Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[MAXSwagg]

You do understand that this is 'IMO', yes?



The judges weren't just going to give it to V/M over P/C when they returned. V/M had to earn it. Even though they won the last Worlds, the judges clearly indicated this win was no guarantee of a preference. This was particularly evident at the GPF and again at the Olympics. When the judges posted that monster score for P/C in the free, they indicated IMO that they were still favoring P/C for Gold. V/M had to demand their due by skating ML with total passion, commitment and conviction. Even with that, they won by under a point.

I think the judges may have even surprised themselves when they gave V/M the title. In the end, I think it may have come down to skate order.

You're confused!

 

[Rossig]

LMAO

I'm glad I made you laugh. Because what I wrote was so hilarious.

 

[lauravvv]

You're confused!

I think you are the one who's confused here, not Japanfan.

 

[Rossig]

Comparing the number of medals as a measure of greatness is also misleading, because the number of high-level competitions across time has changed. E.g. when Torvill and Dean were competing, there was no GPF, there was no Four Continents, and there was no team event at the Olympics. So saying that one team is more GOAT-worthy than another because that team has more medals isn't a valid comparison unless the type/number of competitions is also comparable.

This. Plus people forget that the path of the career looked completely different during Torvill and Dean times. After winning gold they weren’t expected to stay and still compete. It was time to start the pro career and earn money. In 1980-1984 T&D were funded by the grant received from Nottingham council. When the aim (Olympic gold) was achieved, it was start from them to begin their “adult” life. They weren’t allowed to earn money as amateurs and as pros the weren’t ineligible for Olympics or any other amateur competition. But the years after 1984 were probably the pinnacle of their career. They were excellent skaters and at the same their creativity at the time was unmatched and till this time never surpassed by anyone. Some of their biggest masterpieces were created then. Who knows what would have happened if T&D had continued skating competitively after 1984? I believe it’s quite probable they wouldn’t have been beaten till 1988.

To achieve greatness T&D didn’t need such a big team of people V&M need. I have impression that Tessa and Scott need to be held by hand and guided all the time. I would like to see what they are capable themselves. I will also wait and see what they will show in their post-Olympic career. After seeing their Michael Jackson program, I don’t have high expectations. But hopefully they will prove me wrong.

 

[Rossig]

V&M may not have come back 10 years later but they accomplished what T&D couldn't.

Coming back after 2 years and 10 years is a big, big difference. Moreover, even in 4 years during Olympics in China V&M will be still younger than when T&D returned in 1994. It only shows what a big achievements this bronze medal in Lillehammer was. And it can be argued that it should have been gold, not bronze.

 

[Icetigger]

Virtue and Scott, while fantastic, do not even come near to the innovation and creativity of T/D. Not even close.

Anyone who thinks this statement is untrue doesn't know what they are talking about.

G.O.A.T. is an open-ended descriptor- anything related to ice dancing should be able to be brought in, and that would include self-choreography for both amateur and pro competitive periods. The whole point about the G.O.A.T descriptor is that it encourages the largest possible take on what any couple achieved. Else, if one is just talking about Ice Dancers with most Olympic medals that is obviously V/M. Or if we are talking about most artistic influence across figure skating as a whole it's T/D. If anyone wants to argue that V/M are the greatest competitive ice dancers then argue that (which I don't agree with: Meryl and Charlie were more competitively successful than them even in their own time), but don't allege that that is synonymous with G.O.A.T because it isn't.

 

[forthewin]

Rossig, you have this weird standard of your own, such as how much skaters do their own choreography, etc. And you're making others accept that as one of the criteria for GOAT. In fact, not many people care about who did the choreography, they care about how great the skaters perform it and what the competition results are.

You also talked about how big V/M's team are. But that shows exactly how competitive the sport is these days and how much more you need to do in order to achieve greatness than the good old days. You can't just show up and get results in a snap. That's exactly why V/M's achievements are more valuable.

 

[Rossig]

they care about how great the skaters perform it and what the competition results are.

In those areas T&D were great as well. They had great results and have always been fantastic performers, which they proved touring all over the world. Well, even now when they are 60 and 59 they still do the tours and their performance is the biggest thing of the show, getting a standing ovation.

 

[Japanfan]

If you mean at the Olympics, I think it came down to Gabby's wardrobe malfunction in the short, and the impact that had on how the program was performed (e.g. not going "all out" for fear that Gabby's top would completely fall down). P/C did win the long, so without the wardrobe malfunction they might have won the short too.

ITA that the wardrobe malfunction contributed substantially to P/C earning the silver.

But I do think that skate order may have made a difference as well.

 

[Icetigger]

In fact, not many people care about who did the choreography, they care about how great the skaters perform it and what the competition results are.

If that was truly the case, D/W would be considered greater than V/M, because they won 7 global senior events against V/M whereas V/M won just 3. Plus also see that D/W held the world records in both FD and SD more consistently and for far longer periods than V/M.

In total V/M have just won 6 global senior events, whereas D/W won 8. On paper, D/W are by far the stronger team......

 

[forthewin]

And yet you are using something hasn't happened with V/M in time to argue against them. How do you know V/M won't be even greater performers than T/D in the future? I don't think you debate fairly.

 

[forthewin]

If that was truly the case, D/W would be considered greater than V/M, because they won 7 global senior events against V/M whereas V/M won just 3. Plus also see that D/W held the world records in both FD and SD more consistently and for far longer periods than V/M.

In total V/M have just won 6 global senior events, whereas D/W won 8. On paper, D/W are by far the stronger team......

For god's sake, you are telling me GPF are as important as Olympics Gold Medals, or even WC? You're just delusional. Give it a rest, buddy.

 

[Icetigger]

For god's sake, you are telling me GPF are as important as Olympics Gold Medals? You're just delusional. Give it a rest, buddy.

Actually, yes, speaking objectively, because they have the same field of entry. In terms of fact, the gpf final is the same level (i.e. global competition) as the Os and Ws. The idea that the Os are more important is an entirely subjective one, which is why the claim that V/M are the G.O.A.T (which is based entirely on competitive Olympic achievement) is also an entirely subjective one, that doesn't withstand any form of intelligent analysis.

 

[forthewin]

Actually, yes, speaking objectively, because they have the same field of entry. In terms of fact, the gpf final is the same level (i.e. global competition) as the Os and Ws. The idea that the Os are more important is an entirely subjective one, which is why the claim that V/M are the G.O.A.T (which is based entirely on competitive Olympic achievement) is also an entirely subjective one, that doesn't withstand any form of intelligent analysis.

D E L U S I O N A L ! Enough said.

 

[Icetigger]

D E L U S I O N A L ! Enough said.

No, it's just that I am not partisan to your particular delusions, which you are so convinced are based on objective fact that when someone points them out as being based no such thing, you actually declare them delusional.

I don't have a problem with V/m being called the most successful Olympic ice dancers ever, because it's true. Unfortunately, that's also my criteria when considering any other claim about them, and in order to reach a conclusion on that I look at facts rather than opinions.

Obviously, I don't exist within the cultural echo chamber that is Canadian media with regard to V/M, which I suspect you might.

All the best!

 

[Japanfan]

Rossig, you have this weird standard of your own, such as how much skaters do their own choreography, etc. And you're making others accept that as one of the criteria for GOAT. In fact, not many people care about who did the choreography, they care about how great the skaters perform it and what the competition results are.

You also talked about how big V/M's team are. But that shows exactly how competitive the sport is these days and how much more you need to do in order to achieve greatness than the good old days. You can't just show up and get results in a snap. That's exactly why V/M's achievements are more valuable.

To achieve greatness T&D didn’t need such a big team of people V&M need. I have impression that Tessa and Scott need to be held by hand and guided all the time. I would like to see what they are capable themselves.

It is the norm for skaters to have teams these days.

However, I don't think Tessa and Scott or other contemporary skaters are hand-held or guided any more than skaters have been in the past.

Skaters in the past also had a team - those who supported, encouraged, motivated and trained them - but the formal notion of 'team' wasn't as important as it is today.

The 'team' concept is trendy at the present.

Also, it is rather pointless to compare T/D to V/M in terms of accomplishments and status because ice dance has evolved so dramatically since the '80s.

In terms of beautiful, outstanding performances and FS, both pairs are/were distinguished.

Really, we should all just be greatly appreciative of the wonderful skating/programs of both teams.

 

[MsZem]

Rossig, you have this weird standard of your own, such as how much skaters do their own choreography, etc. And you're making others accept that as one of the criteria for GOAT. In fact, not many people care about who did the choreography, they care about how great the skaters perform it and what the competition results are.

It must be very difficult to accept that some posters have different standards from your own.

Rossig has explained clearly why she/he does not feel that V/M should be considered the greatest ever. If there is no room for disagreement and the only criteria is "how well they performed" (in the eyes of their fans) and "what the results are" (excluding events won by D/W, including events that did not exist when past greats competed), why have this thread?

Fans like you make me rethink my views on D/W.

Really?

Really.

 

[Anyasnake]

Everyone has its views etc, the conversation V/M and T/D is really interesting though. Because it just shows how these were 2 different eras in terms of everything.

T/D won OGM in 1984 and turned professional. And as we all know, the competition system was very different. I always said that artistically there's a massive gap between those 2 because we're obviously not going to see V/M in professional competitions, letting creativity all out instead of "IJS choreo"... because it just doesn't exists anymore. I regret it, because I imagine some skaters skating professional like Meryl&Charlie did after Sochi in shows, and it allowed them to go further, and I like their numbers even more now. Putting on a show for figure skating popularity would be great... and needed these days. But then, V/M will skate in shows for years and have different numbers, it will be great. After 2014 and before their comeback in 2016 what has changed the most to me is their confidence and abilities to connect with the audience because they toured for 2 years. I do think Show skating is necessary because it gives another layer to your performance (and why it's harder for some younger skaters but they will learn !).

Today it is full-on about competition. Some skaters (V/M are prime example) have a massive team around them. Javier, Yuzuru, Yuna too. The judging did evolve, even the skaters agree. You just couldn't see in the past a Shibs, V/M or P/C case. It pushes the skaters more to competition and to fight for those spots, it has become more interesting IMO, especially for the younger ones. So your federation can (or should!) invest in you, maybe more skaters can get more sponsors, etc.

These parallels could be done with other disciplines. Irina Rodnina vs Aljona Savchenko ? Dick Button vs Yuzuru Hanyu ?
I would really like to know how these skaters were managed at the time, it could make an interesting subject.
I wonder how it was during the Grishuk/Platov era... all the documentaries I found were about drama, scandals, bar fights and divas. I don't like when the skating is put aside.

 

[Twilight1]

V/M had it 1000x easier in their come-back compared to T/D, both with judges and the system.

BWAHAHAHA- sure they did. T&D were living legends in Lillehammer on the ice.

 

[dramagrrl]

It's hilarious that the few posters who keep arguing with all their might that V&M should not even be considered as candidates for ice dance GOAT, regardless of people's personal opinions, keep bringing up skaters like D&W and T&D in defense when it is obvious that they are ubers of a certain other team who are still salty over said team's Olympic result. (I mean, really?? As successful as D&W were in the Sochi quad, I don't think even the wildest D&W ubers would argue that D&W are the greatest ice dance team of all time.)

 

[Japanfan]

I do think Show skating is necessary because it gives another layer to your performance (and why it's harder for some younger skaters but they will learn !).

I rarely find that show skating adds another layer or dimension to skaters' work.

I find most show performances generic and cliche. For example, there are the standard 'flirty girls' and 'flirty boys' numbers.

But, I'm probably missing something here since I'm not a fan of shows particularly. Skaters seem to really enjoy choreographing and performing show numbers, so they must find it challenging and rewarding.

 

[Anyasnake]

I rarely find that show skating adds another layer or dimension to skaters' work.

I find most show performances generic and cliche. For example, there are the standard 'flirty girls' and 'flirty boys' numbers.

But, I'm probably missing something here since I'm not a fan of shows particularly. Skaters seem to really enjoy choreographing and performing show numbers, so they must find it challenging and rewarding.

I'm not a fan of that either, but comparing V/M's skating in 2014 and in 2016 I found a big difference performance-wise. More "open", a lot more confident. I honestly think skating in shows for 2 years helped them do that.

 

[Viscaro]

Okay @dramagrrl that's off-topic but do you ever write a message without the word/lexeme "salt" in it ?

 

[MsZem]

Okay @dramagrrl that's off-topic but do you ever write a message without the word/lexeme "salt" in it ?

I was wondering about that myself. Maybe her food lacks flavor and she's compensating?

 

[Icetigger]

I was wondering that too, too. But then I just blocked her (as with forthewin). "Salt" isn't good for anyone; and seems as much the hallmark of junk posts as junk foods. Anyway, anyone who can't argue their case and just results to a personal attack isn't worth arguing with, whether it's dramagrrl with her "saltiness" or forthewin with his/her "delusional".

 

[forthewin]

Wow, Mocking other posters now? P/C ubers surely get to new low everyday. The bitterness is so delicious, no pun intended.

 

[MsZem]

Wow, Mocking other posters now? P/C ubers surely get to new low everyday.

I really don't understand why you'd assume that people who prefer Torvill/Dean, or Klimova/Ponomarneko, or for all I care Skary Babs and Maurizio, are also necessarily P/C ubers.

 

[Viscaro]

I do disagree with you @Icetigger because I love salt (and therefore, I have to agree with @forthewin ): to it eat in my butter (I never eat non-salt butter), for example. Or the way it pickles you skin when you dry after swimming into the sea...

Let me quote this highly regarded scientific source that is wikipedia in defence of salt :

Sodium serves a vital purpose in the human body: via its role as an electrolyte, it helps nerves and muscles to function correctly, and it is one factor involved in the osmotic regulation of water content in body organs (fluid balance).

It's more the repetition of it that annoyed me. One can use other terms or expressions like :
- you are the perfection combination of sodium of chloride
- I read your posts like I float in the Dead Sea
- Is this the Wieliczka church ?
- You should worry about your blood circulation
etc etc... Sky is the limit !

 

[Twilight1]

Salt and potassium are necessary for our bodies. If you have too much salt... just drink more water. Osmosis just helps you detox the extra sodium.

 

[barbarafan]

Can a couple that only won the Freedance twice at Worlds really be thought to be the G.O.A.T.? Not in my opinion.

Obviously they can