Chinese skating news & social media updates pt. 5, 2023 onwards
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Let's call them "The Better Wang/Liu" or the "Only Wang/Liu to Exist".
I had not realized Luan Bo had retired.
Also I think it should be noted that a major challenge for junior pairs this year is the death spiral being the Backwards Outside in the SP. Even at the last Junior Worlds only 1 team attempted BoDs in the free and only got level 2 on it. I expect a lot of junior pairs on the JGP this season to struggle with getting their BoDs validated.
The state of the Chinese juniors' BoDs aren't great either. Only Yang/Deng got a BoDs3, everyone else was level 2 or lower. But now all of the (formerly) Luan Bo pairs are attempting FoDs in the free with varying levels of success. Guo/Zhang and Zhang/Feng still have the most consistent and well executed FoDs capable of hitting level 4. Zhang/Huang only got a base level on theirs and struggle with hitting the low position (very much reminiscent of Peng/Jin's ugly FoDs). I think Zhang/Huang should revert to BiDs in the free, though I can see why they're going for it. FoDs4 will be a major advantage for the babies against the others who can only do FiDs/BiDs and struggle to get their BoDs validated.
The state of the Chinese juniors' BoDs aren't great either. Only Yang/Deng got a BoDs3, everyone else was level 2 or lower. But now all of the (formerly) Luan Bo pairs are attempting FoDs in the free with varying levels of success. Guo/Zhang and Zhang/Feng still have the most consistent and well executed FoDs capable of hitting level 4. Zhang/Huang only got a base level on theirs and struggle with hitting the low position (very much reminiscent of Peng/Jin's ugly FoDs). I think Zhang/Huang should revert to BiDs in the free, though I can see why they're going for it. FoDs4 will be a major advantage for the babies against the others who can only do FiDs/BiDs and struggle to get their BoDs validated.
Luan Bo has retired and Sui has not taken over (she is still choreographing for the Qiqihar teams, though not as much as before. I also wanna yell at her for the Bolero program but that's another story...). I don't want to panic and say that the promising babies are screwed but that's exactly how I feel.
I don't know if Sui should immediately take over, I don't believe she has any coaching experience. I totally thought it would eventually happen, but then I also thought Luan Bo would stay and let her be the "apprentice". (yes, I see you think Luan Bo's replacement are pretty crap, but that doesn't mean we should want someone who's also completely untested as their replacement)
She should test a personal project junior pair first. Like IDK if it'll happen, but that's what I'd have made her do this season.
Actually, my point is not whether Sui should or should not take over, but that she doesn't appear to want to take over. I think she's more keen on staying purely as a choreographer rather than a coach.
Of course imo she would still be a better option than pretty much everyone else. S/H are literally the only ones besides Luan Bo who know and master the higher pairs technical content like 3FTh, Tano twist etc. No one from the Yao Bin camp including Shen/Zhao has even attempted 3FTh before. Ding Yang may be from the Luan Bo camp but she retired more than a decade ago with no coaching experience in high level pairs before Peng/Wang...
raruki
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Guan is even worse than Zhang Tianci.
Wonder why Han Bing doesn't want to coach pairs skating anymore.
Wonder why Han Bing doesn't want to coach pairs skating anymore.
Why do you think Zhang Tianci is a bad coach?
He stabilized triple toe loop for Wang and Zhu
He is a technician. Mastered all the triples when he was a single skater.
His wife is a retired Russian figure skater who can also advise him in coaching
Also, Zhang Tianci has been coaching for quite a long time after his retirement as pairs skater with Peng.
His few competitions with Peng are quite decent
If Zhang Hao hadn't chosen Peng after his first partner was forced to retire - the team Peng/Zhang Tianci could be an interesting one with great potential
- Formed a team consisting of a 10 year old girl with a 23 year old guy
- Let them train quad twist and quint twist
- Post said training video as bragging rights
- Used the lack of age limits in domestic competitions and the physical advantage of an adult tossing a little girl to get senior domestic places and medals. This team would never be able to compete internationally but can place second in the Champions competition which can grant them direct university entry (something that Li Ze'en hadn't achieved before partnering with a small child)
- Once again used said "domestic achievements" as bragging rights on how he created a "Nationally second place team" within three years
- Using such "gaming the system" methods as a way to advertise his pairs program
Overall a psycho who thinks pairs should have 7+ years age gap (that's the age range he's looking for for his students right now) and wanna-be influencer who isn't afraid to do cray cray stuff for clicks. His responses on social media are also kinda wild.
Because Guan can't teach anything at all. He was Zhao Hongbo's sidekick and the national team's pairs jump coach during the Beijing quad (and we all know how great the Chinese pairs' jumps are...). He has zero clue on pairs technique having never done pairs himself. All the teams that he's had under him (Wang/Huang, Zhang/Yang, Wang/Jia etc.) never did well. He messes the pairs technique more than stabilize them imo. He's also responsible for the doomed-to-fail cross-discipline talent selection program that finds older kids from gymnastics or other sports and get them into skating and pairs. It's been proven over and over that this just does not work but he was still at it post-Beijing I guess because there's some sort of funding associated with this kind of program.
I don't know if I would say Guan is worse than ZTC. One is useless and the other is cray. I would not touch either with a stick.
There was something wonky about all of the junior pairs' throws. IDK how to put it, but it just doesn't seem as smooth and consistent as before. In the second warmup group for the FP there were more falls than landed ones from teams who were always very solid on their throws. I will reserve judgement on whether this is due to the coaching change or just because of nerves at an important competition.
I am fine with calling Guan useless, but I was confused as to what he'd done to be called worse than someone who'd paired up a 10 year old with a 23 year old...
Samurina
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ofc pairs is more than just jumps but sbs cleanliness and throws even separate the good from great teams. lots of teams with good pair elements but lacking those like Panfilova/Rylov did well in lower-level comps but honestly stood no chance in winning serious senior medals. hocke/kunkel faced similar problems with the 3S all season as they lost out on numerous podiums because lack of consistent sbs 3. Also having a sbs 3 oftentimes, but not always, requires a certain benchmark of PCS.
Same can be said for teams with good SBS and lacking pair elements. What's the point of junior pairs event summary that mainly revolves around the quality of SBS?
So yes they need to work on everything hmmm. I would say quite the opposite. Zhang/Feng and Guo/Zhang have really good foundations and need to work on their SBS. It's amusing to me how often people praise new pairs made of 2 single skaters and their amazing SBS jumps despite low quality or non-existent pair elements saying "they have so much potential". On the other hand pairs with good pair elements and weak jumps often get "they won't do well because they're bad at jumps". Why do people assume it's easier to train and gain pair elements than jumps? and hence think that pairs with good SBS and weak pair elements have more potential than pairs with good pair elements and weak SBS? That is simply not the case. If you like watching jumps then stick to singles.
This is my issue with people saying Mishina/Galliamov were amazing put in the most succinct way btw, lol.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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I'm definitely going to have to check out the play list for all these junior teams later this weekend. I'm excited to jump into the discussion and evaluation of these teams!
Please do~ Most teams are recycling their programs from last season so it might be familiar if you've seen them before, but Zhang/Feng's new SP is very charming with an interesting music choice. I'm kinda meh on Zhang/Huang's new SP but at least it's better than Bolero (!!!). Gosh I'm so disappointed that the only new FP we see here had to be freaking BOLERO
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Okay, as promised... And, what does it say about my love of pairs and the complete lack of any other skating to watch at this time of the year that I'm watching Chinese junior pairs????
SP review -
Zhang/Huang – really nice 3tw; was he even fully rotated on the SBS 2a? SBS spins were okay – not fantastic but not bad by any means (even by senior standards, I’d consider them passable) – but maybe the element wasn’t valid? I need to see the protocols because the tech tracker says no. Presentation is a little bland but pleasant enough. There wasn’t anything glaringly bad about their style, it’s just generic but I’m inclined to give a new to the international scene junior team a bit of a pass and a season to develop some personality.
Zhang/Feng – crashy 3tw – she was over his shoulder and not very high – they need to work on that; SBS 2a – was she fully rotated? Looking over @otisgear's notes – nope; decent throw 3s; they’re pairs stroking is a bit out of unison – this is really evident in the step sequence. They were also really far apart in the SBS spins.
Between these two teams, I think the judges got the placement right. Zhang/Huang have a bit more power and are definitely stronger in PCS than Zhang/Feng – they have more power and unity in their skating skills, and I’d call it a draw on presentation and composition between both teams. While one might claim that Zhang/Feng were clean in the SP… their 3tw was a lot worse than Zhang/Huang, and the throw was small, even for a junior team.
Yang/Deng – nice 3tw but SBS 2F won’t get you anywhere, not even in junior pairs internationally; oh my God – those SBS spins are atrocious! They need to up their tech content if they want to warrant one of those host TBD spots at CoC.
Guo/Zhang – how old is she? 10? She does not look old enough to be out on the JGP and he looks to be at least 6-7 years older than her. 3tw was okay, landed a bit over his shoulder but I’m guessing she’s just now learning it as young as she looks so it will probably get better in the future. Huge throw 3s which… Well, yeah, given that she’s like half his size. He looks pretty solid in the lift, which is nice, but I’d like to see him lifting someone closer to him in size before I say his bladework is safe. These judges are being HARSH on the SBS spins. It sort of makes my pairs-fan heart happy because those were not good spins and they were, like most of the rest of these teams, far too apart to my liking. Gonna say that this team is a pass for me – the size differential and the apparent age difference plus the lack of personality from either of them… Get them each new partners and we’ll see.
Wang/Liu (the jr pairs edition!) – well, a 2tw and SBS 2f are definitely not going to get you out of China competitively. She looked totally lost as she fell out of the throw 3s. She’s giving me a bit of a Qing Pang-ridiculously thin vibe – not quite that emaciated but also not anywhere near Qing’s skating skills so she’s really got nothing going for her here. They took the tech tracker off the screen before their SBS spins which were really close but completely out-of-synch.
Chen/Wang – hey, what’s this? Some personality in their choreo & interpretation? 2tw was okay but they’ll need to upgrade if they wish to be competitive internationally even on the junior circuit. Far apart on their SBS 2a but landed; throw 2s is on the small side and I wonder if she scrapped her free foot on the ice on the landing; the lift was sketchy going up but he got it under control, then a bit clunky on the exit. Big miss on the SBS spins – she nearly fell out of one position and then they lost all synchronicity. There is some charm to them but it’s very clear they’re a really new team.
I’ll be back later after I watch the FS programs to give my impressions/opinions.
SP review -
Zhang/Huang – really nice 3tw; was he even fully rotated on the SBS 2a? SBS spins were okay – not fantastic but not bad by any means (even by senior standards, I’d consider them passable) – but maybe the element wasn’t valid? I need to see the protocols because the tech tracker says no. Presentation is a little bland but pleasant enough. There wasn’t anything glaringly bad about their style, it’s just generic but I’m inclined to give a new to the international scene junior team a bit of a pass and a season to develop some personality.
Zhang/Feng – crashy 3tw – she was over his shoulder and not very high – they need to work on that; SBS 2a – was she fully rotated? Looking over @otisgear's notes – nope; decent throw 3s; they’re pairs stroking is a bit out of unison – this is really evident in the step sequence. They were also really far apart in the SBS spins.
Between these two teams, I think the judges got the placement right. Zhang/Huang have a bit more power and are definitely stronger in PCS than Zhang/Feng – they have more power and unity in their skating skills, and I’d call it a draw on presentation and composition between both teams. While one might claim that Zhang/Feng were clean in the SP… their 3tw was a lot worse than Zhang/Huang, and the throw was small, even for a junior team.
Yang/Deng – nice 3tw but SBS 2F won’t get you anywhere, not even in junior pairs internationally; oh my God – those SBS spins are atrocious! They need to up their tech content if they want to warrant one of those host TBD spots at CoC.
Guo/Zhang – how old is she? 10? She does not look old enough to be out on the JGP and he looks to be at least 6-7 years older than her. 3tw was okay, landed a bit over his shoulder but I’m guessing she’s just now learning it as young as she looks so it will probably get better in the future. Huge throw 3s which… Well, yeah, given that she’s like half his size. He looks pretty solid in the lift, which is nice, but I’d like to see him lifting someone closer to him in size before I say his bladework is safe. These judges are being HARSH on the SBS spins. It sort of makes my pairs-fan heart happy because those were not good spins and they were, like most of the rest of these teams, far too apart to my liking. Gonna say that this team is a pass for me – the size differential and the apparent age difference plus the lack of personality from either of them… Get them each new partners and we’ll see.
Wang/Liu (the jr pairs edition!) – well, a 2tw and SBS 2f are definitely not going to get you out of China competitively. She looked totally lost as she fell out of the throw 3s. She’s giving me a bit of a Qing Pang-ridiculously thin vibe – not quite that emaciated but also not anywhere near Qing’s skating skills so she’s really got nothing going for her here. They took the tech tracker off the screen before their SBS spins which were really close but completely out-of-synch.
Chen/Wang – hey, what’s this? Some personality in their choreo & interpretation? 2tw was okay but they’ll need to upgrade if they wish to be competitive internationally even on the junior circuit. Far apart on their SBS 2a but landed; throw 2s is on the small side and I wonder if she scrapped her free foot on the ice on the landing; the lift was sketchy going up but he got it under control, then a bit clunky on the exit. Big miss on the SBS spins – she nearly fell out of one position and then they lost all synchronicity. There is some charm to them but it’s very clear they’re a really new team.
I’ll be back later after I watch the FS programs to give my impressions/opinions.
Regarding the SBS spins: in typical (incompetent) Cfed style they failed to update the domestic rules. The results from the congress is that pairs should do a pair spin in the short and SBS spin the free (which is what the scoring system is set to) but the domestic rules still had SBS spin in the SP. So when the tech panel keyed in SBS spin in the short everyone's spin became an invalid element....(and then they panicked and took the tech box out of the screen for some of the teams...)
Anyway, I think I should've posted the ages of the junior pairs, just to put things in perspective:
Zhang/Huang: 17/23 (was an age limbo team before the new age rules passed)
Zhang/Feng: 13/16
Yang/Deng: 16/19
Guo/Zhang: 13/17
Wang/Liu: 16/19
Chen/Wang: unknown/19 (she's probably the tiniest out of all the pair girls so I'm guessing she leans towards the lower end probably ~13)
Guo/Zhang's age difference is not bad at all despite the size difference. He's just really tall but obviously still has a baby face. I don't see why that's an issue since she obviously still has to grow a lot.
Chen/Wang's program was a bit iffy because they recycled Wang's program with his previous partner Shi last season...(Shi was informed and apparently unhappy about it but they still went ahead and used the program). This felt kinda weird. Here is the program with the original team. This program was already very well received last year.
Anyway, I think I should've posted the ages of the junior pairs, just to put things in perspective:
Zhang/Huang: 17/23 (was an age limbo team before the new age rules passed)
Zhang/Feng: 13/16
Yang/Deng: 16/19
Guo/Zhang: 13/17
Wang/Liu: 16/19
Chen/Wang: unknown/19 (she's probably the tiniest out of all the pair girls so I'm guessing she leans towards the lower end probably ~13)
Guo/Zhang's age difference is not bad at all despite the size difference. He's just really tall but obviously still has a baby face. I don't see why that's an issue since she obviously still has to grow a lot.
Chen/Wang's program was a bit iffy because they recycled Wang's program with his previous partner Shi last season...(Shi was informed and apparently unhappy about it but they still went ahead and used the program). This felt kinda weird. Here is the program with the original team. This program was already very well received last year.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Okay, the age difference for Guo/Zhang isn't so bad. I'd question whether not she's really 13 but then I remember my younger niece was super-tiny and baby-faced until she was probably about 17, so I guess I can't really question if Guo is 13 or not.
I do agree, btw, with your assessment about Zhang/Huang probably not scoring as well internationally as they did here based upon what they showed. Depending on how much improvement has been made by some of the European teams that were at JWC last year, they may manage a top 10 finish (presuming 3 US teams, 3 Canadian teams, Sierova/Khobta, Napolitano/Comi are all in the top 10, that leaves room for 2 other teams).
I think the general expectations for Zhang/Huang is much higher than a top 10 finish
Most people are expecting jgpf/jwc podium even, which is not out of the question should they go clean but their consistency isn't great. They (him, in particular) are as prone to messing up the SBS as you would expect from a Chinese pair. And now their throw, which used to be very solid, seems wobblier than before too.Personally I don't really care for Zhang/Huang because I don't believe 23 year olds should be in juniors competing with the babies. He's very much like a Chinese Berulava to me, having competed on the JGP 5 years ago and also in senior internationals. I would much rather the spot go to the younger ones so that they get international exposure even if they are not as good as Zhang/Huang. These age rules are just taking away opportunity from actual juniors imo.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Eh, I don't seem them being super-competitive on the senior scene if she can't land the throws consistently. They are definitely NOT on the same level as Metelkina/Berulava last season - and they're not even really close to Flores/Wang either, nor Kemp/Elizarov if they're healthy. They may be competitive with Ariano Kent/Laliberte Laurent, Desrochers/Thrasher, and Sierova/Khobta. But that also doesn't take into account what sort of progress teams like Napolitano/Comi, Shimizu/Honda, Telemaque/Coulon, and several US teams have made. I wouldn't rule them out to make the JGPF but I certainly wouldn't put them in the JWC podium contenders list (Williams/Lewer have already said they'd be open to another JWC this season if they don't make any of the other ISU Championships teams for the USA).I think the general expectations for Zhang/Huang is much higher than a top 10 finish
Personally I don't really care for Zhang/Huang because I don't believe 23 year olds should be in juniors competing with the babies. He's very much like a Chinese Berulava to me, having competed on the JGP 5 years ago and also in senior internationals. I would much rather the spot go to the younger ones so that they get international exposure even if they are not as good as Zhang/Huang. These age rules are just taking away opportunity from actual juniors imo.
I agree that the general Chinese audience overrate Zhang/Huang's potential on the international scene. That's why I say I would rather see the babies get the opportunity to go out in juniors. Their tech content on paper is probably on par with the top teams you mentioned here minus M/B, the thing with juniors is always who skates best on the day.
As you've said we don't know what progress they've made, but as of last season Zhang/Huang's tech on paper is definitely way above these teams (again, they should be because he shouldn't be in juniors). I can see T/C and W/L probably make the most progress from these teams. Napolitano/Comi, Shimizu/Honda are in the "good at jumps, bad at pair elements" category which imo is harder to see significant progress in pairs within a short time.
Karen-W
YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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I think you might be surprised at both Napolitano/Comi and Shimizu/Honda's progress since JWC. NapComi are training at IceLab at least part time and I expect they've probably made rapid progress on their pairs elements training with all those top teams there. ShiHon are in Oakville with Bruno Marcotte and there are some good teams in that group that will help push them with getting their pairs elements. Six months is an eternity in junior pairs. Flores/Wang made rapid progress between 2023 Nats and the JGP last fall.
I eagerly await their performances. I think this JGP season will be very interesting for pairs, way way better than the drought that was two seasons ago
I was kinda confused when I saw this, because I don't remember Zhang/Feng's throw to ever be really small. Thought I remembered wrong, until I saw this photo. Most definitely not a small throw, certainly not by junior standards (compared to those like say, Shimuzu/Honda where she literally jumps by herself with him lightly touching her hips)
Do the parents of these two have nothing to say? Or are they the ones making them be coached by this man (as opposed to it simply being ordered by the higher ups in the Jilin team)?
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