Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[snippy]

This is hard for me because I do like them. I do think that they’ve done amazing things for the sport. But it’s hard and hypocritical of me to call them one of the greatest all time and to disagree that Patrick Chan is the greatest male Canadian figure skater of all time.

 

[judgejudy27]

It isnt really hypocritical at all. Chan's competitive record is arguably inferior to Stojko and Browning (no Oly medal, but more World titles, more general dominance at this peak, plus all his pro wins), and his impact on the sport is arguably less than Cranston, or even arguably Stojko considering he was the main main to make the quad a mandatory part of mens skating. I actually probably do have Chan as the best Canadian man at this point, or atleast toss up or equal with Browning for that, but there are valid arguments against Chan even being the best Canadian male skater ever.

Where Virtue & Moir rank really does not relate to Chan. Chan is an all time great, and you could even argue him as the best ever maybe, it is a real stretch IMO but you could, as his skating skills are probably the best ever. V&M though have arguably the best competitive record of all time at this point, even excluding their Team Oly medals completely, which Chan is not even close to having amongst the best, probably not even top 15 or top 20 all time purely on medals alone. And V&M have by far the best Canadian dance team record of all time, which as I mentioned Chan probably does not even have among Canadian man. So not to diss Chan, but the two are not parallel in that sense.

 

[casken]

T&D, K&P, and G&P all have a greater body of creative work, and competed against more talented fields.

The fact that for years and at two Olympics, V&M greatest threat was... D&W, kind of says it.

 

[snippy]

It isnt really hypocritical at all. Chan's competitive record is arguably inferior to Stojko and Browning (no Oly medal, but more World titles, more general dominance at this peak, plus all his pro wins), and his impact on the sport is arguably less than Cranston, or even arguably Stojko considering he was the main main to make the quad a mandatory part of mens skating. I actually probably do have Chan as the best Canadian man at this point, or atleast toss up or equal with Browning for that, but there are valid arguments against Chan even being the best Canadian male skater ever.

Where Virtue & Moir rank really does not relate to Chan. Chan is an all time great, and you could even argue him as the best ever maybe, it is a real stretch IMO but you could, as his skating skills are probably the best ever. V&M though have arguably the best competitive record of all time at this point, even excluding their Team Oly medals completely, which Chan is not even close to having amongst the best, probably not even top 15 or top 20 all time purely on medals alone. And V&M have by far the best Canadian dance team record of all time, which as I mentioned Chan probably does not even have among Canadian man. So not to diss Chan, but the two are not parallel in that sense.

My problem is Chan has always bored me

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't really see Tessa and Scott as GOAT because few of their programs are magical to me. But (like Arutyunian in the interview just published today) I wanted them to win because of their incredible work ethic, technical brilliance, fearlessness and longevity, on top of their fabulous talent. They are champions through and through and I salute them for that.

I can't really see them surpassing T/D or K/P in terms of qualitative greatness. Quantitative, OK, but that's only part of what it's about for me.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Well I'm not that old so I say yes.

 

[judgejudy27]

@casken, creative body of work? Well T&D probably and K&P maybe (K&P are a stretch as their only innovative programs came in their last year or two as amateurs once the Duchensays were pushed above them) but G&P please, that is a nice joke. Even gk_891 who is the biggest G&P fan on this site wouldnt agree with you on that (atleast I dont think). They were a great technical team with amazing speed and that is why they dominated and are one of the best teams ever, but outside of maybe their 97 programs, they dont otherwise have a single memorable routine ever.

As for having only Davis & White and Papadakis & Cizeron, two of the best teams of all time, as your biggest rivals that is why tougher than anything T&D or G&P had. T&D's biggest rivals when they dominated were a pre prime Bestiamonva & Bukin and Blumberg & Seibert, way weaker competition than a peak D&W and P&C. G&P had Krylova & Ovsiannikov and a really non prime Anissina & Peizerat, which is even weaker competition than T&D had. In actuality Klimova & Ponomarenko faced much weaker teams too in Usova & Zhulin and the Duchenays, who are clearly inferior teams to both D&W or P&C, but they are the one uncertainty since K&P had to face the massive politics in favor of the Duchensays (and before that Bestiamonva & Bukin).

 

[Ohyes]

People here seriously think G/P are superior to V/M? okay, I can see where you are coming from with K/P and T/D in certain aspects but comparing V/M to a held up team who fell and still won Olympic gold is actually disgraceful.

 

[Ohyes]

IMO, that V/M's medal haul included two medals in the Team Event should not be considered; it is an unfair advantage over those who came before that event existed. Also, I am not sure that medal haul alone is determinative; will V/M lose their GOAT status if P/C stick around long enough to get two OGMs as well as their OSM? I have no idea if V/M will revolutionize the sport to the same extent that T/D did, but I think that needs to be ascertained before crowning V/M.

It will be a sad day in ice dance if P/C somehow become the greatest of all time.

 

[volunteer]

It’s impossible to compare teams from different eras purely objectively based on number of wins or medals. In the era when the next winner was determined by the retirement of the previous team, rather than based on actual merit, medals were merely rewards for getting ones turn at being first.

 

[judgejudy27]

@volunteer, I absolutely agree on the difference in the past (especialy distant and pre IJS past) eras and today, and it is actually one reason I think V&M atleast have a case as possible best ever now. Since as you said in the past when you were the champion you simply had to show up most times to win every gold medal until you retired. It was that simple. V&M never had that luxury, as it is a different situation in the new scoring system. Just look at how steadfast the protocal held:

1970-1976- Pakhomova & Gorshkov didnt lose any competition they entered.

1975-1978 Europeans- Moiseeva & Minenkov did not lose any competition they entered, except Olympics and worlds when P&G came back in 76, but to nobody else.

1978 worlds-1980 Olympics- Relatively short, but Linichuk & Karpanasov (not even a great team) didnt lose any competition they entered, including 2 Europeans facing all the top teams as well in this span.

1981-1984- Torvill & Dean didnt lose any competition they entered.

1985-1988- Bestiamanova & Bukin didnt lose any competition they entered. Bestiamanova Bukin also didnt lose to anyone but T&D from 82-88.

1989-1992- Klimova & Ponomarenko only lost 1 competition, and that was worlds right after a doping scandal, coaching problems, and all kinds of personal issues.

1993 and 1994 was shook up by the shortened quad and pros coming back, otherwise Usova & Zhulin probably cruise to the World and Olympic golds over the quad, even with cheesy routines like their 94 FD.

1994 Olympics-1998- Gritschuk & Platov won every competition they entered.

Krylova-Ovsiannikov- Didnt lose to anyone but G&P (and once in Canada to Bourne & Kraatz) from fall 95-99, and likely would have swept the 99-2002 whether deserved or not but for her career ending injury.

2004-2006- Navka Kostomarov lost no competition they entered.

Really things only started to change from 2007 onwards. And I am not saying some of these teams possibly didnt deserve their wins or even all their wins, but that is aside the point of the big picture of things.

 

[gk_891]

@casken, creative body of work? Well T&D probably and K&P maybe (K&P are a stretch as their only innovative programs came in their last year or two as amateurs once the Duchensays were pushed above them) but G&P please, that is a nice joke. Even gk_891 who is the biggest G&P fan on this site wouldnt agree with you on that (atleast I dont think). They were a great technical team with amazing speed and that is why they dominated and are one of the best teams ever, but outside of maybe their 97 programs, they dont otherwise have a single memorable routine ever.

As for having only Davis & White and Papadakis & Cizeron, two of the best teams of all time, as your biggest rivals that is why tougher than anything T&D or G&P had. T&D's biggest rivals when they dominated were a pre prime Bestiamonva & Bukin and Blumberg & Seibert, way weaker competition than a peak D&W and P&C. G&P had Krylova & Ovsiannikov and a really non prime Anissina & Peizerat, which is even weaker competition than T&D had. In actuality Klimova & Ponomarenko faced much weaker teams too in Usova & Zhulin and the Duchenays, who are clearly inferior teams to both D&W or P&C, but they are the one uncertainty since K&P had to face the massive politics in favor of the Duchensays (and before that Bestiamonva & Bukin).

I do for the most part agree with you about G&P. The reason why I am a mega-fan of them was for their technical abilities, not for their artistic innovation as they weren't very innovative at all in that way. Their style was, for the most part, along the lines of traditional ballroom dance and so in terms of the expression and concept, their programs were very straightforward. But I did love Memorial Requiem (I found it riveting even though her costume is a major eye-sore) as well as their 1992 free dance which was fascinatingly voidy and the 1993 free dance which was also fascinating albeit in a very different way. But when I think about it carefully, I probably found them riveting and interesting because of their content and display of skating abilities rather than for their artistic value.

Either way, what will probably hurt G&P in this type of discussion of 'goat' was that they had some truly terrible material throughout their career, especially during their Linichuk years.

G&P's biggest rivals during their years at the top were definitely K&O but I don't think they were close at all. K&O often skated very far apart and their compulsories were stiff and almost awkward looking at times. I actually though A&P were closer to G&P than K&O were even if the judges didn't think so. A&P skated much closer together and their programs had much better content, even if they had a ways to go in terms of their own development at that time (both technically and artistically). So I agree with you that in the long run, G&P didn't have competition that was super-tough in the way that V&M did.

People here seriously think G/P are superior to V/M? okay, I can see where you are coming from with K/P and T/D in certain aspects but comparing V/M to a held up team who fell and still won Olympic gold is actually disgraceful.

G&P never fell at the Olympics. They had some errors at other competitions but there is still a good argument for them to have won those competitions anyways. Like at the 1997 Worlds, many thought K&O should've been ahead of G&P since G&P made some errors in their free dance (although I still had G&P in first due to their superior content). But even if, K&O made a significant mistake in their golden waltz CD. Towards the end of the first pattern after the right inside swing choctaw in foxtrot position, K&O failed to successfully change into a kilian position. That not only caused them to lose unison and go off-timing for the rest of that sequence in the corner of the ice but they also failed to skate the left inside swing of the open choctaw in an actual kilian position. Not to mention the left inside edge of that part of the choctaw was shallow, shaky, not in sync with the music, and not in unison. I thought they should've been 5th or lower in that dance which I believe would've put them out of gold medal contention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KQIHfcznqs

G&P also made a small error in their golden waltz CD at the 1998 Olympics but contrary to popular thought, the judges did actually penalize them for it. A fairly recent video of that dance has surfaced on youtube and it showed their marks. And their first set of marks weren't very high, likely because most of the judges caught Pasha's error (she caught her toe pick coming out of the layback position and skated her twizzle after that on 2 feet rather than 1 foot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TuU9MWmwfY

Where they managed to beat K&O in that dance was in the second set of marks because K&O skated a stiff, awkward, and almost gangly looking golden waltz. And you can see from the marks, K&O did have a higher first set of marks but their second set went down, likely for the reasons I mentioned (also because their handholds were much more tense than G&P's and Krylova's stiff back was very apparent in that dance).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frdopjImVGM

 

[judgejudy27]

gk_891, I agree all you say. And I do think G&P are absolute legends, despite the controversy around them for some, and you could even make a case for them as possibly the best ever. I just dont agree (as I see you also dont) that they stand out above for creative and memorable programs or quality of competition, not even in comparision to Virtue & Moir.

I also agree Anissina & Peizerat were already a better team than Krylova & Ovsiannikov from 96-98, even though the judges had them far behind K&O. Well probably not the 96-97 season since they had bad material that year, but both 95-96 and 97-98, and for sure 98-99 where they had a string of very controversial losses to K&O all by 1 judge. Regardless A&P were still not even close to their 99-2002 level yet, did not have the reputation, and despite what some think they were in fact politically out of favor their whole career basically, as their numerous controversial losses to Fusar Poli & Margalio, Bourne & Kraatz, and even K&O (especialy 99 Europeans and 99 worlds) prove, so were still no real threat to G&P in their reign, as K&O were at most a marginal obstacle who G&P as we saw could beat with major errors even. Apart from that they faced Rahkammo & Kokko (who were both a clearly inferior overall team to G&P and an underrated and perennialy underscored team, who also came from a weak fed. that couldnt even begin to compete with say the Russian fed.) who never came close to beating them in a competition, or actually beat them (even if they came somewhat close) in a single program ever, Moniotte & Lavanchy who declined further after a big injury layoff, and the overhyped Bourne & Kraatz. So particularly tough or threatening competition, definitely not.

I most of all agree that the biggest reason Gritschuk & Platov did not reach their innovation and artistic potential was Linichuk. It is no coincidence their best programs came when they first went to Tarasova, and even their Requiem which gets a fair amount of criticsm by some was still probably a better program than any they had under Linichuk. Had they been with Dubova or Tarasova or anyone else the bulk of their careers I think this would be different.

 

[gk_891]

gk_891, I agree all you say. And I do think G&P are absolute legends, despite the controversy around them for some, and you could even make a case for them as possibly the best ever. I just dont agree (as I see you also dont) that they stand out above for creative and memorable programs or quality of competition, not even in comparision to Virtue & Moir.

I also agree Anissina & Peizerat were already a better team than Krylova & Ovsiannikov from 96-98, even though the judges had them far behind K&O. Well probably not the 96-97 season since they had bad material that year, but both 95-96 and 97-98, and for sure 98-99 where they had a string of very controversial losses to K&O all by 1 judge. Regardless A&P were still not even close to their 99-2002 level yet, did not have the reputation, and despite what some think they were in fact politically out of favor their whole career basically, as their numerous controversial losses to Fusar Poli & Margalio, Bourne & Kraatz, and even K&O (especialy 99 Europeans and 99 worlds) prove, so were still no real threat to G&P in their reign, as K&O were at most a marginal obstacle who G&P as we saw could beat with major errors even. Apart from that they faced Rahkammo & Kokko (who were both a clearly inferior overall team to G&P and an underrated and perennialy underscored team, who also came from a weak fed. that couldnt even begin to compete with say the Russian fed.) who never came close to beating them in a competition, or actually beat them (even if they came somewhat close) in a single program ever, Moniotte & Lavanchy who declined further after a big injury layoff, and the overhyped Bourne & Kraatz. So particularly tough or threatening competition, definitely not.

I most of all agree that the biggest reason Gritschuk & Platov did not reach their innovation and artistic potential was Linichuk. It is no coincidence their best programs came when they first went to Tarasova, and even their Requiem which gets a fair amount of criticsm by some was still probably a better program than any they had under Linichuk. Had they been with Dubova or Tarasova or anyone else the bulk of their careers I think this would be different.

Yup, agree with all of this. L&K really amped up G&P's speed and aggressiveness and they really gelled together as a team during that year of their careers. But most of their programs during that era (save for their 1993 FD which was choreographed by the great Shanti Rushpaul and their 1995 quickstep OD) were mostly forgettable, bordering on a hot mess at times (like that Latin FD from 95-96). Moving away from Linichuk after the 1996 Worlds (whether that was their choice or Linichuk's choice) ended up being the best thing for them.

With K&P, they started to become artistically innovative in 91 and 92 but I actually preferred them during their traditional ballroom dance years. The ballroom dance style showed off their clinical skating skills even better than the avant garde or passionate style they showed in 91 and 92. I also felt that they were maybe trying a little too hard with those programs (their makeup and costumes in 1991 was flat-out garish and weird and I thought the passion and angst from their Bach program was bordering on overkill). But when you consider that they were competing against D&D and U&Z, it's completely understandable as to why they changed their style. Still, their OSPs from 86 (this finally surfaced on youtube a few years ago), 87 (the legendary waltz), and 89 were just unreal in terms of their content and use of pattern. Not to mention their display of clinical skills. That to me is personally more worthwhile to watch than some of the stuff they did as professionals (although I realize that amateur and pro skating shouldn't be compared at all!)

 

[vivika1982]

And some people remember Carmen over Memorial, The Season/Concerto in 2014 over Scheherazade etc...

Yep, and from 2014 i remember the Black Swan.As for V/M i loved their Carmen and kind of felt like Moulin Rouge was pulled from same cookie jar. Although when it comes to Carmen the one and only for me is Katarina Witt with Elena Ilinykh second and Tessa in third but who is counting.

It will be a sad day in ice dance if P/C somehow become the greatest of all time.

I don't think it would be so sad because their team and i don,t mean only the skaters but their coaches and choreographers brought back "the dance" in Ice dance. But enough with the bleating .The original question involved now,greatEST, medals and etc and i voted No because they are just the next great ice dance skaters...for now

 

[gk_891]

And some people remember Carmen over Memorial

To each their own. The content of Carmen was significantly lower than that of Memorial Requiem. It also had less content than A&P's Romeo & Juliet and P&S's Tango. It started off well but after the first section, they essentially stopped skating and started relying on mime-like body movements and facial expressions. It picked up again in the final section but they skated much further apart and with less challenging handholds than the other couples. All the open gaps in the choreography allowed K&O to skate with a ton of speed and attack (and I do admit that it was a very well-rehearsed program) but the lack of content and Linichuk's second rate choreography did them in. In the long run though, it didn't cost them all that much since they managed to win silver (albeit undeservingly IMO).

The thing about that free dance was that it should've worked well as Krylova was born to play Carmen (and interestingly Linichuk had Krylova play Carmen before with her previous partner Leliukh back in 1989-1990). But like so many other free dances done by Linichuk, it failed to rise above mediocrity in spite of being a good idea on paper. And it was mentioned before here at fsuniverse that Linichuk often has great ideas but she doesn't seem to know how to make them come to fruition very well. That's probably one of the reasons why she and Karponosov have faded from the coaching scene.

 

[Twilight1]

Lininchuk choreographed The Feeling Begins and their OD if I recall correctly.

Cute interview from Evgeny- they moved to Tarasova in December 2016.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?14914-Platov-Interview-extremely-long&styleid=5

 

[gk_891]

Lininchuk choreographed The Feeling Begins and their OD if I recall correctly.

Cute interview from Evgeny- they moved to Tarasova in December 2016.

G&P allegedly went to an Argentine tango specialist in NYC ot help them with their OD that season and they did most of the choreography for TFB themselves. Linichuk tried to claim that those programs were hers at Europeans in 1997 but both G&P denied it. When looking at how those programs were constructed relative to most of Linichuk's other programs, the difference is like night and day

 

[bbkenn]

And some people remember Carmen over Memorial, The Season/Concerto in 2014 over Scheherazade etc...

And Gustav's Mahler in 2010

 

[overedge]

So in other words, the only correct answer to this question is the same answer as @judgejudy27 has

 

[Twilight1]

So who did Masquerade Waltz and the OD for K&O? Because they were amazing too

 

[wickedwitch]

I voted maybe. There's an argument there, but they're not clearly above the other ice dance greats. There are some areas where they are the best, but others where they fairly clearly aren't.

 

[Twilight1]

I voted maybe. There's an argument there, but they're not clearly above the other ice dance greats. There are some areas where they are the best, but others where they fairly clearly aren't.

I feel the same and voted maybe. When I am old and grey, maybe then we will have new kids on the block who won 6 medals or 7 at the Olympics and they will be the goats.

You never know.

 

[gk_891]

So who did Masquerade Waltz and the OD for K&O? Because they were amazing too

Masquerade Waltz was one of K&O's best free dances but the content was far from exceptional. It wasn't close to G&P's TFB or even A&P's poorly received Ahla Leila's FD. It really moved across the ice though. And since her expression hadn't gone completely over the top just yet, it was far more effective in terms of its emotional impact than their Carmen FD which was pretty hokey in comparison.

As for their OD that year, it was excellent. It seems as though Linichuk's students have much better ODs than FDs.

 

[Twilight1]

I never implied it was better than G&P in 1997. I actually thought that year was incredible all around for ice dance.

 

[gk_891]

I never implied it was better than G&P in 1997. I actually thought that year was incredible all around for ice dance.

I didn't say you implied that it was better than G&P's in 1997. They were good programs but in terms of content and general construction, they were hardly exceptional. And that's often the case with many of Linichuk's student. Even in that interview you posted, Platov said that he and Grishuk did TFB together on their own without any help of coaches. Grishuk also claimed that Linichuk tried to get rid of them after the 96 Worlds beecause she was desperate to lead K&O to the gold in 1998.

 

[Twilight1]

We all know Lininchuk did a Zueva on Grishuk & Platov. Really was the best thing for them though

 

[gk_891]

We all know Lininchuk did a Zueva on Grishuk & Platov. Really was the best thing for them though

Exactly. It got them away from her second-rate programs.

 

[arakwafan2006]

These GOAT arguments are so boring I'd rather go back and watch all the greatest performances of all the greatest teams and athletes in all sports than sit around gabbing about what makes the latest athletes who've achieved rare feats, the greatest.

No athlete does anything in isolation btw. The greatest always stand on the shoulders of those who came before them.

Spend time actually looking at the greatest ice dance performances ever on Youtube, and simply be thankful. Videos should be made of all the greatest hits from all the greatest ice dancers who ever graced the ice, including the most obscure that have been forgotten, as well as the ones we remember like Torvill/Dean, Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Anissina/Peizarat, et al!
I had fun recently looking back at D/W and V/M. Wow, what both teams accomplished that has enriched the sport of figure skating and the ice dance discipline. I'm so thankful to have witnessed the amazing last few years in this sport with the rise of Papadakis/Cizeron and how every team has upped their game. I'm glad V/M came back (which further enlivened the discipline), but the sport needs to do more at all levels, and focus on developing and promoting a viable professional tour to help expand growth and opportunities beyond the eligible ranks.

Boring? After seeing that you took time to write this, looks like you’ve got time to spare

 

[Ohyes]

Boring? After seeing that you took time to write this, looks like you’ve got time to spare

These people that think that any ice dance team is anywhere close to V/M that isn't T/D are so delusional with their obvious hatred of V/M trying to downplay their accomplishments. The P/C and G/P fan hive's here is so obvious they all gather here for a reason while they are nowhere to be found elsewhere while V/M have legions of fans on actual popular sites like twitter/instagram/tumblr. #PCuniverse #DANSE!!1

Face it. V/M and T/D are now equal with the everyone else miles behind.