Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[MsZem]

If that's your logic, you should also mention that they won the freedance handily at 2010 Olys. And most clearly won the FD at the 2018 Olys in the eyes of every human in that arena...except a few judges, by the slightest of margins.

That's... not how it works. Skating results are not based on popularity contests. And if they were, I hereby crown Daisuke Takahashi and Davis/White as the 2012 World Champions.

I think V/M are GOATS at least in the post-6.0/IJS era.

Yeah, I think that's fair. V/M are (at least for the time being) the most accomplished team under the IJS, and adapted very well to the changes in the structure and scoring while also developing their style.

 

[Ohyes]

Ice network agrees

 

[Judy]

You have to look at their medal count too though. Very impressive.

http://virtuemoir.com/site/index.php/about-us/

 

[Icetigger]

Another way of seeing V/M's relative weakness in the freedance is here....

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/phsdfd.htm

The three times V/M held the world record for the freedance were at events where they then immediately had the W/R taken from them by D/W, two times of which by significant margins. They have never held the W/R for the freedance for any extended period in their whole career., i.e more than ten minutes or so.

I would have expected a team that was called the G.O.A.T to have held the W/R in both the short and the dance of the IJS period for an extended period. But of course they were never consistently at the top their whole career, part from in 2017 when they win every event they entered, whereas D/W were consistently at the top for two whole years, and another whole year, so it's no surprise that that should be reflected in the FD world records.

The were of course very good at the short dance, but they didn't hold the WR more or for a longer time than D/W, who held both the Freedance W/R and the Shortdance W/R for extended periods (from 2011/12 Gpf until retirement in their case for the sd, with a few minutes where it was held by V/M at GPF 2013/14) (something that P/C have now also accomplished, and they didn't even have to hit all the levels because their overall skating is more highly rated overall by the ISU judges). I don't think one can say V/M were the greatest under IJS even, with that sort of record.

I'm not really considering body of work when I look at V/M as G.O.A.T or the IJS era, because for me that's a question of taste, and they are generally not to my taste and it would be unfair of me to do so.

Not considering personal taste I rate both G/P and T/D above them and them about equal with D/W and other pre T/D ice dancers. Taking in to account personal taste, P/C, the Duchesnays, D/W and K/P would all o'erleap them.

if it were Best of all Time I'd have T/D and P/C equal, wherein I was judging solely the quality of artistic experience a team had to offer, and not taking in any competitive statistics. I'm also happy to make that judgement now despite P/C only having completed their first quad in senior and still being competitive, because I do believe there is such a thing as quality.

 

[forthewin]

Yeah, right. The current SD holder got the record when they can't even hit all the levels. That tells you how much a joke of the record is.

 

[Twilight1]

Gold medals. Their short dances were so strong and superior to their competitiors they could error and still win.

They did it to D&W and P&C.

That tells me by point total they were the best team. Gold medals talk.

 

[Emdee]

Besides their stellar performances began from the time they were juniors. It is their whole body of work, medals, consistent time at the top that made them the Greatest of all time.

 

[dramagrrl]

Nice try, @Icetigger! Keep grasping!

 

[Rossig]

If you read the thread, I think the saltiness of the anti-GOAT contingent far outweighs the “people peeved off when people think they are not”.

Nobody has been posting in this thread since the beginning of April, but it's you who brought this thread back. i guess it's because you wanted to get response of other people. Would you only be ok if everybody agreed with your opinion that VM are the greatest of all the time? Why can't you accept that some of us don't agree with this opinion? Because it's an opinion, not a fact as some VM fans suggest.

 

[Twilight1]

I agree Rossig- I have do doubt we will have this convo again for another team soon (P&C)

It is off season so tons of old posts are going to come back up. We are bored because we have no comps to vent/get excited about.

 

[Golden1]

Calling PC one of the GOAT's after one Olympic cycle is very telling .

I enjoy the fact that some people are so peeved by VM being called GOAT's that they look up all kinds of numbers and statistics to prove them wrong. To me there is no debate. Winning all these medals in such a subjective sport says it all. They are the GOAT and their skills, creativity, musicality and personalities will be missed.

 

[Peepsquick]

Nobody is calling P/C Goat. I doubt very much that they'd even enjoyed the title or the speculation. Not their style! and thank God for that.
The rekindling of this conversation has more to do with many of us having a bad case of withdrawal after the frantic season.

 

[RoseRed]

Nobody has been posting in this thread since the beginning of April, but it's you who brought this thread back. i guess it's because you wanted to get response of other people. Would you only be ok if everybody agreed with your opinion that VM are the greatest of all the time? Why can't you accept that some of us don't agree with this opinion? Because it's an opinion, not a fact as some VM fans suggest.

To be fair, it was brought back because Tanith called them the G.O.A.T.s in the IceNetwork article. If such a thread exists, it is reasonable to post in it about that.

 

[Golden1]

Nobody is calling P/C Goat. I doubt very much that they'd even enjoyed the title or the speculation. Not their style! and thank God for that.
The rekindling of this conversation has more to do with many of us having a bad case of withdrawal after the frantic season.

Yeah, Icetigger did.

 

[Judy]

Calling PC one of the GOAT's after one Olympic cycle is very telling .

I enjoy the fact that some people are so peeved by VM being called GOAT's that they look up all kinds of numbers and statistics to prove them wrong. To me there is no debate. Winning all these medals in such a subjective sport says it all. They are the GOAT and their skills, creativity, musicality and personalities will be missed.

They aren’t even finished yet lol so imo don’t even qualify.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I’m not really sure specific scores or comparisons between marks in different competitions/quads/systems can be used all that productively to debate this when everyone who follows ice dance or any other discipline closely enough knows that what is put on the ice is not all that matters when it comes to judging. The fact that we seriously discuss ‘momentum’ when predicting outcomes should be evidence enough for this.

https://youtu.be/CQ_jc2oYLnk
Seeing as we’re talking about V/M, the midline step sequence in this is probably the greatest one ever performed. The difficulty of those turns, the depth of those edges, the unison, character, timing, curves, movement etc is just in a league of its own. It’s flawless. Yet if we were discussing GOAT step sequences, would we have to dismiss this example because a judge with an agenda on that SD panel gave them +1 GOE for it (gotta love the days of anonymity)?

People like Tanith are talking about them now in a way that was previously only reserved for T/D. How I wish we still had a proper pro circuit!

 

[Twilight1]

V&M are bar none the best in history for the original dance/ short dance. They were so incredibly versatile and strong in every dance from 2005+

 

[VGThuy]

I wish they could have stayed another season just to see if they could win the “rhythm dance” so they could add that to their list of accomplishments.

 

[dramagrrl]

Nobody has been posting in this thread since the beginning of April, but it's you who brought this thread back. i guess it's because you wanted to get response of other people. Would you only be ok if everybody agreed with your opinion that VM are the greatest of all the time? Why can't you accept that some of us don't agree with this opinion? Because it's an opinion, not a fact as some VM fans suggest.

LMAO. I don’t particularly care who thinks VM are GOAT and who doesn’t. If some Torvill and Dean fans came in here and made a valid argument, I would disagree with them because T/D just weren’t to my personal taste and I was a toddler during their main era of skating, but I fully acknowledge their greatness and would accept that person’s opinion. It’s the nitpicking, denial and pure saltiness from a certain contingent that cannot stand to see anyone call VM the GOAT that amuses me greatly.

 

[Kmeki]

When I see arguments against VM being GOATs because they “only” having one undefeated season to DW’s two, while I’m impressed with DWs consistency, it reminds me of how equally impressed I am with VM’s perseverance.

The fact that they traded titles with another dominant team like DW all while having to deal with two major injuries/surgeries in their career, and were still able to accomplish what they did, is a real testament to their talent.

Their medal count is impressive, the fact that they had two riveting rivalries in their career, and were competitive in 3 Olympic cycles is impressive. But that they did all that while skating injured one season, missing pretty much a whole other season due to injury, and having to change their skating mechanics just to be able to skate is even more impressive.

To me their medal count and longevity (not just longevity but being top 2 for almost a decade) alone is enough to consider them GOATs. But I’m just really impressed with their perseverance and their insane talent. At the end of the day people prefer what they prefer but VM has certainly made their mark and Ice Dance is fortunate to have had them and their brand of skating for as long as it did.

 

[Japanfan]

Their medal count is impressive, the fact that they had two riveting rivalries in their career, and were competitive in 3 Olympic cycles is impressive. But that they did all that while skating injured one season, missing pretty much a whole other season due to injury, and having to change their skating mechanics just to be able to skate is even more impressive.

To me their medal count and longevity (not just longevity but being top 2 for almost a decade) alone is enough to consider them GOATs. But I’m just really impressed with their perseverance and their insane talent. At the end of the day people prefer what they prefer but VM has certainly made their mark and Ice Dance is fortunate to have had them and their brand of skating for as long as it did.

I would add to that the range of free dances they have explored and performed. And as mentioned, they have always been particularly strong in the short dance/OD. I particularly loved their flamenco SD in 2010. And although I hated the music to Hip Hip Chin Chin, they performed to it brilliantly.

And Tessa's arms are always a thing of beauty. IMO the expressiveness and elegance of her arms distinguishes her among ice dancers.

 

[VGThuy]

I get if some disagree with V/M being GOAT, but what I don't get is why some seem to have a hard time wrapping their brain around the idea that other people do see them as GOATs and recognizing that there are strong arguments to be made about it.

 

[overedge]

Comparing the number of medals as a measure of greatness is also misleading, because the number of high-level competitions across time has changed. E.g. when Torvill and Dean were competing, there was no GPF, there was no Four Continents, and there was no team event at the Olympics. So saying that one team is more GOAT-worthy than another because that team has more medals isn't a valid comparison unless the type/number of competitions is also comparable.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Torvill and Dean are the greatest. Virtue and Scott, while fantastic, do not even come near to the innovation and creativity of T/D. Not even close.

 

[Twilight1]

Well here is an interesting fact. T&D stayed in ice dance as professionals. Knew the rules when they retired and tried to come back for an Oly Gold and left with an Olympic bronze.

V&M may not have come back 10 years later but they accomplished what T&D couldn't.

(See how stuff can be manipulated to prove a point?)

 

[bonmil]

For sure an impressive palmares, a great longevity and a beautiful unisson and technique.
The only problem is that they were surpassed by Davis&White, and by Papadakis&Cizeron. Actually I find Papadakis&Cizeron to be better ice dancers. So, for sure, V&M the best Olympic palmares, but GOAT, not sure.

No PC dance to the same dance every time. They are great ice dancers but not great innovators. D&W got lucky

 

[MAXSwagg]

Well here is an interesting fact. T&D stayed in ice dance as professionals. Knew the rules when they retired and tried to come back for an Oly Gold and left with an Olympic bronze.

V&M may not have come back 10 years later but they accomplished what T&D couldn't.

(See how stuff can be manipulated to prove a point?)

V/M had it 1000x easier in their come-back compared to T/D, both with judges and the system.

 

[bonmil]

Given that T/D, K/P, and G/P did not have an opportunity to win Olympic team medals, total medals is hardly a reasonable way to determine who is/was best. As for the rest, I'm pretty sure that Torvill and Dean never competed at JW.

There is more to greatness than winning Olympic medals. Remember that Castelli/Shnapir are Olympic medallists, and Kurt Browning is not.

Aljona is, of course, the greatest. And some of her programs have been better dance programs than actual dance programs.

Really?

 

[Japanfan]

Torvill and Dean are the greatest. Virtue and Scott, while fantastic, do not even come near to the innovation and creativity of T/D. Not even close.

You do understand that this is 'IMO', yes?

V/M had it 1000x easier in their come-back compared to T/D, both with judges and the system.

The judges weren't just going to give it to V/M over P/C when they returned. V/M had to earn it. Even though they won the last Worlds, the judges clearly indicated this win was no guarantee of a preference. This was particularly evident at the GPF and again at the Olympics. When the judges posted that monster score for P/C in the free, they indicated IMO that they were still favoring P/C for Gold. V/M had to demand their due by skating ML with total passion, commitment and conviction. Even with that, they won by under a point.

I think the judges may have even surprised themselves when they gave V/M the title. In the end, I think it may have come down to skate order.

 

[overedge]

I think the judges may have even surprised themselves when they gave V/M the title. In the end, I think it may have come down to skate order.

If you mean at the Olympics, I think it came down to Gabby's wardrobe malfunction in the short, and the impact that had on how the program was performed (e.g. not going "all out" for fear that Gabby's top would completely fall down). P/C did win the long, so without the wardrobe malfunction they might have won the short too.