Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

[MacMadame]

That's very cool. A close friend of mine had his band's song featured on One Tree Hill and they made 36 dollars from it. (not $36 each, it was split 3 ways)

Which goes back to what people were saying at the start of the thread... it's hard for bands to make money. People seem to want artists to do to their work for free. Or "exposure" which is about the same thing.

 

[stjeaskategym]

The graphics at competitions frequently don't exactly match what is in the bios. I notice this because I have the bios up on my computer screen while people are competing. The organizers seem to take the info there and edit it to fit in their graphics.

I really don't see what the issue is. I mean I know some people speculated that the band got mad because they weren't listed but I'd be surprised if that was the case.

It's listed right in the lawsuit that the band was upset that they weren't listed in the graphic during K/F's SP. They're blaming NBC, when NBC didn't make the graphics (although they did modify them on occasion). Whoever is in charge of the worldwide stream is who initially forgot to list the band in the graphic.

Sync licenses have the potential to be more profitable than old-fashioned licensing and are becoming popular among indie artists trying to control their own work (and not starve). But they are trickier than just listing with one or more of the licensing groups and accepting whatever checks they send you. Having a father who is a lawyer would be very helpful and might have tipped them over to doing sync licenses. Or not. They may have done it anyway for the same reasons other artists do it. But having a lawyer in the family is definitely a bonus.

I see. So more than one band must be using these sync licenses. Yet this is the only song that has ever resulted in figure skaters (more than one pair team) getting sued, to my knowledge anyway. Seems strange.

Excerpt from an article:

"Fortunately for NBC, the Olympics qualify as a live event, so no synchronization licenses were required. NBC paid the blanket fee and a separate royalty for each performance of a song. This, more than any other factor, may explain how the Beatles, Beyoncé, Oasis, and other artists could be heard at the Olympics. If NBC had had to pay synchronization fees, it might have been prohibitively expensive. The cost of synchronization licenses for Beatles music, for example, runs into six figures.

This is not to say that the artists are left empty-handed. Eventually their portions of the blanket fee and royalty payments will reach them through the performing rights organizations (such as BMI or ASCAP) they use to license their musical works. A greater benefit of an artist music being used in the competition is exposure to 19.8 million viewers—the number of people who watched the 2018 winter Olympic games. That kind of exposure is almost impossible to buy. Data from Amazon.com showed that some half dozen songs featured at the Pyeongchang games became much more popular among its users who stream music, which would also increase royalty revenue for the artists."

___

It seems this music licensing issue is mainly NBC's. It feels really unnecessary to bother skaters with this and try to track them down during the Olympics. Suing them during the Olympics after their agent didn't immediately solve the problem feels even more unnecessary. An unfortunate distraction right before K/F's Olympic SP- to this very song. I like K/F's use of this song and hope they get to use it for Worlds just because it's easier that way, but if they have to use a different song or program, that's cool too. Don't let these Heavy Young whatevers get to you.

 

[Karina1974]

The Aminals recorded/released House of the Rising Sun in 1964 (58 years)

IMO Odetta did the best rendition.

 

[maureenfarone]

This came up yesterday in the Worlds forum in K&C so I'm responding here so the other thread isn't derailed.

The post was about whether the Heavy Young Heathens had sued others over infringement and whether the band is hard to work with. @MacMadame asked about other lawsuits and I found this article: https://indianexpress.com/article/e...rs-alexa-knierim-and-brandon-frazier-7793100/ which mentions other lawsuits.

 

[millyskate]

It sounds like that article is completely inaccurate as skaters are required to sign a declaration to the ISU that they are licensed to use their music at the start of the season.

 

[MacMadame]

This was posted in one of the US Nationals threads:

I talked to someone in the know in the bathroom and she said that Brandon and Alexa had nothing to do with the lack of replay. That they had fixed the music issue and paid the royalties.

I am glad to hear this as musicians have to eat and pay rent/mortgage just like everyone else.

I don't think it's 100% accurate to say that K/F had nothing to do with the lack of replays though. I am sure that their situation was the catalyst for NBC's total overreaction.

But, if they paid the license fee as soon as they became aware (i.e., the lawsuit), it makes NBC's reaction even more of an overreaction. These kerfluffles happen once in a while. If they want to avoid all and every lawsuit, NBC wouldn't be able to show anything ever.

 

[VGThuy]

This was posted in one of the US Nationals threads:


I am glad to hear this as musicians have to eat and pay rent/mortgage just like everyone else.

I don't think it's 100% accurate to say that K/F had nothing to do with the lack of replays though. I am sure that their situation was the catalyst for NBC's total overreaction.

But, if they paid the license fee as soon as they became aware (i.e., the lawsuit), it makes NBC's reaction even more of an overreaction. These kerfluffles happen once in a while. If they want to avoid all and every lawsuit, NBC wouldn't be able to show anything ever.

I noticed that Peacock has replays of nationals events available even if it was just for two days or whatever.

 

[tony]

This was posted in one of the US Nationals threads:


I am glad to hear this as musicians have to eat and pay rent/mortgage just like everyone else.

I don't think it's 100% accurate to say that K/F had nothing to do with the lack of replays though. I am sure that their situation was the catalyst for NBC's total overreaction.

But, if they paid the license fee as soon as they became aware (i.e., the lawsuit), it makes NBC's reaction even more of an overreaction. These kerfluffles happen once in a while. If they want to avoid all and every lawsuit, NBC wouldn't be able to show anything ever.

But aren't Alexa and Brandon assholes when we said we still didn't know all the details?

 

[ChillSkate]

LOL - If the K/F thing isn't the issue, than what is it? Does USFSA just want to avoid acquiring too many loyal fans? What was this knowledgeable person's explanation of why there are not replays anymore? If NBC doesn't want to show replays, why doesn't USFSA just put them on Youtube? Will USFSA ensure it has the right to do so in its next contract? Does USFSA even know / care about this issue?

Obviously, I don't expect OP to have all the answers. Whenever I have attended competitions, I always get the impression the officials feel like fans are lucky to be there and should be grateful for the opportunity to watch their private figure skating event. The attitude seems the exact opposite of an organization that wants to grow and nurture and excite its fan base.

 

[ChillSkate]

BTW I have no idea why my last post has giant spaces in it. I tried to edit the spaces out and it wouldn't let me. Apologies!

 

[once_upon]

OFFS.

 

[VGThuy]

I thought the page wasn’t loading at first.

 

[DreamSkates]

This was posted in one of the US Nationals threads:


I am glad to hear this as musicians have to eat and pay rent/mortgage just like everyone else.

I don't think it's 100% accurate to say that K/F had nothing to do with the lack of replays though. I am sure that their situation was the catalyst for NBC's total overreaction.

But, if they paid the license fee as soon as they became aware (i.e., the lawsuit), it makes NBC's reaction even more of an overreaction. These kerfluffles happen once in a while. If they want to avoid all and every lawsuit, NBC wouldn't be able to show anything ever.

People are quite sue-happy these days. So I can see the caution by NBC.

 

[skatingguy]

BTW I have no idea why my last post has giant spaces in it. I tried to edit the spaces out and it wouldn't let me. Apologies!

I thought it was for dramatic effect.

 

[once_upon]

USFS does not own the videos they cannot post them to YouTube directly. NBC would be all over that faster than the submit button was touched.

YouTube scours the web to make sure they aren't violating copyright. USFS would need lots of bargaining power to force NBC to give them rights. USFS NEEDS NBC and their contracts. That's $$$ that USFS gets from NBC..not the other way around. The NFL can dictate it's conditions because the networks need them for revenue. USFS is fortunate to get a contract and they need network to have exposure.

I'm not sure how old you are chillskate, but Nationals didn't have audiences/fans for a long time. We didn't have more than a 15 minute segment on the Wonderful Wild World of Sports every once in a while. There was no internet, no streaming, no replays of any sort.

The kerfkuke gave NBC it's opportunity to drop what was not a profitable venture for them.

Back when Ice Network came into being, we were promised all acces all day all year - sort of like when golf network was started. Surprise golf was/is more popular than figure skating. Who'd thunk that?

So the Olympic Channel was developed to be all sports Olympic related and offer replays. Except those replays also meant unending ads. Which towards the end were really only ads for other replays - no cash income.

Peacock has slightly more income stream but it is truly supported by other stuff and NBC parent company. Look to see if there are really any other sport replays available. Soccer (football) but their viewership is so much bigger and has a bigger income stream.

I won't be surprised when Peacock considers pulling the plug on skating totally.

We need to recognize that skating events are expensive to host, to run, to exist. It is expensive to go to one. If I recall from when my city hosted a Nationals USFS did a slick sales job - one that was a sham. People were told you'll host international events, you'll have huge crowds from all over the US and some international, you'll get all kinds of support from us...nope. we are not a city that doesn't know how to host big sporting events or big other events.

Other than a Tara/Michelle or Tonya/Nancy drama, it's a niche sport. An expensive one.

NBC wanted a fall guy. Fans wanted someone to blame for decreasing services. Win-win I guess.

 

[Frau Muller]

USFS does not own the videos they cannot post them to YouTube directly. NBC would be all over that faster than the submit button was touched.

YouTube scours the web to make sure they aren't violating copyright. USFS would need lots of bargaining power to force NBC to give them rights. USFS NEEDS NBC and their contracts. That's $$$ that USFS gets from NBC..not the other way around. The NFL can dictate it's conditions because the networks need them for revenue. USFS is fortunate to get a contract and they need network to have exposure.

I'm not sure how old you are chillskate, but Nationals didn't have audiences/fans for a long time. We didn't have more than a 15 minute segment on the Wonderful Wild World of Sports every once in a while. There was no internet, no streaming, no replays of any sort.

The kerfkuke gave NBC it's opportunity to drop what was not a profitable venture for them.

Back when Ice Network came into being, we were promised all acces all day all year - sort of like when golf network was started. Surprise golf was/is more popular than figure skating. Who'd thunk that?

So the Olympic Channel was developed to be all sports Olympic related and offer replays. Except those replays also meant unending ads. Which towards the end were really only ads for other replays - no cash income.

Peacock has slightly more income stream but it is truly supported by other stuff and NBC parent company. Look to see if there are really any other sport replays available. Soccer (football) but their viewership is so much bigger and has a bigger income stream.

I won't be surprised when Peacock considers pulling the plug on skating totally.

We need to recognize that skating events are expensive to host, to run, to exist. It is expensive to go to one. If I recall from when my city hosted a Nationals USFS did a slick sales job - one that was a sham. People were told you'll host international events, you'll have huge crowds from all over the US and some international, you'll get all kinds of support from us...nope. we are not a city that doesn't know how to host big sporting events or big other events.

Other than a Tara/Michelle or Tonya/Nancy drama, it's a niche sport. An expensive one.

NBC wanted a fall guy. Fans wanted someone to blame for decreasing services. Win-win I guess.

So right. During most of my youth, this was basically a privileged “country club” type of sport. We were thrilled that the old Broadmoor World Arena would be filled! We’re talking not THAT long ago - into the 1970s for Sr Worlds and 1980s for Jr Worlds. High Tea at the Broadmoor Hotel in between events. If one couldn’t go, one watched a couple of hours coverage on ABC, hosted by Dick Button and perfectly directed by Doug Wilson. I read what I could in libraries and by receiving Skating magazine. Zero internet or fora.

p.s. Think about planning trips from San Juan to these privileged spots…lining up the preppy blazers, LOL. Just the right sort of understated jewelry.

 

[once_upon]

Yes. It's my understanding that fans were not allowed in early years.

And early on in the development of these forums, people and families depended on posting/reports from people in the arenas to give accounts and pbp of the events. Back then (and we are talking ~22-30 years ago) real pbp happened. Not all the chatty stuff, the bashing of commentators, the costume stuff because it was limited to reports.

When I started attending in arenas it was the Sarah, Tara, Sasha, Michelle years. I could get front row seats for all events for ~$650 and it was the only way to see all competitors from novice to seniors. Even then, arenas weren't full until the Michelle vs whoever sessions. Last live in arena i went to front row tickets were out of my budget.

If NBC/Peacock can get $850,000 per 30 second ad for football they will bend over backwards to do replays. I can't find any citation for what an average 30 sec ad for figure skating is but for general TV it is $110,000 per 30 sec. Probably widely variable maybe a lot less for lower audience viewership. Peacock subscription will be lower for skating than for soccer. It's a matter profits, bandwidth, dedicated employees needed.

What happened to replays-bottom line.

ps - Puerto Rico is on our travel list sometime in future

 

[MacMadame]

People are quite sue-happy these days. So I can see the caution by NBC.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything in the US. It's not about avoiding lawsuits. It's about avoiding lawsuits they can't get thrown out easily or are worried it would be costly to litigate with a poor chance of winning.

This thing with music is something that happens very rarely in figure skating. Like once a decade. And it's easily solved by saying "oops, we didn't realize it was covered" and paying the royalties.

YouTube scours the web to make sure they aren't violating copyright.

Btw, YouTube does this mostly via software. If their software doesn't catch it, then the owner of the copyright has to submit a DMC Takedown request. (I'm starting a YouTube channel so I looked into it. )

Peacock has slightly more income stream but it is truly supported by other stuff and NBC parent company. Look to see if there are really any other sport replays available. Soccer (football) but their viewership is so much bigger and has a bigger income stream.

Many sports on Peacock have replays. The only ones I know about that don't are figure skating and gymnastics -- two sports that have music as part of the performance. (I don't think they show synchronized swimming so the music there isn't an issue.) There may be others because I don't watch every sport but everyone I have looked at has replays. Including some obscure car racing league and rugby.

The thing is, once you have a recording of an event, it's not a lot of $$$ to put it on a server somewhere and add an entry into a database. Replays are a cheap way to say "see-- we are the home for _____ sport!" I.E., it's cheap marketing for them. And NBC already owns the rights to skating so it doesn't cost Peacock anything to get the skating. So why not stick it up there and let people watch it?

If Peacock wants to save money, the best way would be to stop making original content. That costs way more than skating to produce. HBO Max seems to be going that way as a cost-cutting measure -- they've even said that's what they are doing to save money.

Peacock subscription will be lower for skating than for soccer. It's a matter profits, bandwidth, dedicated employees needed.

That's not how Peacock works. They don't sell subscriptions to individual content. Did you mean a different word other than subscription?

 

[Karen-W]

It does seem to be a copyright issue that is very specific in nature to just figure skating and gymnastics, in the sense that music rights for live events like a sporting contest held in an arena are different than the music rights for anything else, which are classified as "entertainment" and cost a lot more. It seems to me that perhaps figure skating and gymnastics fans in the US need to band together and lobby Congress for some sort of change in how music rights for sports events are categorized and then allowed to be re-streamed because it's also an issue on YT where these vids do get taken down on a regular basis (or so it seems).

 

[DreamSkates]

It does seem to be a copyright issue that is very specific in nature to just figure skating and gymnastics, in the sense that music rights for live events like a sporting contest held in an arena are different than the music rights for anything else, which are classified as "entertainment" and cost a lot more. It seems to me that perhaps figure skating and gymnastics fans in the US need to band together and lobby Congress for some sort of change in how music rights for sports events are categorized and then allowed to be re-streamed because it's also an issue on YT where these vids do get taken down on a regular basis (or so it seems).

I can’t imagine in my wildest dreams that Congress would care about this issue. They have a hard enough time agreeing to make progress on so many issues that would help Americans live better lives.

 

[MacMadame]

I can’t imagine in my wildest dreams that Congress would care about this issue. They have a hard enough time agreeing to make progress on so many issues that would help Americans live better lives.

Congress will care if corporations care. They passed a copyright law in 2020 and another in 2021 so someone cares.

As I think about it, NBC and other networks/streaming companies have a vested interest in making it okay to replay sporting events no matter what is going on with the music. The question is whether they care enough to work with Congress over it. But there is bound to be another bill to change copyright at some point so maybe they'd throw that in if they thought it had a chance of passing. It will be interesting to follow this and see what happens long term.

 

[DreamSkates]

Congress will care if corporations care. They passed a copyright law in 2020 and another in 2021 so someone cares.

As I think about it, NBC and other networks/streaming companies have a vested interest in making it okay to replay sporting events no matter what is going on with the music. The question is whether they care enough to work with Congress over it. But there is bound to be another bill to change copyright at some point so maybe they'd throw that in if they thought it had a chance of passing. It will be interesting to follow this and see what happens long term.

Your comments make sense. My only other thought on the matter is that figure skating doesn’t carry the same financial weight as other sports such as football, basketball, soccer, golf, tennis….

 

[barbk]

A solution that pays rights holders but does not require individual negotiation with music rights holders would be fantastic.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

A solution that pays rights holders but does not require individual negotiation with music rights holders would be fantastic.

Yes and frameworks for these kinds of licensing agreements already exist.

 

[MacMadame]

Your comments make sense. My only other thought on the matter is that figure skating doesn’t carry the same financial weight as other sports such as football, basketball, soccer, golf, tennis….

So true. Though it does impact gymnastics and synchronized swimming. So maybe all those governing bodies can get together along with the broadcasters and put some pressure on Congress.

[Though every country has different laws so the pressure may have to be spread out.]

A solution that pays rights holders but does not require individual negotiation with music rights holders would be fantastic.

Yes and frameworks for these kinds of licensing agreements already exist.

Yes, most music is covered under blanket licensing fees but artists can choose not to take part. It's because so much music is covered by those fees that the situation with Kni/Fra came up. Everyone involved just assumed it was covered and didn't check.

 

[Prancer]

BTW I have no idea why my last post has giant spaces in it. I tried to edit the spaces out and it wouldn't let me. Apologies!

Just so people know why this was posted, I removed a lot of white space from your post .

 

[AJ Skatefan]

LOL - If the K/F thing isn't the issue, than what is it? Does USFSA just want to avoid acquiring too many loyal fans? What was this knowledgeable person's explanation of why there are not replays anymore? If NBC doesn't want to show replays, why doesn't USFSA just put them on Youtube? Will USFSA ensure it has the right to do so in its next contract? Does USFSA even know / care about this issue?

Obviously, I don't expect OP to have all the answers. Whenever I have attended competitions, I always get the impression the officials feel like fans are lucky to be there and should be grateful for the opportunity to watch their private figure skating event. The attitude seems the exact opposite of an organization that wants to grow and nurture and excite its fan base.

This knowledgeable person didn’t go into details about why the replays are taken down. Just that Alexa and Brandon didn’t have anything to do with it.