Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

[Karen-W]

When? Because if it was in 2018, wouldn't someone know this when KniFra announced they were using it?

I'm not sure anyone in the USFS would have recalled that.

Although the good news is maybe now USFSA ISU will nix any programs to this particular cover and we'll all be saved

fixed that - this can be the excuse the ISU needs to find some way to nix all of the terrible covers we get of perfectly good songs, especially in pairs.

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

When I saw the contact option, I had to restrain myself from sending them an irate message.

You know, the name of the group is suspiciously similar to that of the Fine Young Cannibals of days past. Do we think the FYC should sue for infringement?

 

[MacMadame]

Perhaps I'm wrong. I saw reference to this elsewhere in the forum.

I wonder how we could find out.

 

[VGThuy]

Didn’t a top German pair use the same music (same recording) as their free program not so long ago? It’s not as if K/F are the first to skate to this.

Don’t give them more people to sue! Unless they were sued already.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

They are a copyright trolls. Similar to patent trolls, they acquire rights to something then hunt down anyone who doesn’t go through them to license. I doubt USFS or the ISU even knew these guys existed. They may have picked on the wrong violation though.

As someone who has done some advocacy around copyright protection/reforms for indie artists and writers, I loathe copyright trolls like these two who makes things $h*tty for everyone.

 

[manhn]

I hope the skaters do not have to pay for the legal fees, either NBC or USFSA will cover them.

 

[SidelineSkater]

Hase/Seegert used it for two seasons. So…someone was asleep for awhile.

And K/F skated at SKAM in October.

 

[ilovesalchows]

Sounds like they just want to latch on to the cash cow that is US pairs skating.

 

[millyskate]

Ice rinks, NBC and USFS have agreements with ASCAP and BMI to play music for live performances. It does get trickier and costlier with replays on TV or You Tube or other streaming.

This article explains it well:

Do Olympic Figure Skaters Have to License the Music They Skate To?

Nathan Chen won gold against a backdrop of Elton John songs. But who shelled out for the music license?

www.mentalfloss.com

Maybe they are not part of those agreements and think there is a payday coming?

And why shouldn't they? Thanks for posting the links.

My guess is they smell money and name recognition and fame

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

 

[Rukia]

Sounds like they just want to latch on to the cash cow that is US pairs skating.

USFSA wish they could find that cash cow in US pairs skating as well but alas

 

[Karen-W]

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

Because German and US pairs teams are swimming in profit from using your music? Sure, they'd maybe have a point if this was a Russian pairs team using their music but, clearly, they know nothing about figure skating if they think any of the teams that have used their cover version of a well-known song are in this for anything other than pure love of sport.

 

[millyskate]

Because German and US pairs teams are swimming in profit from using your music? Sure, they'd maybe have a point if this was a Russian pairs team using their music but, clearly, they know nothing about figure skating if they think any of the teams that have used their cover version of a well-known song are in this for anything other than pure love of sport.

You're entirely missing the point. It's not about the pairs making money although they might have made a little.

Musicians and artists need to eat. It's a horrible part of any musician's job to constantly have to chase for compensation regarding illicit use of one's music. Just like I hated having to chase people stealing my photos for their own websites or even for advertising leotard or equipment brands.

We live in a world where people feel entitled to just use what is online for their own purposes but you can't. Playing music needs a license. In gymnastics some feds (like the USA) pay licenses so gymnasts can use Disney music, smaller feds cannot.
In skating the licenses are venue-based but it's unsure if that covers all artists. Replays absolutely cause problems.

 

[Karen-W]

You're entirely missing the point. It's not about the pairs making money although they might have made a little.

Musicians and artists need to eat. It's a horrible part of any musician's job to constantly have to chase for compensation regarding illicit use of one's music. Just like I hated having to chase people stealing my photos for their own websites or even for advertising leotard or equipment brands.

We live in a world where people feel entitled to just use what is online for their own purposes but you can't. Playing music needs a license. In gymnastics some feds (like the USA) pay licenses so gymnasts can use Disney music, smaller feds cannot.
In skating the licenses are venue-based but it's unsure if that covers all artists. Replays absolutely cause problems.

No, I get all that and I've had to do my due diligence to ensure right of use for graphics/etc for the youth group I worked with in the past. But, I also think that these particular artists are wasting their time going after the little fish and, frankly, missing the bigger picture, which is the exposure they get from people who hear their music in a figure skating program and seek out more of their work.

 

[millyskate]

No, I get all that and I've had to do my due diligence to ensure right of use for graphics/etc for the youth group I worked with in the past. But, I also think that these particular artists are wasting their time going after the little fish and, frankly, missing the bigger picture, which is the exposure they get from people who hear their music in a figure skating program and seek out more of their work.

Exposure https://www.pinterest.com/pin/16395986134582590/
That's literally the word artists hate the most. You do not live off exposure, much less exposure of a US pair skating their short program to your music.
And if artists waited for "big fish", whatever that means, they would die. No here, it seems that K/F just didn't do their homework. As for expressing surprise the musicians hadn't picked up on the German pair... There are organisations and software dedicated to tracking music use but it should come as no surprise they missed the German pair in a non-olympic season.

 

[MacMadame]

And why shouldn't they? Thanks for posting the links.

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

They will get paid. ASCAP and BMI collect money and then pass it down to the artists.

The only way this group has a case is if they had removed their music from what the ASCAP/BMI fee covers. If they haven't, then they don't have a case. Or, if they didn't get their money, their case is with ASCAP and/or BMI, not with the groups that have paid a licensing fee.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Exposure https://www.pinterest.com/pin/16395986134582590/
That's literally the word artists hate the most. You do not live off exposure, much less exposure of a US pair skating their short program to your music.
And if artists waited for "big fish", whatever that means, they would die. No here, it seems that K/F just didn't do their homework. As for expressing surprise the musicians hadn't picked up on the German pair... There are organisations and software dedicated to tracking music use but it should come as no surprise they missed the German pair in a non-olympic season.

This is very, very true. However, as someone who still needs to compose my official takedown letter to the "Open Library" for violation of my copyright, I don't much like rich copyright trolls who muddy the legal waters, either.

 

[millyskate]

They will get paid. ASCAP and BMI collect money and then pass it down to the artists.

The only way this group has a case is if they had removed their music from what the ASCAP/BMI fee covers. If they haven't, then they don't have a case. Or, if they didn't get their money, their case is with ASCAP and/or BMI, not with the groups that have paid a licensing fee.

Agreed - I just presumed their music wasn't covered as I imagine they wouldn't sue if it was.
There are often cases of skaters / gymnasts not being able to use the music of their choice due to licensing issues, in fact licensing is one of the reasons we hear limited music selections.

I'm not sure why this particular band is considered a licensing troll - recordings of an existing piece of music in the public domain are in themselves subject to copyright. My musician friends are constantly getting their recordings taken down because YouTube or Facebook's software has mistakenly considered their interpretation to be by Joshua Bell or Daniel Barenboim. The fact that Bell or Barenboim were playing Beethoven is irrelevant - the interpretation itself is copyrighted. And it's then on each musician to take up the case with Facebook etc and prove that they indeed were playing rather than the copyrighted performance.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Agreed - I just presumed their music wasn't covered as I imagine they wouldn't sue if it was.
There are often cases of skaters / gymnasts not being able to use the music of their choice due to licensing issues, in fact licensing is one of the reasons we hear limited music selections.

I'm not sure why this particular band is considered a licensing troll - recordings of an existing piece of music in the public domain are in themselves subject to copyright. My musician friends are constantly getting their recordings taken down because YouTube or Facebook's software has mistakenly considered their interpretation to be by Joshua Bell or Daniel Barenboim. The fact that Bell or Barenboim were playing Beethoven is irrelevant - the interpretation itself is copyrighted. And it's then on each musician to take up the case with Facebook etc and prove that they indeed were playing rather than the copyrighted performance.

It's very likely they are not trolls at all and are 100% right to sue. I admit to taking an instance dislike to them based on how they look in promo photos. However, the way they are proceeding isn't conducive to getting the average person onboard with improving copyright protection legislation.

 

[misskarne]

I imagine many are calling them licensing or copyright trolls because several articles have reported that they have done this many, many times before and keep seeking settlements.

 

[once_upon]

And why shouldn't they? Thanks for posting the links.

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

Did they pay for the rights to do a cover of House of the Rising Sun?

Original music I get. Covers I don't.

If they aren't getting paid through the various licensing companies one has to ask why.

 

[millyskate]

Did they pay for the rights to do a cover of House of the Rising Sun?

Original music I get. Covers I don't.

If they aren't getting paid through the various licensing companies one has to ask why.

For anything not in the public domain, ie less than 70 years old, they would do. By your logic all recordings by classical musicians would be fair game.
Licensing companies make sense for some artists but not others. Nobody is forced to put their music out the there for public use. Sometimes artists can make more money by distributing their music independently which is their right. If the band has chosen that path it would explain the multiple lawsuits.
It really bugs me that artists are considered annoying for asking for their dues.
And skaters should really think about the license of any music they plan on using. I can only imagine if a musician used youtube footage of skaters for one of their clips... The reaction would be quite different.

 

[VGThuy]

I’m totally on board with @millyskate’s posts here and am kind of surprised at the dismissive attitude some have displayed about an artist seeking compensation for their work even if they do it multiple times.

 

[Aceon6]

I’m totally on board with @millyskate’s posts here and am kind of surprised at the dismissive attitude some have displayed about an artist seeking compensation for their work even if they do it multiple times.

I still think it’s shady. I think the choice of not listing with ASCAP/BMI is deliberate.

 

[Frau Muller]

Ah, remember the simple times when everybody skated to classical music? Or did Tchaikovsky’s heirs seek royalties?

Then came variety with stage-show tunes or film soundtracks…was it Frau Muller & her skaters who brought the show-tunes? Thinking Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, in the early ‘70s for Sonja Morgenstern. Were royalties paid to the show’s composers???

 

[jamesy]

That cover was pretty awful. Can I also sue them for using it?

 

[millyskate]

I still think it’s shady. I think the choice of not listing with ASCAP/BMI is deliberate.

Sigh, of course it would be deliberate. And legitimate. They might have decided that in their particular case they wouldn't make their music available to play in licensed venues and instead seek individual agreements for use.
It is on the person using the music to check license agreements ahead of time and most people do it, from local theatre groups to churches etc
There are lots of songs one just knows are off limits.

I don't know if this bands' songs are covered by the relevant licenses. But there's also a lot of upset in the music world because artists are not getting any meaningful compensation from streaming and they may be making the point that they don't want the song played online if it brings them no revenue. That's a more tenuous but still understandable position IMO.

Artists can't win: either they stand up for themselves the get the compensation they deserve and get called petty or they roll over and give away their work for free. It's not ok IMO.

 

[MacMadame]

It's very likely they are not trolls at all and are 100% right to sue. I admit to taking an instance dislike to them based on how they look in promo photos. However, the way they are proceeding isn't conducive to getting the average person onboard with improving copyright protection legislation.

Okay, that cracked me up. The average person has no idea how copyright protection works, doesn't care, let alone cares about improving copyright legislation. You can tell that by looking at all these people on the internet ripping off other artists right and left and calling it "fair use"!

Copyright is a mess IME. Every country has its own rules, a lot of the rules are hard to understand and have very gray areas, and in the US anyway, have been designed by rich people and corporations to serve their interests.

That's why you can have a copyright on something so long that it continues well after your death so that corporations and the estates can continue to make money. Disney, of course, thinks this is completely reasonable but that wasn't the original idea behind copyright which was to protect the original artists during their lifetime.

If they aren't getting paid through the various licensing companies one has to ask why.

Two possibilities: (1) they release their music in a way that it isn't covered or (2) the various licensing people are ripping them off.

I had assumed they were covered by BMI/ASCAP because someone said they were copyright trolls. But maybe they aren't and are going their own way because the music industry sucks.

I still think it’s shady. I think the choice of not listing with ASCAP/BMI is deliberate.

To add to what @millyskate said:

The music industry is notorious for ripping off artists. If you want to make money, you need to tour and sell merch because you get pennies for your work from publishing companies.

It's also undergoing lots of changes what with streaming services and more people releasing their music outside of record company deals. With all this upheaval, it's hard to know what the best path forward is for a particular artist.

OTOH, I disagree with @millyskate about skaters licensing their music always. Most of the time, it's covered by the BMI/ASCAP licenses and it's not like skaters are rolling in money. If it's covered, they shouldn't have to pay extra. It's not on them to reform the music industry.

The most I think should change is if you are a skater whose skating will be shown on TV, their home network should check if it's licensed and report back to the skater if it's not. So basically anyone on the GP circuit in the Fall and then anyone who makes Nationals later on.

 

[once_upon]

For anything not in the public domain, ie less than 70 years old, they would do.

The Aminals recorded/released House of the Rising Sun in 1964 (58 years)

I am also aware of someone who was heavily fined for using copyrighted materials. I also know that our church pays several significant annual fees for song access. My husband also produced a software product many years ago that we had to watch for infringements.

I get why artists need to protect their products. I'm not really objecting to that.

My objection to this group threatening to sue NBC and the US skaters, is that they either were not aware of use by other skaters for two years (which falls on them) or felt that NBC had deep pockets to be willing to pay.

Obviously we won't come to any agreement.

 

[giselle23]

Elton John congratulates Nathan Chen for skating to his music at the Olympics. This obscure music group fiies suit because skaters did them the favor of featuring their music at the Olympics.

 

[giselle23]

Ah, remember the simple times when everybody skated to classical music? Or did Tchaikovsky’s heirs seek royalties?

Then came variety with stage-show tunes or film soundtracks…was it Frau Muller & her skaters who brought the show-tunes? Thinking Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, in the early ‘70s for Sonja Mongenstern. Were royalties paid to the show’s composers???

This is really not relevant to this issue, but Rachmaninoff's heirs sued the composer of All By Myself and settled for a percentage of the royalties to that song. The music (Rach 2) was in the public domain in the U.S. but not in other countries.