Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

Former Lurve Goddess

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I think when the Kerrs skated to the Porridge Men it really raised their profile. I think they were quite happy to get the additional exposure. My friend brought a copy of their CD after I showed her their program.
I ordered the Porridge Men CD after seeing the Kerrs 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 OD. But I still believe that artists deserve to be compensated for the use of their work.
 

once_upon

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One can think the artists deserve payment for using their music/art and still question their morives/why they are just now filing a suit in 2021-2022 season.

Their music was used by another team for at least one, maybe two years. It appears to me that European or ISU broadcast networks were not perceived to have deep pockets so no suit was filed. A network, NBC, known to chalk lower placed teams over US skaters - not so many international viewers or potential to restream their program. A network (NBC) known to show US teams even if they don't compete in final groups, over the teams who are in the final two groups.

When a US skater uses their cover, it's Olympics year, and NBC (with deep pockets) show the skaters programs in national and international broadcasts, they now file a suit? Suddenly because it is a US based pair skater team and NBC broadcast/streaming is higher profile, that makes it an issue?

I still question why they aren't in the licensing playlist. I totally agree the licensing groups payouts issue needs addressing, especially as it relates to you tube or internet streaming, but isnt some income over filing suits better than no income? It's their choice then to not get monies. Yeah, dad is their lawyer, so one might assume he is giving services fee free, but I would think legal action still have costs.

I agree Alexis and Brandon should have responded, part of the issue falls on them. But again waiting to file until when they perceive some deep pockets, ie NBC and its affiliates (Peacock streaming), are showing it to the larger international audience is suspect to me.

That has the appearance - to me - they smelled deeper pockets. Possibly pockets that would want to settle quietly and quickly.
 

VGThuy

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Maybe it’s the lawyer in me, but it only makes sense to sue someone who can pay. Also, they did contact K/F first and K/F could have avoided all of that by responding but their attorney or whatever blew them off because musicians aren’t worthy of respect or something.
 

Aussie Willy

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I ordered the Porridge Men CD after seeing the Kerrs 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 OD. But I still believe that artists deserve to be compensated for the use of their work.
They actually increased their sales after the Kerrs performed to that music. That is pretty good promotion and compensation. In fact when I did a search on the band, part of the blurb was "as used by the Kerrs at the Olympics".
 

Rukia

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Maybe it’s the lawyer in me, but it only makes sense to sue someone who can pay. Also, they did contact K/F first and K/F could have avoided all of that by responding but their attorney or whatever blew them off because musicians aren’t worthy of respect or something.
How do you know that? The only person claiming that is the band. We have no idea who they even contacted (they said the agent, who it's possible sent it on to legal somewhere and thought they took care of it). There's way too much unknown about this to say that they disrespect musicians.
 

aka_gerbil

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KMT reposted on her stories a message from the singer/songwriter of their short program music being thrilled his song was used in the Olympics. :shuffle:
Patrick Watson also seems excited to have had his music used. https://twitter.com/patrickwatson/status/1496138448872382475?s=21

Most of the time, it seems like most musicians get a thrill out of seeing their music used for skating. It’s pretty rare for an artist to take issue, so I can see why most skaters don’t check for all pieces of music they use.

One thing I’m unclear on is did they not want someone to skate to the song, was it not covered by the usual broadcast/arena use fees, or did they want an additional licensing fee on top of the usual broadcast/arena use fees?

As for the bands claim their agent brushed them off, that’s just their version of events at this time. We will see what comes out as the lawsuit progresses.
 

wickedwitch

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Maybe it’s the lawyer in me, but it only makes sense to sue someone who can pay. Also, they did contact K/F first and K/F could have avoided all of that by responding but their attorney or whatever blew them off because musicians aren’t worthy of respect or something.
I don't think that's necessarily true. We have no clue of the timeline, how much time the band gave them to responds. It was at the most two weeks. It could have been far less. We also don't know what the band asked.

The point: we don't have nearly enough information to determine whether K/F's response showed a lack of respect for musicians.
 

Jarrett

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I don't think that's necessarily true. We have no clue of the timeline, how much time the band gave them to responds. It was at the most two weeks. It could have been far less. We also don't know what the band asked.

The point: we don't have nearly enough information to determine whether K/F's response showed a lack of respect for musicians.
I mean we don't know anything because K/F's rep is still not saying anything?
 

VGThuy

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I'm going by the stated facts presented. If there's a dispute in the facts by any the parties, I'll take it into consideration. I'm not going to be making up my own just because we all naturally have more sympathy for figure skaters in this case. My phrase about having no respect for musicians was mostly a commentary in this thread but not responding to a letter from the artists of the music you're using or at least their attorney not responding to a letter from the artists who are performing to the music your clients are performing is a sign of disrespect. Professionally-speaking, attorneys ignoring letters is intentional disrespect, and not opening your letters in time to send a respond is a sign of poor or disorganized lawyering.

Someone presented the idea that maybe they only had two weeks to respond. For one thing, we don't know that, but if it were true, first, I usually wrote that they had ten days from receipt of the letter when I wrote my letters to entities I would threaten with legal action, and you bet I followed through. Also, two weeks is a lot of time and in some states, if you're served with a lawsuit, it's not much less than the time that state allows you to respond before the otherside can file a default judgment against you.
 
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Karen-W

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Chris Mann is another artist who has posted multiple times about his excitement in figure skaters performing to his music:

Nate Bartholomay & Katie McBeath: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYjkFEsF_a7/?utm_medium=copy_link

Roman Sadovsky (one of my fave SPs): https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2471679966287857&id=23169911720
Yup, and Itzy shared a screenshot of Alysa Liu on their IG story after her Gala exhibition to their song. Lots of artists very much appreciate and enjoy seeing skaters use their music.
 

MacMadame

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So I guess all these people posting instances of artists who are happy someone skated to their music think that proves something. It does not. Neither does posting instances of artists who aren't happy.

Artists have the right to control how their work is used. It doesn't matter what other artists do or what we think they should do. It's their call.
 

millyskate

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So I guess all these people posting instances of artists who are happy someone skated to their music think that proves something. It does not. Neither does posting instances of artists who aren't happy.

Artists have the right to control how their work is used. It doesn't matter what other artists do or what we think they should do. It's their call.
Yes!
 

antmanb

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Also if you're gong to send a cease and desist letter you'd send it to the skaters who are in control of what music is played at the rink when they compete. That doesn't preclude the lawyers from also sending letters to anyone else involved including NBC.
 

Aaron MB Fan

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So I guess all these people posting instances of artists who are happy someone skated to their music think that proves something. It does not. Neither does posting instances of artists who aren't happy.

Artists have the right to control how their work is used. It doesn't matter what other artists do or what we think they should do. It's their call.
No, I don’t think it proves something. I agree completely that artists have the right to control how their work and IP is used. I was just sharing another example of an artist who did happen to appreciate their work being used, and an artist whom I enjoy.
 

once_upon

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Artists have the right to control how their work is used. It doesn't matter what other artists do or what we think they should do. It's their call.
I think that those standards should apply across all of skating then. If this band is going to declare that K/F should not/never use their music then they should have gone after everyone else.

How did K/F find this music to skate to, if it was not on some playlist somewhere else?

Did they file for copyright on their cover of the song? I only skimmed this article but gives an overview of what Indie artists need to do.

https://diymusician.cdbaby.com/music-rights/copyright-for-musicians/?

There are lots of things to consider when setting up your indie song


Somewhere along the way, these guys probably are licensed or marketed through someone (recording studio or label). I suspect much of their rights are actually owned by a company somewhere.
 

millyskate

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Too bad Disney can't sue every little juvenile skater who skates to the soundtrack from Frozen.

I swear if I hear 'Let It Go' one more time...
I've heard that in gymnastics, USAG pays the disney license where other feds do not, causing other gymnasts to be jealous of being allowed to use disney music...
 

antmanb

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I think that those standards should apply across all of skating then. If this band is going to declare that K/F should not/never use their music then they should have gone after everyone else.
This isn't about some nebulous standard or ideal this is about someone who owns the copyright in their work saying someone hasn't sought permission to use their work either through the right royalties agencies or directly. Why should an artist have to pursue every single person who might be using their work without permission when it makes sense to sue the person with deepest pockets. The article first linked says the band sued NBC (deep pockets) and the skaters (presumably to ask them to cease and desist their use of it).

Did they file for copyright on their cover of the song? I only skimmed this article but gives an overview of what Indie artists need to do.
Admittedly i don't know how this works in the US, but under English law and the handful of European jurisdictions i'm aware of copyright isn't a registered intellectual property right (like for example, trade marks or patents), copyright subsists in a work the moment it is created. In this case when it is created is irrelevant there's no question it is their song and their performance of it, the only thing that matters is whether there was permission to use it, either directly by the copyright owners or through payment of royalties to an agency that looks after this song.

I know that this board skews really heavily in favour of having sympathy for the skaters, but if this music wasn't licensed or cleared correctly then it's absolute not the band's fault for trying to seek the remedies they're fully entitled to seek. It's also possible to think the band are just doing what's right by them and also feel sorry for Knierim/Frazier who just picked a song they wanted to skate to and assumed that the right people did the right things to make it ok for them to do so.
 

millyskate

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It is also highly unlikely that the band were ever aware of the German pair who skated to the song. With Knierim and Frazier's program being broadcast on US tv this year, there was a chance of someone noticing. A German pair whose performance in the first two groups of Euros might have made it on Eurosport or a streaming service of the ISU? It is beyond unlikely they were aware.
 

once_upon

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For me it's not about the musicians having the right to get paid for their work, it's about who they choose to go after to get paid for their work.

Yes they need to get paid. I dont think I've ever said don't pay them (maybe I did or someone interpreted it that way).

To me it is about who they targeted NBC and the assumption (on my part) is that NBC would pay. That the European stakeholders would not.

I dont know much about creative (artist) copyrights - but the first article did indicate they needed to file for copyright.

It's not about being paid - it's about applying that standard of being paid across the board.
 

antmanb

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For me it's not about the musicians having the right to get paid for their work, it's about who they choose to go after to get paid for their work.

Yes they need to get paid. I dont think I've ever said don't pay them (maybe I did or someone interpreted it that way).

To me it is about who they targeted NBC and the assumption (on my part) is that NBC would pay. That the European stakeholders would not.
You always go after the lowest hanging fruit. I'm assuming the band are based in the US so suing someone in your home country is going to be easier and cheaper. Didn't the article say the band is represented by one of their fathers? Suing for IP infringement in a foreign country necessitating local expert lawyers and possibly translators wracks up the fees really quickly, if you're going to do it - start at home and see how it goes, until the satute of limitations is up elsewhere in the world they can file a claim against anyone else later on. Maybe they have and it just isn't newsworthy in Europe?
 

once_upon

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I think I have to put the thread on ignore. I do have some bias here.

A product that DH developed apparently had not been copyrighted or trademarked through the proper channels which limited his ability to pursue anything. Filing copyright is important in your case.

Then a few years later, I asked to be dismissed from a jury civil suit where copyright infringement was part of the suit. Obviously I never heard the details as I was excused, but it was sort of evident they were going after the big players.

This generates a lot of strong issues of everyone's part. That's why I'm bowing out.
 

Jay42

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If the band only found out about K/F using their music during the TE were they trying to go through K/F’s agent during the Olympics to get ahold of them to get them to stop using the music? Would they then have decided that being asked to wait until the Olympics were over as being blown off? I get that the band was probably trying to stop their song from being broadcast on TV again but that was never going to happen as long as K/F were in Beijing.
 

MacMadame

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Did they file for copyright on their cover of the song? I only skimmed this article but gives an overview of what Indie artists need to do.
It is absolutely not required to register your copyright in the US. You have it regardless of whether or not you register it. This is even said in one of the articles you posted:

In the strictest technical terms, you own your musical copyright the moment you capture the composition or recording in a fixed medium. This could be something as simple as writing the melody or lyrics on a piece of paper or humming into a recorder.

However, registering your copyrights with the U.S. Copyright Office entitles you to enhanced benefits. Most important of all, in a groundbreaking ruling, the Supreme Court has mandated that registration with the USCO is required before you can file a lawsuit and registering early can earn you $150,000 plus attorney fees per deliberate infringement – but only if you register early on.

So it's a good idea to register especially if you want to sue someone. But you can register it right before you sue them. You just get a smaller award if the case goes to court than if you had registered it nearer the time of creation.

Not that it matters much. These guys have sued before. They know what they are doing. It's beggars belief that they haven't registered their copyright to their performance.

Somewhere along the way, these guys probably are licensed or marketed through someone (recording studio or label). I suspect much of their rights are actually owned by a company somewhere.
Why would you suspect that? One of the articles you posted shows how to get paid for your music without giving up your rights to it. In the days of vinyl records, most artists tried to get a recording contract and those contracts would give the rights to your music up to that company. But these days, artists aren't as dependent on record companies and also they have learned from the experiences of other artists who've had to buy back their own catalog or, in the case of Taylor Swift, re-recorded all her songs in order to get control of her music back.


I think people got whipped up by the idea that K/F are going to lose all their livelihood because the courts will give the artists a big judgment against them. That was always unlikely and, as has been pointed out by actual lawyers, is not why K/F were named in the suit. It was so that they would "cease & desist" from using the music again unless/until it got paid for.

As I mentioned originally, K/F could simply stop using the song at this point, and then they would be fine legally. NBC is the one who is going to have to pay to use the song, not K/F. And, if they do, most likely K/F can skate to it at Worlds (which I assume they will go to) as that would be part of the settlement most likely.

Originally I rolled my eyes at this suit because I assumed that the music was covered by the normal licensing companies. I realize now that was dumb. Especially now that we know one of them has a lawyer for a father. :lol:
 

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