Kevin Reynolds' music copyright problem (is there a precedent for this?)

[Sylvia]

Starting a new thread from Tony's post in Canadian Men's news because this last-minute development makes me & (how has this not happened before?):

Kevin Reynolds is reporting due to a dispute about the rights to his free skate music, he has to get rid of it and come up with something else for NHK Trophy next weekend.

Posted by Reynolds today: https://www.instagram.com/p/BpmrCofnBtP/?hl=en&taken-by=kevin.reynolds

Hi everyone, I have a bit of unfortunate news to share: as a result of an ongoing dispute with one of the shared rightsholders of the music, I have been forced to abandon my free skate to Ni no Kuni.
I apologize to the many fans who were looking forward to seeing it at the upcoming NHK trophy in Hiroshima. The timing of this is extremely distressing, but I will do the very best that I can in the limited time I have before the event to prepare an alternate free skating program.
I ask for your continued support, and thank you for your understanding.

 

[Vagabond]

 

[Debbie S]

This sounds really strange. There is a fair use exemption under copyright law. I would think athletic/theatrical performances amount to fair use. They are not profiting from/selling their work. Maybe some lawyers on here can chime in.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

This sounds really strange. There is a fair use exemption under copyright law. I would think athletic/theatrical performances amount to fair use. They are not profiting from/selling their work. Maybe some lawyers on here can chime in.

"Fair use" as you describe here would only be applicable to US copyright law. I know quite a bit about how it operates here, but less so about Canada (where Reynolds is a citizen) and Japan, where the competition is being held and where the national copyright laws would be in effect.

Also complicating this is that it's a video game, so I am not 100% certain about who is the rights holder for the music (I don't know if there's a sync license or the gaming company owns the right).

Anyone knowledgeable about music copyright and licensing in Japan?

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I did reach out to a friend who is a video games professor to get some context (and whom I know from the music biz):

It's not THAT different than movies, etc., and, in most cases, the publisher owns the rights to them (rather than the actual composer, of course!). What makes this strange is that Ni no Kuni is a decade old? In this case, though, I think it's Joe Hisaishi who is also Studio Ghibli's house composer, so it's sort of a big name in the anime/Japanese game space. He's a bit of a titan in that space, so you certainly can't skate under the radar when using his stuff. Namco/Bandai are also a huge company, so either way, if they come down on you, it will be with the full force of their legal teams.

Japanese companies are waaaaay more aggressive on this stuff than American companies. Fair Use ain't always a term in their lexicons. They definitely do mechanical/sync licensing to be in line with Europe and the US, but they're much more stringent. The blanket license thing I don't know about at all, but they do have an organization with a name like JASRAC or something similar to ASCAP. I know that their license is so intense that stuff like Spotify and Apple Music and Pandora have had a hard time there. But that's all I've got.

 

[Kateri]

People skate to Joe Hisaishi stuff all the time. I wonder why Kevin's having issues!

 

[RoseRed]

"Fair use" as you describe here would only be applicable to US copyright law. I know quite a bit about how it operates here, but less so about Canada (where Reynolds is a citizen) and Japan, where the competition is being held and where the national copyright laws would be in effect.

Also complicating this is that it's a video game, so I am not 100% certain about who is the rights holder for the music (I don't know if there's a sync license or the gaming company owns the right).

Anyone knowledgeable about music copyright and licensing in Japan?

In Canada we have a very similar concept to fair use, called fair dealing. I'm not a lawyer so I don't really know, but I just recently had a presentation from a copyright lawyer, and I would guess that this would be fair dealing in Canada.
The broadcasters would need to pay some sort of blanket licensing fee to show it, but that applies for pretty much all the music used (even for classical music, the particular recordings are normally copyright).

ETA: There was this article about the music at the Olympics. Nothing in it suggests why this should be a problem: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/arts/music/olympics-figure-skating-songs-copyrights.html

 

[overedge]

I just had some dealings with a situation around licensing music for broadcast/sales. From what I know, if the event is being broadcast, the broadcaster should have a blanket license (as mentioned above) - they submit a list of the music that was used to the licensing agency, and the copyright holders are compensated from the revenues from the license fee that the broadcaster pays. (This is in Canada - I am not sure if the same is true in the US).
If the video's posted on YouTube, officially or unofficially, YouTube has some sort of music recognition algorithm that IDs the music and then pays the copyright holder from YouTube ad revenue.
The other possibility is that the copyright holder didn't want their music used for this purpose, and is asking/demanding that it not be used. Kind of like how Pharrell Williams is currently threatening Trump with legal action for using "Happy" at his rallies.

 

[nimi]

Wasn't it considered quite a feat that Yuzu was able to convince Hisaishi (or his people) to let him use the particular edit of Hisaishi pieces he used in 2016/17? And that earlier on there had been some other Japanese skater who had some problems getting the green light for his Hisaishi program due to the music rights issue? I don't remember exactly how it went, but if somebody's interested, maybe there was some discussion about this subject in the Yuzu cheer thread circa 2016.

 

[casken]

Starting a new thread from Tony's post in Canadian Men's news because this last-minute development makes me & (how has this not happened before?):

I'm not 100% sure, but I remember hearing years ago Todd Eldredge couldn't get music cleared by a copyright holder, and had to abandon using it.

 

[BaileyCatts]

Maybe I'm thinking too simply, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to let skaters clear music and let people hear your music! Your music is being exposed to a wide range of audience that may never otherwise hear your music, maybe entice them to look into other things you have written, and even buy your CDs (which I have done just based on hearing a single piece a skater used). Why wouldn't you clear a piece for a skater? They still have to pay the rights fees so you still get paid, isn't that how it works? I just don't get it.

 

[Aussie Willy]

That is disappointing for him. I would think that any musician would appreciate their music being used because of the exposure. But obviously not.

 

[screech]

I hope he goes back to something like his ACDC program. IMO that's a better fit for him than whatever he's been doing the last few years.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm petitioning Andrew Lloyd Webber to put a blanket ban on POTO!

 

[AxelAnnie]

Maybe I'm thinking too simply, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to let skaters clear music and let people hear your music! Your music is being exposed to a wide range of audience that may never otherwise hear your music, maybe entice them to look into other things you have written, and even buy your CDs (which I have done just based on hearing a single piece a skater used). Why wouldn't you clear a piece for a skater? They still have to pay the rights fees so you still get paid, isn't that how it works? I just don't get it.

Because you have no control over what they are going to do with it.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Maybe I'm thinking too simply, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to let skaters clear music and let people hear your music! Your music is being exposed to a wide range of audience that may never otherwise hear your music, maybe entice them to look into other things you have written, and even buy your CDs (which I have done just based on hearing a single piece a skater used). Why wouldn't you clear a piece for a skater? They still have to pay the rights fees so you still get paid, isn't that how it works? I just don't get it.

Me, either. In many instances, hearing pieces performed by skaters has been a crucial part of my musical education.

 

[Dobre]

Maybe I'm thinking too simply, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to let skaters clear music and let people hear your music!

Probably because the composer/producer/etc. would like you to pay more in order to use the music in such a public manner. There are other possibilities, but that is the simplest one.

 

[nimi]

IIRC, the previous problems with the right to use Hisaishi pieces might've been mostly about the fact that skaters tend to EDIT the pieces they use for skating. Apparently this doesn't sit well with the maestro (unless it's done really well, à la Yuzu). I guess I can kinda understand, given that the music edits we hear in competitions sometimes sound pretty hamfisted and amateurish even to my non-musician ears, and I can imagine a composer feeling protective about their work and cringing very hard if they ever come across any of these "skating editions" of it.

I don't remember feeling irked by Kevin's music edit (I guess I thought it flowed pretty nicely? IDK) and I feel sorry for his predicament, but if this composer is very particular and selective about how his music is edited and used by others... and if Kevin's team didn't get his express approval beforehand or something... Yeah, I can see how this situation could arise. But it's all guesswork at this point, we probably get more info soonish.

 

[overedge]

I doubt this is the case with Kevin (although who knows) but the copyright holder might not like how the performer is interpreting or presenting their music. It might not fit with what they intended to convey when they made the piece.

 

[mjb52]

I was just wondering about this because people were talking about all the covers of songs at Skate Canada - I was curious if it might relate to copyright issues and that started me thinking about whether skaters needed to get the rights to music or if there was just a blanket permission for this type of performance. I read the article above but it's still confusing to be honest. I've read volumes on copyright over the years for various scholarly reasons but there is a lot of contradictory information out there because a lot of myths have developed over the years that muddy the waters.

 

[jenniferlyon]

Maybe I'm thinking too simply, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to let skaters clear music and let people hear your music! Your music is being exposed to a wide range of audience that may never otherwise hear your music, maybe entice them to look into other things you have written, and even buy your CDs (which I have done just based on hearing a single piece a skater used). Why wouldn't you clear a piece for a skater? They still have to pay the rights fees so you still get paid, isn't that how it works? I just don't get it.

I know, when Katarina Witt skated to "Lemon Tree" by Fool's Garden, I HAD to have that song. It was hard to find, too, because it wasn't available in any of the U.S. record stores.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I know, when Katarina Witt skated to "Lemon Tree" by Fool's Garden, I HAD to have that song. It was hard to find, too, because it wasn't available in any of the U.S. record stores.

Me, too. I remember seeing Witt's skate on TV, then a few days later going to a theme park, and the music was playing over their loud speaker. I got a few looks from their information desk when I asked them who composed the song.

Fool's Garden - Lemon Tree

 

[Aussie Willy]

I know, when Katarina Witt skated to "Lemon Tree" by Fool's Garden, I HAD to have that song. It was hard to find, too, because it wasn't available in any of the U.S. record stores.

She also skated to Rescue Me and The Case Continues which are both songs I had to track down.

It was the same when Yuka Sato skated to Dido. I had never heard her and had to ask about it. Searched high and low for the album.

My friend brought the Porridge Men album on the back of me showing her the Kerrs skating to their music. And apparently a whole group got introduced to them via the Kerrs.

On the other hand, if a group or artist use a skater in a film clip, that introduces the musician's fans to skaters. Guy Sebastian (represented Australia at Eurovision a couple of years ago) has Andrew Dodds in his latest film clip. Song is to be released in the next few days.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I hope he goes back to something like his ACDC program. IMO that's a better fit for him than whatever he's been doing the last few years.

That's not a bad idea but it's not going to be easy since programs are now 30 seconds less and with one less jumping pass. Whatever he comes up is going to be very last minute and unfamiliar. Very sorry that this is happening to him.

 

[rosewood]

https://victorysportsnews.com/articles/4441/original
Here is an interview with Keiichi Yano who is the music editor of Hanyu's Hope & Legacy as well as SEIMEI. The music editor is a very well known person in this sport in Japan. According to him, Joe Hisaishi doesn't like his multiple musics to be edited/combined into one piece since every music has its own concept. Thus the editor and team Hanyu had to try hard to get an exceptional permission from Hisaishi so that Hanyu can use two musics of Hisaishi's in his Hope & Legacy program. Prior to Hanyu's case, it was well known that Takahiko Kozuka couldn't get a permission to use Studio Gibri's original source of the musics (composed by Hisaishi) and Kozuka had to re-record musics by himself when he skated to Fantasia for Nausicaa.

BTW, the interview with Keiichi Yano is a very interesting one talking about the history of music editions in this sport in Japan.

Here is another interview. It's with Joe Hisaishi and it's on JASRAC official site. He says he wants to respect Japanese law even when he works with people outside of Japan.
http://www.jasrac.or.jp/sakka/vol_21/inner3.html

ETA:
Article about Hisaishi's concept for Hope & Legacy (original music), it's on the lower half of the page.
https://hibikihajime.com/information/21798/

 

[Erin]

I hope he goes back to something like his ACDC program. IMO that's a better fit for him than whatever he's been doing the last few years.

That's not a bad idea but it's not going to be easy since programs are now 30 seconds less and with one less jumping pass. Whatever he comes up is going to be very last minute and unfamiliar. Very sorry that this is happening to him.

The AC/DC program was also a short program so that would be particularly hard to adapt

But point taken - in any other year, he could have pulled an old program off the shelf and it would be a challenge but manageable. This year is much tougher because of the change in requirements.

 

[Dave of the North]

As long as it isn't that program that Tarasova did with the tree costume...

 

[screech]

The AC/DC program was also a short program so that would be particularly hard to adapt

Well not the program exactly (hence why I said "like" his ACDC program) but something along those lines. Though it would be very easy to put Back In Black and Thunderstruck together for a FP....

 

[Carolla5501]

I’m wondering if it would not make more sense to withdraw from NHK. I mean he is unlikely to make the Grand Prix final and taking the time to fly to and from Japan.

 

[Sylvia]

I’m wondering if it would not make more sense to withdraw from NHK.

Kevin LOVES Japan and has many fans there. This could be his last time competing in Japan; I highly doubt he would even consider withdrawing for a non-injury reason.