ISU figure skating officials weigh major changes in rules, schedule

[Miezekatze]

This thread is discussing what those criteria should be. But, also the criteria aren't applied reasonably, so rule changing isn't necessarily going to change things. You can see this with the choreography scores that Sonja gets. They definitely should be higher IMO.

I don't know why people are assuming that the ISU wants to make changes in order to stop Ilia from winning. Ilia himself has said that the scoring system doesn't reward and incentivize artistry and creativity. And the judges are happy to give him high scores for things other than quads.

I used to prefer men's skating over women's, but I am so sick of splatfests resulting from the men going for quads that they don't land consistently. The quads are worth so much even with a fall that the skaters do the math and say that they should spend their training time and their competition time and energy on quads. I'm all for further reducing the value of quads with falls (and even more if the quad is not fully rotated).

Agreed.

It’s not Ilia, that’s the problem (even though I agree with jägerbomb, that he’s not as marketable to the masses as he/his management thinks he is), it’s the fact that the current judging system rewards especially the male skaters trying jumps they can’t do, which makes their whole programs completely unbearable to watch about 75% of the time.

Best example for me the Italian male skaters trying to get an Olympic spot, ruining their health and splatting on their programs so often, that as a viewer you barely got an idea how the program would actually look like. Then Memola seemingly enjoying to skate the first time this season at Europeans when he was too injured to try the quads.

Also the mens LP at Europeans was mediocre, but it had good performances, but all the good performances seemed to be young skaters who happened to land their jumps, while having crappy spins and no choreography until after their jumps. I did other things while watching it and still was bored.

Obviously removing all jumps from the LP would be over the top, but I think there need to be some changes to keep skaters from trying quads they barely ever manage.

For me as an audience member the skate that made watching Europeans the most worth it for me and that is going to stay with me forever and that I felt like sharing on social media was Josefin Taljegard by the way.

 

[zigzig]

So everyone would do the same step sequence? Aside from how old that would get -- worse than 10 Ricky Martin RDs -- how are they going to fit the music and theme of the program if it's prescribed?


I'm confused about this. They aren't giving GOE so what would be averaged? If 3 said a jump was not under-rotated but one did, it gets 25% of the underrotation penalty? Or just doesn't get counted as underrotated because the majority said it was fine? I like having the TS spread out but that might mean one really sees the jump while the others don't, so there has to be a way to reconcile this if it's going to work to solve the problem. Probably multiple cameras is a better solution as it requires fewer trained people.

Like if someone's 3A got called clean, q and < (and yes that is a pretty extreme case but I have seen some truly bonkers calls where an obviously underrotated jump was called clean - see Bradie Tennell's 2A+3T from Shanghai Trophy a few years ago - https://youtu.be/JLv6tPIQhAk?si=5EVQzDHJQh7YcY83&t=3m05s), the base value would average out to 7.2 (8 plus 8 plus 5.6 and then divided by 3).

ETA - I love Bradie and only picked this example cuz it was pretty egregious, especially considering that tech panel was going to town on other people's jumps.

 

[BittyBug]

So everyone would do the same step sequence? Aside from how old that would get -- worse than 10 Ricky Martin RDs -- how are they going to fit the music and theme of the program if it's prescribed?

Think of it as the compulsory dance of figure skating.

I used to prefer men's skating over women's, but I am so sick of splatfests resulting from the men going for quads that they don't land consistently. The quads are worth so much even with a fall that the skaters do the math and say that they should spend their training time and their competition time and energy on quads. I'm all for further reducing the value of quads with falls (and even more if the quad is not fully rotated).

I disagree that quads are worth so much with a fall that people risk them anyway. When you add in the -1 for the fall plus the impact on PCS including the cap for multiple falls, falling on a quad is costly. The reason people do them anyway is that it’s hard to win without a quad, as it should be for an athletic sport. Sport is about pushing the limits - citius, altius, forties - and I don’t want to see the clock rolled back.

I’ll also add that plenty of people got injured before the quad era. Both Rudy Galindo and Tara Lipinski had hip replacements at an early age, Michelle Kwan was felled by injury, Randy Gardner, Deanna Stellato, and on and on and on.

I said it before, but more unleveled elements provides more opportunities for reputation judging, as we see in ice dance with the choreo elements, and I think it’s a bad idea. That doesn’t mean what earns features for levels can’t or shouldn’t be changed, but having no levels at all makes things ripe for corruption.

 

[her grace]

They could start by actually judging PCS based on the published criteria. There should be larger variations in scoring of the three different components. See if that helps encourage more creativity, artistry, and well-rounded programs.

 

[Allskate]

I disagree that quads are worth so much with a fall that people risk them anyway. When you add in the -1 for the fall plus the impact on PCS including the cap for multiple falls, falling on a quad is costly. The reason people do them anyway is that it’s hard to win without a quad, as it should be for an athletic sport. Sport is about pushing the limits - citius, altius, forties - and I don’t want to see the clock rolled back.

Especially in the men's competition, losing one point is very small compared to the overall scores. Sure, falling on quads gets them reductions in the PCS, but the PCS accounts for a relatively smaller percentage of the overall score, especially for the men. And, IMO, landing a quad gets skaters bumps in PCS. More importantly, except for the lutz and axel, the quads have base levels that are more than double the base value of the corresponding triple. So, for example, if someone falls on their quad sal and loses a point for the fall, their tech score still would come out slightly ahead of an average triple sal. And, because the amount of GOE points is based on the triple sal and someone is not likely to get huge GOE on the triple sal, there's really not much risk of doing the quad unless you are going to get a downgrade.

The same is even true for the triple axel with the women. Why not go for a triple axel if they are going to be very generous with the GOE (and PCS) if you land it and aren't going to be very hard on you if you screw it up. I think that's been pretty apparent with Ami Nakai's scores. Earlier this season, she admitted that her percentages in practice on her triple axel were not that good, but she was going for it anyway.

They could start by actually judging PCS based on the published criteria. There should be larger variations in scoring of the three different components. See if that helps encourage more creativity, artistry, and well-rounded programs.

They are supposed to judge the different components separately but they don't, which is why I think changing the rules, even if the rules were good, would not necessarily fix things. Plu

 

[BittyBug]

More importantly, except for the lutz and axel, the quads have base levels that are more than double the base value of the corresponding triple. So, for example, if someone falls on their quad sal and loses a point for the fall, their tech score still would come out slightly ahead of an average triple sal. And, because the amount of GOE points is based on the triple sal and someone is not likely to get huge GOE on the triple sal, there's really not much risk of doing the quad unless you are going to get a downgrade.

If I’m reading the charts correctly, a 4S with a fall, assuming the jump was fully rotated, would earn the skater 3.85 in points (9.70 base value - 4.85 GOE from the mandatory -5 GOE and then -1.0 deduction for the fall). A 3S with 0 GOE (“average”) would earn 4.3 points, so it doesn’t look to me like their tech score on a 4S with a fall would come out slightly ahead of an average 3S. Moreover, someone skating at the senior level should be able to manage better than “an average” 3S. A 3S with a +2 GOE would earn the skater 5.16 points (4.3 base value + 0.86 in GOE). Maybe it’s not as wide a margin as you’d like, but unless I’m misreading the scale of values, a quad with a fall does not earn more than an average triple.

As for risk, if no one takes a risk, the sport doesn’t advance, so I’d prefer that athletes take risks. Plus it’s not like skaters don’t fall on their triples - they do. The ice is slippery.

 

[Allskate]

If I’m reading the charts correctly, a 4S with a fall, assuming the jump was fully rotated, would earn the skater 3.85 in points (9.70 base value - 4.85 GOE from the mandatory -5 GOE and then -1.0 deduction for the fall). A 3S with 0 GOE (“average”) would earn 4.3 points, so it doesn’t look to me like their tech score on a 4S with a fall would come out slightly ahead of an average 3S.

That's less than a half point difference. I don't see that as a big difference with the men. IMO, that is slight, especially in comparison to how much more they would get with the quad, even if it's not a particularly pretty one. And I don't think they even have to have full rotation to get half the base value. Given the low value of a triple salchow, the increase in scores from an above average GOE on a triple salchow isn't going to add much to the score in the context of how big the overall scores are. It's worth going for a quad even if you think you are going to fall.

IMO, we see a higher percentage of falls on quads than on triples. (How many people fall on a planned triple salchow versus quad sals?) There's a reason why the guys go for the quads. It's worth the risk even if they fall. And they might do an even better job on their triples if they weren't devoting so much of their energy to their quads. Of course, there are some guys that just do terrible in general under pressure, but I think it's hard to deny that quads lead to more falls.

 

[my little pony]

It is important. Like Amber said, some of Sonja's skills - like spinning in both directions - are incredibly difficult, but they aren't rewarded under the current system. If quads are given more points than triples for being more difficult, then spins in both directions should also receive more points, because that's more difficult than only spinning in one direction. The same thing with jumps - the ISI Freestyle 10 test is apparently the most difficult test in free skating because the skater has to do at least a double jump in both directions.

I think as most people max out at triples maybe some quads, jumping and spinning in different directions is something that could be used to add difficulty that may be attainable to more people than trying to do as many quads as Ilia or quints.

 

[MacMadame]

Like if someone's 3A got called clean, q and < (and yes that is a pretty extreme case but I have seen some truly bonkers calls where an obviously underrotated jump was called clean - see Bradie Tennell's 2A+3T from Shanghai Trophy a few years ago - https://youtu.be/JLv6tPIQhAk?si=5EVQzDHJQh7YcY83&t=3m05s), the base value would average out to 7.2 (8 plus 8 plus 5.6 and then divided by 3).

This seems like would be ripe for manipulation. I'd rather have cameras along the rink that the tech panel refer to and have to agree on what happened.

Think of it as the compulsory dance of figure skating.

I am and that's why I don't like it. Also, compulsory dances had prescribed music which just reinforces my objection that they wouldn't fit with the music a lot of the time.

They could start by actually judging PCS based on the published criteria. There should be larger variations in scoring of the three different components. See if that helps encourage more creativity, artistry, and well-rounded programs.

Yes!

I am going to repeat what was said above: The system isn't so broken that it needs drastic changes.

What are the actual problems we are trying to solve? So many of the ISU suggestions don't solve any problem at all. Here is what I see as the problems*:

1) Inconsistent calling of levels and jump rotations
2) PCS not used according to the rules but to rank the skaters - and the fake corridor adds to this
3) Too many unleveled elements in dance so that good skating and doing harder steps and holds are not rewarded

#1 can be solved with technology. More cameras at a minimum. #3 can be solved with rule changes. #2 is the hardest to solve. And I'm not sure the ISU wants to or they would have by now.

I don't think things like "all the programs are boring" is something that can be solved, as I have heard this complaint for at least three decades, maybe more, under both judging systems and many changes. Plus one person's boring is another person's brilliant. See this season's The Whale FD for an example.

What about skating is for old people? Expanding skating's reach would be nice. But without consistent judging, I don't see that new people who are being brought in will stick around. Also, more old people are being made every day. But, honestly, I think skaters like Alysa, Ilia and Amber have a ton of young fans. They just aren't on FSU and other message boards for the most part. But they exist.

*I didn't include abuse and toxicity in the sport because that's a whole other can of worms that isn't about rules or schedules or judging but about changing the culture.

 

[Miezekatze]

As for risk, if no one takes a risk, the sport doesn’t advance, so I’d prefer that athletes take risks.

Advance where?

Is the sport better now cause it’s all about rotating 4 times instead of 3 times? And where does it end?

I mean in other sports that are less mixed with other aspects like „artistry“ and with less subjective score it isn’t seen as an advancement to get faster and faster and higher and higher in order to „advance“ the sport.

In track and field the 100metres race, the long jump, high jump, ... ,keeps going on over the decades even if nobody advances the time or length continuesly (unless there’s doping, there’ll always be a natural limit)

In Formula 1 they don’t build even crazier cars or more dangerous tracks so the sport „advances".

In ski jumping they don’t build higher and higher jumpign ramps to get people to jump farther and farther.

In artistic gymnastics elements that are too dangerous did get banned in the past.

So why does advancing figure skating be about doing more and more rotations in the air.

I also don’t think that’s viewer friendly, cause honestly it already gets difficult to see quads properly IMO.

I think overall there needs to be a balance and for me mens is the most unbalanced discipline at the moment in regards to whats awarded (when they do 4 or 5 quads, they mostly don’t seem to have time or strength to have a choreography or transitions in the first 3/4 of the programs).

 

[MacMadame]

In track and field the 100metres race, the long jump, high jump, ... ,keeps going on over the decades even if nobody advances the time or length continuesly (unless there’s doping, there’ll always be a natural limit)

Records in track and field are being broken continuously, though. Even without artificial means.

In Formula 1 they don’t build even crazier cars or more dangerous tracks so the sport „advances".

And cars are getting faster too. They are constantly improving the cars.

In ski jumping they don’t build higher and higher jumpign ramps to get people to jump farther and farther.

Again, people are jumping farther all the time. Advances in equipment are being made. Sleeker suits and helmets, in particular.

In artistic gymnastics elements that are too dangerous did get banned in the past.

Yet new elements that are harder to do are being invented all the time.

So why does advancing figure skating be about doing more and more rotations in the air.

All sports try to advance technically. Doing 4 revolutions in the air is a technical advancement. It is not dangerous to do quads. It's exciting to see if someone is going to do one and land it since it's hard. It's not the only way the sport can advance but I don't see any reason to limit this particular technical advancement.

I do think it would be helpful to educate the public about how hard other things are. To notice when spins slow down or aren't centered or don't do harder positions. To point out that doing a lift where one skater is holding up another by one hand while turning and the skater being held up is also moving around is freaking hard.

Step sequences are going to be harder to educate so this is where commentators can help by listing the moves (rocker, chotaw, etc) and how hard they are and pointing out when skaters are changing levels vs. just doing it all upright. But even without that, audiences get excited by step sequences regardless of how hard it is or isn't.