Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[Rossig]

VM have individual 2 OGM, 1 silver. KP bronze-silver-gold. GP 2 golds (and without medal at there first OG).

Yes, V/M have the biggest achievements when it comes to the Olympic medals. I'm not going to argue with that. But the title of this thread was whether V/M are ice dancing GOATS. And in my opinion they aren't. While they are great performers and fantastic ice dancers, their impact on ice dance is not the biggest one. They didn't revolutionise the ice dance the way T&D did. Before V&M came to the scene, ice dance had been the same discipline. Maybe the programs were not executed so well as those of V/M’s, whose quality of skating is very high, but this was the same discipline of sport.

Moreover, V/M have always relied too much on other people and not on themselves. They have hardly ever even chosen music for their programs, not even mentioning choreographing them. Anyway let's wait 30 years and see how big their legacy is and how well remembered their programs are. Today in my opinion it's too early to call them GOATS.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Moreover, V/M have always relied too much on other people and not on themselves. They have hardly ever even chosen music for their programs, not even mentioning choreographing them.

Can you clarify this a bit for me? Are you saying to be considered GOAT they should have more often chosen their own music and choreographed their own programs? Or is this something you expect in general from any ice dance team? Because this is generally not how it works. Especially the choreography.

 

[Judy]

I have a "serious" question. Kind of, I don't know.
Let's pretend post-Sochi did not happen. What was being said in 2014 ? If you were to rank Davis/White and Virtue/Moir into the "GOATs" list, with the perception and everything ? Who was seen as the best team/skaters if you count both teams achievements from 2006 to 2014 ? (With the idea that both teams were retiring ?)

I think if I had to answer that question back then that both of them were equal in their wins with Olympics and worlds.

One thing I don’t agree with is that P&C are being considered without finishing their career. They are young and have at least 4 more years before they can be considered in my opinion. IMO let’s see what they can do.

 

[Judy]

Can you clarify this a bit for me? Are you saying to be considered GOAT they should have more often chosen their own music and choreographed their own programs? Or is this something you expect in general from any ice dance team? Because this is generally not how it works. Especially the choreography.

I don’t think any teams do that although I am sure they actively have a voice in it.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I don’t think any teams do that although I am sure they actively have a voice in it.

Ya, it seems a big ask and totally unrealistic expectation that a team does their own choreo, but maybe I am not understanding correctly what the poster means.....also, sometimes, depending on the coaching camp, teams DO NOT get a choice in their music or choreo.

 

[Anyasnake]

I think if I had to answer that question back then that both of them were equal in their wins with Olympics and worlds.

One thing I don’t agree with is that P&C are being considered without finishing their career. They are young and have at least 4 more years before they can be considered in my opinion. IMO let’s see what they can do.

Yeah P/C are too young. I'm obviously not going to call them GOAT (even if they are my favourite team), I think that speaks for the impact they have had for the last few years. They have a lot to prove. But then it's different eras almost...

Both D/W and V/M at the time (2014) had the same impact, you think ? For example I always saw V/M as the better skaters (basic skating) yet every win D/W had is very deserved.
I was asking the question because on everyone's Short list you have T/D, V/M, K/P for example, and I never see Davis/White. It's surprising on a North American forum, I did not know what to think I guess ?

 

[Judy]

Ya, it seems a big ask and totally unrealistic expectation that a team does their own choreo, but maybe I am not understanding correctly what the poster means.....also, sometimes, depending on the coaching camp, teams DO NOT get a choice in their music or choreo.

I think it’s too technically demanding with the rules. I found with Dean’s choreography with other teams you could always, always tell his style.

 

[Rossig]

Can you clarify this a bit for me? Are you saying to be considered GOAT they should have more often chosen their own music and choreographed their own programs? Or is this something you expect in general from any ice dance team? Because this is generally not how it works. Especially the choreography.

I believe there are many factors to be considered while choosing GOATS. And it’s one of them. When the team makes its own choices and those choices work it is the big thing in my opinion. It is much bigger achievement than when the team just executes what the coaches and choreographers tell them. It proves that it’s mainly their impact on the discipline of the sport, and not the impact of their coaching team. Of course, I realise it’s not easy, and nowadays even more difficult than ever. But don't think impossible.
And it might mean nothing to you and sound trivial, but personally I was very disappointed to learn that such great ice dancers as V/M hardly ever choose music themselves and when they did they chose Moulin Rouge. IMHO not very inspiring.

 

[Judy]

I believe there are many factors to be considered while choosing GOATS. And it’s one of them. When the team makes its own choices and those choices work it is the big thing in my opinion. It is much bigger achievement than when the team just executes what the coaches and choreographers tell them. It proves that it’s mainly their impact on the discipline of the sport, and not the impact of their coaching team. Of course, I realise it’s not easy, and nowadays even more difficult than ever. And it might mean nothing to you and sound trivial, but personally I was very disappointed to learn that such great ice dancers as V/M hardly ever choose music themselves and when they did they chose Moulin Rouge. IMHO not very inspiring.

Virtue and Moir were always involved in the choosing of their music. Moulin Rouge was something they choose and were passionate about. The program was amazing. I think you are being really nitpicky. By your terms nobody would be worthy.

 

[Rossig]

By your terms nobody would be worthy.

We are talking about GOATS here! No just about great teams. Of course there are only several teams who can be in contention for this title. And notice, that I only state my own opinion, while many V/M fans believe it's a kind of objective truth that V/M are the greatest.

 

[chapis]

I voted hard to say, maybe. I like V/M more than P/C, but this thread is too much. There is no need, V/M won their second Olympic gold medal and they got the biggest response from the public worldwide. Is not it enough? Now they have to be named the GOATs ?, ice dance has evolved so much, it could be almost different sports what T/D were doing at 80s, and what is V/M and all current teams are doing today.

 

[VGThuy]

Rossig is only saying that for them, what puts T/D over the top is that they did something that was beyond and were the masterminds of their own programs that were unanimously well-received and seen as revolutionary that made them influential because it really was their own style, programs, and creations that the skating world responded to and why they have such legendary status.

We have our own reasons for choosing our GOAT which we back up with pretty good arguments for the most part.

 

[Peepsquick]

It is just the concept of GOAT that doesn't make sense, imo.

 

[snoopy]

My opinion. V&M are not GOATS. Pasha & Evgeny had the more dominant record and T&D were more influential. GOATS are between those two.

 

[Rossig]

Rossig is only saying that for them, what puts T/D over the top is that they did something that was beyond and were the masterminds of their own programs that were unanimously well-received and seen as revolutionary that made them influential because it really was their own style, programs, and creations that the skating world responded to and why they have such legendary status.

Yep! Thank you. Plus they were excellent ice dancers, had incredible skating skills. They were complete ice dancers. It's really rarity that skaters excel in everything and they did. It's not coincidence that after so many years their routines are still so fresh and still so many people watch them and love them.

And after so many years they still bring joy and beauty to their fans. They are 60/59 years old and they skate like this . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Zpv7rYS_I

 

[GreenGan]

What program from V/M had the more impact on Ice dance ? Since we are talking about GOAT and impact here.

I think their Pink Floyd program was the more refreshing one, and also the one that had the more influence. Joyful, popular music with immaculate lift that were difficult but also fitted the choreography really well. I think P/C said that it was their favourite program of V/M, and they used the same music a few years later, as junior.
I'd fit Carmen in there too, and maybe Prince. Carmen because it's their greatest program and it had the passion of the 2000 year while actually fit the IJS criteria, and Prince because this was just the best SD we've seen under those rules. Maybe Prince more than Carmen actually. Carmen cemented them as a great team, way more than Malher, but thinking of it again, I don't remember it created a wave of change...

But I'm hardly an expert on VM program, so asking the pro here

 

[berthesghost]

Here you go. Can V/M or P/C do four-footed skating? I think not.

Russian goats are clearly superior.

Impressive speed and skill, but kinda sloppy and don’t hold positions long enough... typical Russian GOATS

 

[princeton123]

I don't know where all this 'not innovative' enough talk comes from. Ice dance pre-V/M (and Davis/White) looked drastically different. Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event. On the official Olympic channel, the most viewed gold-medal performances are men's (Hanyu), then dance (V/M), then ladies (Zagitova), then pairs (Savchenko/Massot).

 

[Peepsquick]

I don't know where all this 'not innovative' enough talk comes from. Ice dance pre-V/M (and Davis/White) looked drastically different. Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event. On the official Olympic channel, the most viewed gold-medal performances are men's (Hanyu), then dance (V/M), then ladies (Zagitova), then pairs (Savchenko/Massot).

What is the connection between "innovative" and "most viewed gold-medal performances" ?

 

[princeton123]

What is the connection between "innovative" and "most viewed gold-medal performances" ?

"Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event."

I love reading.

 

[Peepsquick]

"Those two teams turned ice dance from figure skating's red-headed step-child into a marquee event."

I love reading.

It is quite a jump! popular appeal has nothing to do with innovation! V/M are the best at marketing themselves. That how you draw attention to yourselves, when it comes to a larger public.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

Yeah P/C are too young. I'm obviously not going to call them GOAT (even if they are my favourite team), I think that speaks for the impact they have had for the last few years. They have a lot to prove. But then it's different eras almost...

Both D/W and V/M at the time (2014) had the same impact, you think ? For example I always saw V/M as the better skaters (basic skating) yet every win D/W had is very deserved.
I was asking the question because on everyone's Short list you have T/D, V/M, K/P for example, and I never see Davis/White. It's surprising on a North American forum, I did not know what to think I guess ?

I probably would have put V/M above D/W in 2014 because of their added pre-2010 achievements. I believe they’re still the highest senior Worlds debut? But it would have been a much much closer race and of course D/W have all those GPFs. It was the comeback that really set V/M over the top for me because now their career has managed to transcend that one rivalry. If they’d never come back the two would still be always spoken of together in threads like these and in the general public’s eye they were probably completely equal.

I think D/W’s and P/C’s achievements actually add to V/M’s legacy. It’s like the Big 4 in tennis right? We appreciate just how ridiculously good Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray are precisely because they’ve had to win all their titles against each other rather than wiping the floor with a weaker field.

I agree with those saying that V/M and D/W’s ‘impact’ on the sport is getting a bit understated in here. Or maybe Marina’s and Igor’s. Just think about how trashy it was considered in 2006. Nobody questions the athleticism of it or whether it should be in the Olympics at all any more. That is in huge part down to the complexity and distinctiveness of what those two teams were doing. If you’d told me 12 years ago ice dancing would be one of, if not the most talked about and unironically popular Olympic event in 2018 I would have laughed out loud.

 

[Golden1]

I agree with princeton123. Growing up I remember watching figure skating with my whole extended family. We watched everything but I remember how ice dance was always the discipline we didn't take seriously. They didn't have jumps or throws but horrible costumes. During ice dance you could do something else because you didn't miss much. Basically everyone I knew watched it back then to make fun of it and no one knew why it was even an Olympic sport. For me that only changed with Tessa and Scott. They made ice dance more athletic, difficult and much more appealing. They turned it into my favorite discipline. Their achievements are even greater considering Tessa's two surgeries and how hard she had to work to change her skating afterwards. I bet they would have won a couple more medals without her illness.

 

[forthewin]

It is quite a jump! popular appeal has nothing to do with innovation! V/M are the best at marketing themselves. That how you draw attention to yourselves, when it comes to a larger public.

Since when are V/M the best at marketing themselves? They're really private persons. Even after they got social medias, they hardly update them, especially Scott. And all the attentions they got are given to them by people who are intrigued by their work, like the MR director. V/M never seek the attention themselves.

BTW, Peepsquick, since you join the board, all you do is putting down V/M. Don't you have better things to do here and in life?

 

[Peepsquick]

Since when are V/M the best at marketing themselves? They're really private persons. Even after they got social medias, they hardly update them, especially Scott. And all the attentions they got are given to them by people who are intrigued by their work, like the MR director. V/M never seek the attention themselves.

BTW, Peepsquick, since you join the board, all you do is putting down V/M. Don't you have better things to do here and in life?

I am not putting them down in any way. Please, read my posts again and calm down. I am just not an uber. I will certainly miss their energy and great skills as athletes. I won't miss some of their fans (you are not targeted, so please don't take it personally).
Sorry, but they are the most marketed team in ice dance. I don't know if they just run with it, without actively looking for it. It is just a fact. Pre-olympic season was prime season for them in terms of media attention.

 

[forthewin]

I am not putting them down in any way. Please, read my posts again and calm down. I am just not an uber. I will certainly miss their energy and great skills as athletes. I won't miss some of their fans (you are not targeted, so please don't take it personally).
Sorry, but they are the most marketed team in ice dance. I don't know if they just run with it, without actively looking for it. It is just a fact. Pre-olympic season was prime season for them in terms of media attention.

Well, V/M made ice dance more popular to the general public, that's for sure. But doesn't it show exactly how much impact they made as true legends? I don't know how you can turn a very positive thing into such a negative tune here.

 

[Rossig]

If you’d told me 12 years ago ice dancing would be one of, if not the most talked about and unironically popular Olympic event in 2018 I would have laughed out loud.

It's nothing new. Already in 1984 ice dance was the most talked (not one of the most talked) figure skating discipline.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

It's nothing new. Already in 1984 ice dance was the most talked (not one of the most talked) figure skating discipline.

I’m well aware, I was in the UK for a while! Everyone still remembers. But we’ve suffered a fair bit since then 2006 was such a joke I’d all but given up on the discipline. It’s just nice to see it back in the spotlight.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I believe there are many factors to be considered while choosing GOATS. And it’s one of them. When the team makes its own choices and those choices work it is the big thing in my opinion. It is much bigger achievement than when the team just executes what the coaches and choreographers tell them. It proves that it’s mainly their impact on the discipline of the sport, and not the impact of their coaching team. Of course, I realise it’s not easy, and nowadays even more difficult than ever. But don't think impossible.
And it might mean nothing to you and sound trivial, but personally I was very disappointed to learn that such great ice dancers as V/M hardly ever choose music themselves and when they did they chose Moulin Rouge. IMHO not very inspiring.

Thanks for your response.

 

[lauravvv]

I probably would have put V/M above D/W in 2014 because of their added pre-2010 achievements. I believe they’re still the highest senior Worlds debut?

No, that's Shibutanis. They got the Worlds bronze in their first senior season.