisting that we should use lingo that regular folks can understand, but no one ever listens to me. If they did,"voidiness" would be the number one Ice Dance component score.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If I was a musician, I would give the skaters my blessing and say thanks for the exposure.

 

[DreamSkates]

Looked at their website, they seem like exactly the kind of douchhebros that I was expecting. Also, earning $$$ for composing TV & movie music hardly qualifies as "indie."

Not to mention it’s not their song.

And why shouldn't they? Thanks for posting the links.

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

It’s actually Bob Dylan’s song. So how much are they paying Dylan.?

 

[overedge]

I don't agree with the "exposure" perspective. Given how sh*tty the ISU is about accurately identifying skaters' music - how many times have we seen program music listed as "medley"? - in many cases it would be next to impossible to identify who the composer or performer really was.

And seriously, how likely is it that someone is going to be watching a figure skating broadcast and say, hey, I love that performance, I must hire that musician to collaborate with me or to write the background for my company's next commercial, etc. etc. etc.?

As one of my friends says when he gets asked to do work for "exposure", "If I wasn't already exposed, you wouldn't have known about me."

 

[emason]

Back in 1992 Eliot Feld used Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs for Evensong, a ballet he was choreographing for his company's performances at the Joyce Theater here in NY. There were already several well-known dance pieces that used this music, so Feld never thought rights would be an issue. A friend and I went to opening night; before the curtain rose an announcement was made - the dancers would perform without music. Feld had left it to about 2 weeks before the performance to contact the Strauss estate only to discover that Strauss' grandson, who controlled the rights, didn't like this music used for ballet and no, Mr. Feld, I am not granting you the rights. Bottom line: someone always needs to check, one can't just assume. (I remember nothing about the performance, just the controversy surrounding it. LOL)

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

If I was a musician, I would give the skaters my blessing and say thanks for the exposure.

But this is what's caused some of my singer/musician friends to get out of the biz. It's all "exposure" with no path to actually making any money.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I don’t understand why they would be suing the skaters at all when the skaters would never have to pay licensing rights for the music because it falls under fair use. The only time you would have to pay to use the music as if it is broadcast so it seems to me like suing Alexa and Brandon does in fact fall right under the category of troll.

Suing NBC if they failed to acquire the rights seem fair. The skaters don’t need the rights. On what grounds would they be sued?

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I don’t understand how they can be suing the skaters at all when the skeeters would never have to pay licensing rights for the music because it falls under fair use. The only time you would have to pay to use the music as if it is broadcast so it seems to me like suing Alexa and Brandon does in fact fall right under the category of troll. Suing NBC if they failed to acquire the rights seem fair. The skaters don’t need the rights. On what grounds would they be sued?

This is not "fair use" at all. There are blanket licensing programs for using works during public performances that would cover most song usage. But some artists may not have their works enrolled in those blanket programs and require individual rights payments instead.

 

[tony]

Please. not the "exposure" argument. Given how sh*tty the ISU is about accurately identifying skaters' music - how many times have we seen program music listed as "medley"? - in many cases it would be next to impossible to identify who the composer or performer really was.

You mean given how shitty the skaters’ teams are at actually knowing what they are skating to? It’s not the job of the ISU to Shazam every single piece and verify. They go by what the skater(s) provide for their bios.

 

[hlp728]

If K/F hadn’t the issue with missing Nationals and the no medal and ceremony at the Olympics due to the doping controversy along with the media picking up the story of right as the pairs competition started, then I wouldn’t be be annoyed at these musicians or their dad lawyer. I totally understand the musicians wanting to be paid for their work.

Maybe K/F could use the song “Kara Remembers” from Battlestar Galactica to replace this song they’re getting sued for.

 

[Wyliefan]

There's a saying among writers (and probably artists too): You can die of exposure.

 

[Justlooking]

I don't agree with the "exposure" perspective. Given how sh*tty the ISU is about accurately identifying skaters' music - how many times have we seen program music listed as "medley"? - in many cases it would be next to impossible to identify who the composer or performer really was.

And seriously, how likely is it that someone is going to be watching a figure skating broadcast and say, hey, I love that performance, I must hire that musician to collaborate with me or to write the background for my company's next commercial, etc. etc. etc.?

As one of my friends says when he gets asked to do work for "exposure", "If I wasn't already exposed, you wouldn't have known about me."

Hmm, it happens when it's original music ( not the umpteenth cover of an old folk song), lie for example A beautiful storm by Jennifer Thomas
Just two extracts from the description of the video above

Just updating this description, as a lot of recent traffic has found their way here because of Rika Kihira. THANK YOU all for the amazing kindness, and beautiful words for my music. I'm so honored by the recent attention "A Beautiful Storm" has received in Japan with the champion ice skater, Rika Kihira.

and ...

JAPAN SPECIAL RELEASE: As of March 2019, there will also be yet a 3rd version of this song released by my Japanese label, Avex Entertainment, on the "Key of Sea - Special Japan Edition" PHYSICAL release of the album (in stores March 20, 2019). This 3rd version will be a special Japan-only solo piano rendition of the song, and some additional changes were added to the song to make it a bit different as well.

Do you think there would have been a japanese release without Rika Kihira ?

 

[overedge]

Hmm, it happens when it's original music ( not the umpteenth cover of an old folk song), lie for example A beautiful storm by Jennifer Thomas
Just two extracts from the description of the video above



and ...



Do you think there would have been a japanese release without Rika Kihira ?

That's one artist, and a release in one country - a country where figure skating is a relatively popular sport. That's likely not representative of the experience of many artists whose music has been used in skating programs every year.

This is kind of like the "Justin Bieber got discovered on YouTube" argument. For every Justin Bieber there are, I'd guess, hundreds of thousands of artists posting stuff on YouTube that never get noticed.

 

[MacMadame]

Not to mention it’s not their song.

It’s actually Bob Dylan’s song. So how much are they paying Dylan.?

House of the Rising Sun is absolutely not a Bob Dylan song. It's a traditional folk song that has been around since before Dylan was even born. It got cataloged for the first time in the 1930s (as far as I can tell) but had been around even before that.

 

[Aussie Willy]

But this is what's caused some of my singer/musician friends to get out of the biz. It's all "exposure" with no path to actually making any money.

That is why these days a main source of income for musicians is live performance because streaming has severely impacted on the ability to earn from music sales. Unless you have a good deal with one of the streaming services.

If you think that being a musician is going to make you money unless you are one of the big ones, you are not living in reality.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

That is why these days a main source of income for musicians is live performance because streaming has severely impacted on the ability to earn from music sales. Unless you have a good deal with one of the streaming services.

If you think that being a musician is going to make you money unless you are one of the big ones, you are not living in reality.

This is a topic for PI but that's why some of us advocate for Universal Basic Income for artists - the awesome people who helped us survive the world-wide crud stuff

 

[misskarne]

I'm guessing that Alexa and Brandon, and their coaches, made the understandable assumption that the music was covered under the usual licensing agreements - or perhaps made an error when looking it up; I mean, House of the Rising Sun has several dozen covers out there of varying quality, they might have thought they found it on a list and mistaken it for another band's cover. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt there.

I'm all for artists getting proper royalties for use of their music, and that's why skating has the setup that it does to cover the skaters with the licensing agreements at rinks and broadcasters.

But between dad the lawyer, the previous multiple suits, and this only coming out at the Olympics...well, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

 

[AduCarr]

I don't agree with the "exposure" perspective. Given how sh*tty the ISU is about accurately identifying skaters' music - how many times have we seen program music listed as "medley"? - in many cases it would be next to impossible to identify who the composer or performer really was.

And seriously, how likely is it that someone is going to be watching a figure skating broadcast and say, hey, I love that performance, I must hire that musician to collaborate with me or to write the background for my company's next commercial, etc. etc. etc.?

As one of my friends says when he gets asked to do work for "exposure", "If I wasn't already exposed, you wouldn't have known about me."

I must say I have actually bought tons of music/songs as soon as I watched a program which music I really enjoyed. For instance, the song that Allison Reed and her partner use this season for their rhythm dance. I heard it, I liked it, I bought it. Exposure does work!

 

[Sylvia]

Kevin Reynolds' Instagram message (since deleted) back in October 2018:

Hi everyone, I have a bit of unfortunate news to share: as a result of an ongoing dispute with one of the shared rightsholders of the music, I have been forced to abandon my free skate to Ni no Kuni [by Joe Hisaishi].
I apologize to the many fans who were looking forward to seeing it at the upcoming NHK trophy in Hiroshima. The timing of this is extremely distressing, but I will do the very best that I can in the limited time I have before the event to prepare an alternate free skating program.

2 informational posts from that music copyright thread I started:

https://victorysportsnews.com/articles/4441/original
Here is an interview with Keiichi Yano who is the music editor of Hanyu's Hope & Legacy as well as SEIMEI. The music editor is a very well known person in this sport in Japan. According to him, Joe Hisaishi doesn't like his multiple musics to be edited/combined into one piece since every music has its own concept. Thus the editor and team Hanyu had to try hard to get an exceptional permission from Hisaishi so that Hanyu can use two musics of Hisaishi's in his Hope & Legacy program. Prior to Hanyu's case, it was well known that Takahiko Kozuka couldn't get a permission to use Studio Gibri's original source of the musics (composed by Hisaishi) and Kozuka had to re-record musics by himself when he skated to Fantasia for Nausicaa.

BTW, the interview with Keiichi Yano is a very interesting one talking about the history of music editions in this sport in Japan.

Here is another interview. It's with Joe Hisaishi and it's on JASRAC official site. He says he wants to respect Japanese law even when he works with people outside of Japan.
http://www.jasrac.or.jp/sakka/vol_21/inner3.html

ETA:
Article about Hisaishi's concept for Hope & Legacy (original music), it's on the lower half of the page.
https://hibikihajime.com/information/21798/

I don't have a problem with Joe Hisaishi—or any person who makes creative content—turning down requests for usage. It's no different than when I've said no to show offers, or which platforms (if any) to stream my music on. I've had to get my lawyer to send C&Ds to people who have stolen my photographs. Copyright/IP allows me to have the agency to control my work and how I want it to be shown.

I should clarify that I'm not a lawyer, but as a musician and someone who has spent 15+ years being involved with radio, I'm pretty well versed in the particulars of copyright and music licensing here in the US. Hopefully my perspective helps other folks understanding, that's all. If any of these terms are unclear, please let me know, happy to clarify. A couple quick notes:

• Using a cover doesn't make it any easier for a competitor; the choice to use a cover is most likely driven by an aesthetic decision. Perhaps you like the message of, say, AC/DC's "It's a Long Way to the Top," but the arrangement isn't going to serve your needs, so you find a softer arrangement.
• Still, the material that is being covered is still owned by the rightsholder. Technically if you are recording a cover, you still need to obtain clearance from the copyright owner of that material (unless it is in the public domain). 75 countries, excluding the US, pay royalties on the public performance of the cover (in addition to the songwriter/composer/publisher), for those keeping score.
• In the US, this where those blanket licenses from ASCAP/BMI come in handy, as there would be no other way to collect royalties for public performance (though it would only be the s/c/p who benefits; there is a bill floating around the House to introduce public performance royalties for even people covering other people's material).
• Stuff being thrown up on YT isn't suddenly free from copyright and licensing restrictions. YT has a Content ID system that allows them to track/collect royalties, as well as allow artists/rightsholders control over stuff on their platform. On top of this, you have the added complexity of resharing broadcast content that may be restricted by their own licensing/usage rights.

Anywhow, I find this whole thing with Reynolds fascinating because it's not clear what the solution should be. Skate a new program? Reuse an old one? Withdraw entirely? And looking at the bigger picture, what does this mean moving forward for skaters—how well-versed should a skater's coaching/choreography team be in the particulars of copyright/IP? Should skaters start getting sync agreements (what tv/film/commercials use) to clear their material?

 

[manhn]

Why am I supposed to feel sorry for musicians? As if being a competitive figure skater is a lucrative field.

 

[MacMadame]

Why am I supposed to feel sorry for musicians? As if being a competitive figure skater is a lucrative field.

Can't you feel sorry for both?

Anyone in an artistic field has to deal with people not respecting their work and only a few at the top making any kind of money. And skaters have to deal with being an athlete in a sport with little money have it hard too.

 

[manhn]

When you are suing someone, no, I can’t feel sorry for both.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

This is not "fair use" at all. There are blanket licensing programs for using works during public performances that would cover most song usage. But some artists may not have their works enrolled in those blanket programs and require individual rights payments instead.

The article explaining how this works specifically says that the broadcaster has to pay the licensing. Meaning that there is not licensing unless it is broadcast. Alexa and Brandon don’t have a financial responsibility here. How can they be the subject of a lawsuit?

Do Olympic Figure Skaters Have to License the Music They Skate To?

Nathan Chen won gold against a backdrop of Elton John songs. But who shelled out for the music license?

www.mentalfloss.com

I believe the venues also have to pay for music they play? But again, there’s no situation where Alexa and Brandon are the responsible party. Which, frankly, would be lucky for this artist because you never sue anyone who doesn’t have any money.

How Do Musical Artists Get Paid When Skaters Use Their Songs at the Olympics? - IPWatchdog.com | Patents & Intellectual Property Law

After the Sochi games in 2014, the International Skating Union (ISU) decided to shake things up and began allowing skating to music with lyrics. Pleasing Generation Z and millennial skaters was not the main goal of the rule change; rather, the ISU wanted to appeal to younger audiences who tune...

www.ipwatchdog.com

 

[MacMadame]

How can they be the subject of a lawsuit?

That is a different issue than whether or not this is fair use. It's not fair use at all because they aren't using brief excerpts for criticism, news reporting, teaching, research or things like that. It's a large excerpt for the purpose of competition.

I suspect the reason they are included in the lawsuit is because of some picky lawyer thing that makes no sense to the layperson. Like when I was sued for a million dollars because of a car accident I was in, the lawsuit included the person I hit and his wife. Who was not even there. But my lawyer explained that this was normal for various reasons that made sense legally.

When you are suing someone, no, I can’t feel sorry for both.

So you can't feel sorry for musicians in general because one particular group is suing someone?

 

[Jarrett]

I don’t understand why they would be suing the skaters at all when the skaters would never have to pay licensing rights for the music because it falls under fair use. The only time you would have to pay to use the music as if it is broadcast so it seems to me like suing Alexa and Brandon does in fact fall right under the category of troll.

Suing NBC if they failed to acquire the rights seem fair. The skaters don’t need the rights. On what grounds would they be sued?

I assume because they want them to stop skating to their recording of the song.

 

[Jarrett]

And they own the copyright to their version. But they recorded a song that was in the public domain. They didn't create House of the Rising Sun. So anyone else can do a recording of it, if they want to. And their performance is also copyrighted to them. But not the song.

Elton John is rich and famous. Plus I'm pretty sure his music is part of a licensing agreement so he gets some pennies from it playing in rinks and arenas.

My question for this group is: did they try to talk to K/F or NBC first or did they jump right to suing? It sounds like they jumped right to suing and I don't approve of that. All it does is make lawyers rich; it doesn't solve any problems.

Anyway, K/F can skate to last year's program at Worlds and then never skate to this music again and they will be fine. And NBC has tons and lawyers and will make sure their interests are served. So I think it will all work out without hurting K/F.

The articles I have read said that K/F agent blew them off or didn't take them seriously.

 

[millyskate]

Of course one can feel sorry for both. It's like when landlords, who are placed in a financially difficult situation, are forced to sue tenants who aren't paying the rent because they've hit hard times.
In this case we don't yet know whether the music is covered by normal licensing or not, but I find it a bizarre concept for performers of any kind to consider they are entitled to use the music of their choice. Copyright exists for a reason. One can't just wake up and decide "I want this music". One has to check it's available for use.

Since music copyright is a common conversation topic amongst choreographers / performing athletes I'm surprised the situation has occurred. To me the article sounded like the skaters/their lawyer were contacted but they refused to listen / do anything about it and just ploughed on.

Often people don't get it. I remember a leotard brand using some of my photography to advertise their products and I tried to contact them but they completely ignored me. It wasn't until my editor publicly challenged them on social media that they took down the images. Unfortunately people who feel entitled to use other people's work rarely respond to polite conversation, they think, clearly like many in this thread, that everyone's work is theirs because "it's on the internet". Often the athletes themselves would use the images without any credit which I accepted, but found it very annoying when they used them to promote their sponsored brands on social media. It was breaking my accreditation agreements to start with.
I guess my personal experience is admittedly giving me a bias towards believing the musicians rather than the skaters, as it all sounds too familiar.
I also imagine that that having performances on youtube nowadays creates a problem that exists in a big legal void. I wouldn't be surprised if the copyright laws were intended for circumstances where the skaters' music was broadcast on TV, maybe once or twice, and the licenses paid accordingly. Not put up on youtube or streaming services for people to watch over and over again.