Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[Japanfan]

V&M won 2 Olympic golds (I am not going to mention the team event), and performed well enough for a strong argument to be made that they could have won 3. K&P never had a chance in 84, and while many thought they were better than B&B in certain seasons, fewer really thought they were better in 88. Not detracting from their significant achievements, G&P kinda lucked out when the Winter Olympics switched quads. With no change, they would have won in 96, but would they have won in 00?

The biggest obstacle for V&M is they were very rarely ever DOMINANT. It was rarely NID that they would win a major event, except for 2010 and 2017 Worlds. They lost at least one event in every season, except 16-17. And even in that season, they lost the FD portion at Worlds. None of their World winning performances were them at their best.

I think at the very least, they are the best SD ice dance ever. It shows off their greatest skill, which is their versatility and ability to dance to all rhythms.

While I do agree that they were very rarely dominant, I am not sure that they never performed their FD to its best at Worlds. That certainly was the case for the Pink Floyd, but that was because Tessa was injured.

Valse Triste in 2007 was a masterpiece in my opinion (of performance and nuance, if not technical complexity), but I don't know whether the Worlds performance of it was their best. I saw it live at the first Skate Canada competition I attended, and was blown away by it - it was first introduction to V/M and love at first sight.

The fact that they rarely dominated was because of their neck-to-neck rivalry with D/W. IMO that made both teams better.

 

[briancoogaert]

Rankings back in the 80's were a lot due to compusories.
And T&D were better than B&B at them.
I also find many B&B's compulsories to be better than K&P's !

 

[gk_891]

Rankings back in the 80's were a lot due to compusories.
And T&D were better than B&B at them.
I also find many B&B's compulsories to be better than K&P's !

Some of B&B's compulsories were indeed better than K&P's. When I was younger, I was often focused on K&P's superior line and posture that I often lost focus on the steps and patterns. And over the last few years, I've come to realize that B&B were very strong at tracing out their patterns on the ice. Not to mention their choctaws were very very strong too.

What I found interesting about K&P was that for a team with very strong technical abilities, some of their compulsories were surprisingly weak. While there were some dances that they absolutely rocked (e.g. Tango Romantica, Starlight Waltz, Viennese Waltz, etc.), their Kilian and Rhumba were not very strong. I remember Betty Calloway mentioned at the 1989 Europeans during their Rhumba CD their skating was beautifully together but their double choctaw was very poor. You contrast their double choctaw with B&B's from the 1984 Olympics which was very strong. Marina also doesn't do a good job with the crossed open choctaw in the Kilian CD either while B&B's skated theirs to perfection.

It seems like almost all teams who trained under Dubova though had very poor choctaws. I remember U&Z's Rhumba at the 1989 Europeans was amazingly shallow. They were like straight lines. With Grishuk & Platov's double choctaw (which they demonstrated at the 1995 and 1997 Worlds), I liked their huge widestep and the first step (left forward outside edge) looked good, their right back outside edge was not strong at all. Both K&P and G&P seemed to do fine with the closed choctaw though in the Blues CD whereas U&Z often had trouble with it (to my eyes anyways).

 

[VGThuy]

I think a lot of it had to do with B/B have really excellent glide and power. K/P don't have the same sort of glide that B/B had. Despite that it was because of the OSP and FD where people noted that they were strong technical ice dancers (sounds like a certain team I've been championing these days). I think K/P in the OSP and FD, they were really able to show their technical prowess and complexity and thus difficulty in other ways. It sort of shows you that having strong glide and edges is only one piece of the puzzle in determining which teams are strong technical skaters, especially during that time. I also found K/P's compulsories to be weaker by 1992 than they were before, but they luckily were competing against another Dubova team who probably had similar issues and the Duchesnays, who were really weak in compulsories and Isabelle was not on the same level technically all-around so their programs weren't able to compete that way either.

I do think that if the actual edges and doing the steps completely correctly was emphasized back then the way they are now with the keypoints, then all those teams would have known to work on those aspects and wouldn't be judged as harshly like 26 years later by fans who have learned from IJS-style judging. Wasn't it Platov who said back then the judges didn't care so much about the edges being absolutely perfect (that didn't mean it had to be completely wrong) but they looked at the dance as a whole and also judged line, extension, character, speed, timing, etc. I know all that is still important and part of the judging but most of the emphasis seems to be on the edges. Very rarely do we get a timing calls for top teams, though they do happen as the Shibs in the 2017-2018 GPF can attest.

 

[gk_891]

I think a lot of it had to do with B/B have really excellent glide and power. K/P don't have the same sort of glide that B/B had. Despite that it was because of the OSP and FD where people noted that they were strong technical ice dancers (sounds like a certain team I've been championing these days). I think K/P in the OSP and FD, they were really able to show their technical prowess and complexity and thus difficulty in other ways. It sort of shows you that having strong glide and edges is only one piece of the puzzle in determining which teams are strong technical skaters, especially during that time. I also found K/P's compulsories to be weaker by 1992 than they were before, but they luckily were competing against another Dubova team who probably had similar issues and the Duchesnays, who were really weak in compulsories and Isabelle was not on the same level technically all-around so their programs weren't able to compete that way either.

I do think that if the actual edges and doing the steps completely correctly was emphasized back then the way they are now with the keypoints, then all those teams would have known to work on those aspects and wouldn't be judged as harshly like 26 years later by fans who have learned from IJS-style judging. Wasn't it Platov who said back then the judges didn't care so much about the edges being absolutely perfect (that didn't mean it had to be completely wrong) but they looked at the dance as a whole and also judged line, extension, character, speed, timing, etc. I know all that is still important and part of the judging but most of the emphasis seems to be on the edges. Very rarely do we get a timing calls for top teams, though they do happen as the Shibs in the 2017-2018 GPF can attest.

Do you think if B&B had a better choreographer, they could've also shown amazing content with good execution like K&P did in their OSPs and FDs? When I think of K&P from 1985 to 1990, they had such amazingly precision with their blade work to the point where it was almost surgical. Not to mention the range of steps, turns, edges, and handholds. I sometimes wonder what B&B's skating would've looked like if their free dances had been well constructed in that regard.

Besides some of their compulsories during their Dubova era, the one negative thing I will say about K&P is that in 1988 and 1989, while their posture and line improved even more during that time, their speed and ice coverage went down quite a bit. If you compare Hungarian Rhapsody and My Fair Lady to their Mack the Knife Program in 1989 and even their Beatles Medley program in 1988, their speed and ice coverage looks weaker in 88 and 89 IMO. And if you look at their Westminster Waltz from the 1987 Worlds to the one they did at the 1989 Worlds, the one they did in 1989 showcased superior grace, posture, and line but the pattern they made on the ice looked smaller and more conservative to me. And in their 1989 version, they noticeably lose some speed and flow after step 15 when Marina does an inside three turn.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Werent B&B coached AND choreographed by Tarasova? I would say she qualifies as a pretty good choreographer.

 

[VGThuy]

Tarasova is only as good as her collaborators and who is on her team, IMO.

 

[gk_891]

Tarasova is only as good as her collaborators and who is on her team, IMO.

Very true. She's produced both a lot of gems and turkeys over her career.