Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[briancoogaert]

For sure an impressive palmares, a great longevity and a beautiful unisson and technique.
The only problem is that they were surpassed by Davis&White, and by Papadakis&Cizeron. Actually I find Papadakis&Cizeron to be better ice dancers. So, for sure, V&M the best Olympic palmares, but GOAT, not sure.

 

[Meteorlight]

I remember Krylova and Ovsiannikov's Carmen over Memorial circa 1998.

And V&M's over D&W's Fd in 2014.

Not sure why you would think it would be Carmen of V&M in a non Olympic year when I was reponding to a specific post about Olympic memories.

Kind of proves the point that most people DON'T remember Carmen over Memorial? I'm a huge K/O fan (they were the first ice dance team I followed actually), but Memorial was a masterpiece (Carmen was great too, but not as unique imo). K/O had the much more memorable OD in 98 though.

Personally I found Scheherazade to be way more memorable than Seasons too. In fact for me Seasons was one of the least memorable V/M programs (pleasant but not that eye-catching), and I found Black Swan, Petite Prince, W/P's Tango and H/D's Picasso way more memorable ... well, B/S' Birds too but that was a different kind of memorable.

Anyway, that said, I definitely think V/M deserves a place amongst the GOATs ... best of this generation I can even get behind ... but to say they are THE GOAT? Not sure about that. Hard to make comparisons when so much about the sport has changed/evolved over the decades.

 

[Twilight1]

Your opinion is no more valid than any other including my own. I appreciated many aspects of G&P but Memorial ranks with their '96 Latin FD... low IMHO and certainly not as great as their '97 FD.

I loved the dynamic aspect of K&O's Carmen.

And D&W were technically great, I loved V&M more.

Apples and Oranges.

 

[look]

Grishuk / Platov is the only team to win back to back Olympic Gold Medals. 2. V/ M had to come back 3 times to achieve that . Grishuk/ Platov , have never been beaten . V/ M have by Davis & White & French . If you look at G/P record, they are Unbeaten 5 years. V/M can't shine their shoes .. facts are facts . They couldn't do Back to Back. They lost .

 

[Twilight1]

@look and they competed in an era of protocol judging and competitors moved up when people retired.

 

[Judy]

Grishuk / Platov is the only team to win back to back Olympic Gold Medals. 2. V/ M had to come back 3 times to achieve that . Grishuk/ Platov , have never been beaten . V/ M have by Davis & White & French . If you look at G/P record, they are Unbeaten 5 years. V/M can't shine their shoes .. facts are facts . They couldn't do Back to Back. They lost .

Yes but those were the days also when world champs were held up too.

 

[Mad for Skating]

The only GOAT that exists for me is Aliona Savchenko.

 

[VGThuy]

K/P are my personal favorite team, and I cannot deny the legacy, incomparable impact, and legendary career of T/D. However, what V/M did at the 2018 Olympics was nothing short of incredible. They took two full seasons off and found themselves in a changed ice dance world with different skill sets and styles being awarded. They didn't reinvent themselves, but had much better creative and technical guides in Montreal (with some off-ice training that they sought out) to push their own personal boundaries. They came back undefeated and carried it through the next season when it seemed like everyone from the fandom to the skating world saw that the gold was ready for P/C. Rather than have a 2013-2014 like season full of frustrated results and scores, V/M decided to just re-work their FD and compete at the Olympics as if the gold was still realistically theirs. We saw how that worked out. Not only did they come away from Pyeongchang with two gold medals (and improved scores from the team event to the individual) but they were one of the most talked about Olympians of the whole games and had programs that really grabbed the general public's attention, after a whole season of us fans criticizing their choices and some thinking they went "trashy" or whatever and being convinced the public wouldn't like what they were giving.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Competitively, yes. Jayne and Chris had professional careers that were amazing. Tessa and Scott won’t have that opportunity since there’s basically no pro circuit.

 

[look]

People here seriously think G/P are superior to V/M? okay, I can see where you are coming from with K/P and T/D in certain aspects but comparing V/M to a held up team who fell and still won Olympic gold is actually disgraceful.

No one fell at Olympic & we can say if the French wouldn't have had a wardrobe malfunction.. V/M would have lost ..

 

[Judy]

No one fell at Olympic & we can say if the French wouldn't have had a wardrobe malfunction.. V/M would have lost ..

That can be your opinion of course but impossible to know. She had a wardrobe malfunction and an error. I don’t think VM would have placed 2nd in the SD but that too is my opinion.

I also don’t believe a silver or bronze at the Olympics is anywhere near a loss.

 

[GreenGan]

They'll be remembered as one of the best couple in Ice Dance history that's for sure. And their palmares, 2 gold medal at Olympics and one silver (we're counting team event medal ? Really?), 3 gold world medal, and the rest.. It puts them at the top, there's no question. They also had worthy opponent that they won against (circumstances are there but we can't redo history, and at the end only the result matter).

GOAT ? If you're a fan definitely. Even if you're not a fan, they're right there with the best, and next to the legends. I don't see any NA couple that comes close to them. Their history is simply huge.

 

[Vagabond]

Virtue & Moir have landed a new product endorsement. More details soon.

 

[Katha]

IMO you can't really compare that well across decades, so I don't know who is "best" (or how to even define that). But yeah, V/M are up there. And for me, they climbed considerably higher with their comeback. And it's not only the gold medals and wins, but what they brought to the table: A completely different competitive field awaited them, they developed a new mature style that was different from their floaty "young love" programs around 2010 and did that in a point in time when "floaty" is arguably the judges' preferred style, they delivered under high pressure, they were technically excellent. It was pretty badass all around tbh.

On another note: G/P were brilliant and way ahead of their time in matters of technical difficulty. When you look at their Quickstep OD, for example, I'd bet quite a few of today's pairs would fall flat on their faces trying to do that.

 

[Judy]

It isnt really hypocritical at all. Chan's competitive record is arguably inferior to Stojko and Browning (no Oly medal, but more World titles, more general dominance at this peak, plus all his pro wins), and his impact on the sport is arguably less than Cranston, or even arguably Stojko considering he was the main main to make the quad a mandatory part of mens skating. I actually probably do have Chan as the best Canadian man at this point, or atleast toss up or equal with Browning for that, but there are valid arguments against Chan even being the best Canadian male skater ever.

Where Virtue & Moir rank really does not relate to Chan. Chan is an all time great, and you could even argue him as the best ever maybe, it is a real stretch IMO but you could, as his skating skills are probably the best ever. V&M though have arguably the best competitive record of all time at this point, even excluding their Team Oly medals completely, which Chan is not even close to having amongst the best, probably not even top 15 or top 20 all time purely on medals alone. And V&M have by far the best Canadian dance team record of all time, which as I mentioned Chan probably does not even have among Canadian man. So not to diss Chan, but the two are not parallel in that sense.

I’m a huge huge fan of Browning and I think Chan was technically the best ever in Canada .. which says a lot. Orser, Stojko made their mark. Elvis was never big on the artistry. Browning had a back injury .. he def deserved to be Olympic champion but that screwed up his training preparation. Chan made some mistakes with his coaching and missed his chance. Those were his choices and who really knows why.

 

[Judy]

IMO you can't really compare that well across decades, so I don't know who is "best" (or how to even define that). But yeah, V/M are up there. And for me, they climbed considerably higher with their comeback. And it's not only the gold medals and wins, but what they brought to the table: A completely different competitive field awaited them, they developed a new mature style that was different from their floaty "young love" programs around 2010 and did that in a point in time when "floaty" is arguably the judges' preferred style, they delivered under high pressure, they were technically excellent. It was pretty badass all around tbh.

On another note: G/P were brilliant and way ahead of their time in matters of technical difficulty. When you look at their Quickstep OD, for example, I'd bet quite a few of today's pairs would fall flat on their faces trying to do that.

I am sure G&P were technically excellent but when I saw them at Stars on Ice right after their Olympic win their performances just left me cold. They never had the same connection with an audience for whatever reason. I say that without bias as at the time I really never got into T&D because I was a teenager during their time and had discovered boys lol.

I was also wary when V&M came back but they really came back even stronger. I certainly put them up there amongst the greatest.

As for someone commenting that the only competion V/ had were D&W well they were a formidable team too. You also have to factor in Virtue’s surgeries. That should have been career ending but it def cost them gold medals - potentially - at the time.

 

[Judy]

I'm a huge V/M fan but this question isn't really fair.

When we're talking about the number of Olympic medals, you do have to put them up there. I exclude the team events but even still, two golds and a silver speak for themselves.

My only objection to these type of questions is that you can't compare generations against one another. Ice dancing is a completely different animal today under the IJS compared to the 6.0 days, and certainly nothing like the days when compulsory dances were alive and well.

That is very true - whoever thought ice dancing could become an edge of your seat and exciting event as it has become vs the old days when a team was slotted into place and didn’t move until someone retired. The potential for movement now is great!

 

[Danidin]

I'm pretty sure that VM's "bolero" is Mahler.

 

[Judy]

For sure an impressive palmares, a great longevity and a beautiful unisson and technique.
The only problem is that they were surpassed by Davis&White, and by Papadakis&Cizeron. Actually I find Papadakis&Cizeron to be better ice dancers. So, for sure, V&M the best Olympic palmares, but GOAT, not sure.

How were they surpassed by P&C? Their last meeting was at the Olympics.

 

[gk_891]

Your opinion is no more valid than any other including my own. I appreciated many aspects of G&P but Memorial ranks with their '96 Latin FD... low IMHO and certainly not as great as their '97 FD.

I loved the dynamic aspect of K&O's Carmen.

And D&W were technically great, I loved V&M more.

Apples and Oranges.

It's definitely apples and oranges when it comes to style and expression (and which one fans might prefer). But in terms of content and technique, that's not really the case. I know Memorial Requiem was very much an acquired taste artistically. But whether one likes it or not is almost irrelevant. Technically the choreography was unreal as they kept carving out huge patterns on the ice with their amazing running edges and from within complex yet soft and fluid handholds, extending their free legs in unison with each other, and all the moves were done with little set-up time. It never stopped moving until the very end. Yet the fact that they were still able to maintain tremendous speed and flow over the ice in spite of that shows how incredible their stroking technique was.

K&O's Carmen was also very much an acquired taste as people either really seemed to like it or hate it. But putting that aside, the content was absolutely nowhere near as challenging as Memorial Requiem. The first section was pretty good in that regards but after that, the skating kept stopping and starting again. The content came to almost a dead halt. And in terms of their handholds, they skated much further apart than not only Grishuk & Platov but also Anissina & Peizerat and Punsulan & Swallow. All three of those couples demonstrated much more seamless skating that K&O did. To their credit, K&O did skate a very aggressive and well-rehearsed performance but those attributes shouldn't be mistaken for actual content.

I sort of have a similar issue with the 1991 Worlds. Many are adamant that Usova & Zhulin should've won that competition. But as breathtaking as their Paganini dance was, the level of difficulty was nowhere near the same as Klimova & Ponomarenko's Lawrence of Arabia. I know many hated Lawrence of Arabia but whether one actually likes it or not is also sort of irrelevant. Being that it's a skating competition, K&P's superior skating abilities and demonstration of higher content is indicative that they're a better team and thus more deserving of that gold medal than Usova & Zhulin were.

 

[VGThuy]

Krylova/Ovysiannikov are a team I truly wish I liked better. Everything was done so earnestly and they looked well-matched, had a balance of matching and contrast, and you know they really really worked hard and wanted to sell it to you, but it was just all too much and they looked so fake. I think I may have preferred Krylova/Fedorov actually. When I first saw Carmen, even my late teenaged, no-technik, pre-IJS self could tell K/O's Carmen didn't have the content that I think I expected for an Olympic silver medalist team contending for the gold against G/P and their FD as overwrought as it some think it is.

 

[gk_891]

Krylova/Ovysiannikov are a team I truly wish I liked better. Everything was done so earnestly and they looked well-matched, had a balance of matching and contrast, and you know they really really worked hard and wanted to sell it to you, but it was just all too much and they looked so fake. I think I may have preferred Krylova/Fedorov actually. When I first saw Carmen, even my late teenaged, no-technik, pre-IJS self could tell K/O's Carmen didn't have the content that I think I expected for an Olympic silver medalist team contending for the gold against G/P and their FD as overwrought as it some think it is.

I also wished I liked them better. I liked their Spanish FD in 1995 and I remember being excited about them. But every free dance they did after that was very disappointing on many levels. So much of their skating was far apart with very simple handholds. And the few times they did skate within more difficult handholds, they looked tense and stiff. Their tense handholds was especially apparent in the compulsories (most noticeably in the golden waltz).

 

[VGThuy]

Lininchuk choreographed The Feeling Begins and their OD if I recall correctly.

Cute interview from Evgeny- they moved to Tarasova in December 2016.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?14914-Platov-Interview-extremely-long&styleid=5

BTW, I just read this. Thank you so much for posting this. This was an incredible read.

 

[gk_891]

BTW, I just read this. Thank you so much for posting this. This was an incredible read.

Platov almost always has had a ton of interesting things to say. Part of it was because he was sort of tangled in so many situations of course. I wonder what the off-ice intrigues were when Dubova and Tarasova were coaching rivals back when K&P and B&B skated against each other.

I also have to admit that the K&P and B&B rivalry was also something that kind of interested me. It was closer than some might think, at least back in 1985 and 1986 (and to a lesser extent 1987). I wonder if the rivalry spread off ice as well.

If it did, I guess it went away after a while. Because I had once read that it was Andrei Bukin who convinced Tarasova to take Klimova & Ponomarenko under her wing back in late 1991 (if that's true).

 

[briancoogaert]

How were they surpassed by P&C? Their last meeting was at the Olympics.

Every FD

 

[MsZem]

Not every FD - P/C had some issues on the GP last season - but certainly the majority of them. V/M only broke 120 once in international competition, though of course, it was the one that mattered

I think that there are several ice dance teams that can be seen as among the greatest, including V/M. If we're looking at enduring impact and influence, however, it's hard to make a case for anyone but Torvill and Dean.

 

[Danidin]

If we're looking at enduring impact and influence, however, it's hard to make a case for anyone but Torvill and Dean.

T/D was all about PR. They didn't invent anything. They just commercialised that. So there's something common between them and P/C.

 

[Judy]

Every FD

That doesn’t really work. Who won the OD’s, world championship and Olympic Gold beating them both times. It’s all about the medals and wins.

 

[MsZem]

That doesn’t really work. Who won the OD’s, world championship and Olympic Gold beating them both times. It’s all about the medals and wins.

Indeed, V/M won the last OD.

 

[Winnipeg]

I really do not know how anyone could vote no on this one