2025 U.S. Nationals in Wichita, KS & Skate America returns to Allen, TX in 2024

Karen-W

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Revised color-coded schedule for Wichita Nats: Draft 4.0, as of Jan 4:


One of the changes (I haven't looked carefully for other changes) is for Saturday competition order. Revised order is:

Senior Men SP groups 1 and 2 starting 9:58 am​
Senior FD groups 1 and 2​
Senior Men SP group 3​
Senior FD group 3 ending 3:23 pm​
Senior Pairs FS starting 6:35 pm​
Given that NBC's broadcast is scheduled to start at 2:30pm ET, this doesn't surprise me. It's a 2hr broadcast, so they'll be starting with the Men's SP Group 3 and finishing with the Sr FD Group 3. They also won't be showing all three of the Pairs FS groups either - the evening broadcast on USA starts at 8pm PT, which is 30 min after the Pairs FS begins.
 

Debbie S

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It looks like the revised schedule may have been taken down in the last hour or so, since ice coverage's post. The link in the post and the one on the USFS website take you to the 1.0 version from 11/22.

ETA: Never mind, I cleared my cache and now have the updated version.
 

ice coverage

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Given that NBC's broadcast is scheduled to start at 2:30pm ET, this doesn't surprise me. It's a 2hr broadcast, so they'll be starting with the Men's SP Group 3 and finishing with the Sr FD Group 3. ...

Original version of the color-coded schedule already showed that Men SP group 3 would be followed immediately by FD group 3 -- so what you are saying re NBC is true, but not new.

Original order was:
FD groups 1 and 2
Men SP groups 1, 2, and 3
FD group 3​
Men SP originally was not split, although FD was.

As Sylvia said, now both FD and Men SP are split.
 

Sylvia

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wrong thread (but tangentially related to U.S. Women's news thread): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-women-7-make-me-a-believer.112409/page-2#post-6710272

ETA:
Given that NBC's broadcast is scheduled to start at 2:30pm ET, this doesn't surprise me. It's a 2hr broadcast, so they'll be starting with the Men's SP Group 3 and finishing with the Sr FD Group 3.
Saturday 1/25/25 (Central time) - colored schedule version 4.0:
9:58-11:34 am Men SP groups 1 & 2
11:50 am-1:21 pm Free Dance groups 1 & 2
1:36-2:23 pm Men SP group 3
2:38-3:23 pm FD group 3
 
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Debbie S

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Not that this matters, but obviously NBC wants to show Ilia's SP live, so that means Ilia will be guaranteed to be 'drawn' in group 3. So much for random draw. Again, not that it matters, but it is irritating that USFS is circumventing its comp rules to satisfy NBC (on top of splitting the sched).

Reminds me of 2022 when USFS changed the number of skaters in the penultimate men's group after the draw to adhere to broadcast times, and rather than redoing the draw for the first 2 groups, just moved the last skater in the first group into the second group, even though their SP placement was lower than one of the skaters before them in the order.
 

Sylvia

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Does anyone recall if this Nationals SP/RD draw rule was in effect for Columbus 2024 last year (or earlier?) or is this new for this year?

USFS Rulebook:
2720 Draws for Initial Starting Orders – Singles, Pairs and Ice Dance
2721 At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships only, the starting order for the junior and championship (senior) women’s, men’s and pairs short program and junior and championship (senior) rhythm dance events will be established as follows:
A. The competitors who hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate in reverse order of their ISU World Standings, as of the date of the draw, with the highest ranked competitor skating last.
B. Any competitors who don't hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate first in their event. The starting order for these remaining competitors will be by closed, random draw conducted by the chief referee and chief accountant.

ETA:

Current ISU WS (Senior Men competing at Nationals):
1 Malinin
21 Brown
24 Torgashev
26 Pulkinen
33 Sanchez
47 Ma //
50 Martynov
53 Naumov
64 Kapeikis
71 Hiwatashi
89 Strommer
94 Xie //
99 Endo
128 Klein
164 Kovar
172 Mindra
225 Kazanecki
unranked: Savary

ETA 2 - I've put the 2025 Nationals SP draw order in the U.S. Women's new thread (post #48): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-women-7-make-me-a-believer.112409/page-2#post-6710351
 
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Debbie S

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Hmm, that could have been the rule last year, looking at the start orders. I didn't realize they changed the rule....I thought it was top 10 from the previous year draw from the final 12 spots.

Obviously another rule to satisfy NBC but at least it's an official rule and not make it up as we go along.
 

ice coverage

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750
Does anyone recall if this Nationals SP/RD draw rule was in effect for Columbus 2024 last year (or earlier?) or is this new for this year?

USFS Rulebook:
2720 Draws for Initial Starting Orders – Singles, Pairs and Ice Dance
2721 At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships only, the starting order for the junior and championship (senior) women’s, men’s and pairs short program and junior and championship (senior) rhythm dance events will be established as follows:
A. The competitors who hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate in reverse order of their ISU World Standings, as of the date of the draw, with the highest ranked competitor skating last].
B. Any competitors who don't hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate first in their event. The starting order for these remaining competitors will be by closed, random draw conducted by the chief referee and chief accountant.

Same rule was in rulebook for 2023-24 season (p. 133):


But it was new for 2023-24, apparently.

ETA:​

The new rule based on (ETA: simply reverse order of) ISU World Standings was approved at USFS Governing Council in May 2023.
See pp. 105-106 of Combined Report of Action for 2022-23.


ETA:​

The rules applicable to 2023 Nats, from 2022-23 rulebook (p. 135):​

2720 Draws for Initial Starting Orders – Singles, Pairs and Ice Dance
2721 At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships only, the championship (senior) women’s, men’s and pairs short program and championship (senior) rhythm dance events will be drawn in four subgroups:
A. The skaters who qualify according to rules 2501 (B)(1-3), 2502 (B)(1-3) or 2503 (B)(1-3) will draw randomly from the first subgroup to skate within the last two warm-up groups;
B. Previous winners of the same event at the U.S. Figure Skating Championships who were not in the first subgroup will draw from most recent to least recent from the second sub-group to skate within the last two warm up groups;
C. The skaters who hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline who were not in the first or second subgroups will draw from the third subgroup in order of their ISU World Standings, as of the date of the draw, for the remaining spots in the last two warm up groups, until the number of spots has been filled or there are no additional skaters in the ISU World Standings.
D. The remaining competitors will draw randomly from the fourth subgroup to skate in the remaining spots.​

2501 (B)(1-3), 2502 (B)(1-3) or 2503 (B)(1-3) refer to skaters with three certain types of byes: top five at previous year's Nats; those selected for most recent Worlds; individual medalists from most recent Olympics (team event does not count).
Not included in 2721 (A) were those with byes per 2501 (B)(4), 2502 (B)(4) or 2503 (B)(4), meaning qualifiers to GPF/JGPF.

 
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Karen-W

YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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Hmm, that could have been the rule last year, looking at the start orders. I didn't realize they changed the rule....I thought it was top 10 from the previous year draw from the final 12 spots.

Obviously another rule to satisfy NBC but at least it's an official rule and not make it up as we go along.
FWIW, it also aligns with the ISU's recent changes to SP starting orders for ISU Championships.
 

jägerbomb

Member
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This schedule is one of the worst in the 24 years I've been attending. Second only to 2010 when they split the senior events over two weekends.
Agreed. NBC and USFS are stuck in a mid-1990s business model. No one under the age of 50 cares about live television anymore. How about less cringe social media and more accessible streaming?

This schedule is a disgrace to both the competitors and spectators.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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One of the best things about TV coverage of US nationals is getting to see the skaters in the middle/lower placings. That's also a big thing for the skaters - they know they might not get a medal but they might get to be on TV. This isn't going to happen with this new structure. Why is NBC ruining one of the good things about its coverage?
 

Karen-W

YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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One of the best things about TV coverage of US nationals is getting to see the skaters in the middle/lower placings. That's also a big thing for the skaters - they know they might not get a medal but they might get to be on TV. This isn't going to happen with this new structure. Why is NBC ruining one of the good things about its coverage?
Because NBC realizes that the people who WANT to watch all the middle/lower placing skaters will find it on Peacock?
 

Yuri

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836
Saturday 1/25/25 (Central time) - colored schedule version 4.0:
9:58-11:34 am Men SP groups 1 & 2
11:50 am-1:21 pm Free Dance groups 1 & 2
1:36-2:23 pm Men SP group 3
2:38-3:23 pm FD group 3
I checked out how the individual event tickets work and was surprised to see that there are TWO sessions one must purchase to see the entire Championship Men SP and Championship Dance FD:
  • Session 1: Men SP Group 1+2, Dance FD Group 1+2
  • Session 2: Men SP Group 3, Dance FD Group 3

So if you are attending just to see the Free Dance (or the Men SP), you would have to purchase an individual ticket for BOTH sessions. Therefore, one could have different seats for Groups 1+2 and Group 3. It looks like the arena must turn over the seats by clearing Session 1 and seating Session 2 within a normal 15-minute ice make--right before the live broadcast!

Does anyone recall if this Nationals SP/RD draw rule was in effect for Columbus 2024 last year (or earlier?) or is this new for this year?

USFS Rulebook:
2720 Draws for Initial Starting Orders – Singles, Pairs and Ice Dance
2721 At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships only, the starting order for the junior and championship (senior) women’s, men’s and pairs short program and junior and championship (senior) rhythm dance events will be established as follows:
A. The competitors who hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate in reverse order of their ISU World Standings, as of the date of the draw, with the highest ranked competitor skating last.
B. Any competitors who don't hold an ISU World Standing in their discipline will skate first in their event. The starting order for these remaining competitors will be by closed, random draw conducted by the chief referee and chief accountant.
Back in the old days when I was still a USFS(A) accountant, the official rule book did have special "U.S. Nationals" rules for draws, warm-up groups, and skating orders. So this isn't really a new thing to accommodate live TV and they don't make it up on the fly, and I am sure that the precise rules have evolved over the years. Still, it sucks for both the audience and more importantly the competitors to create a two-tier system. Especially the pre-rankings for the initial Short Program/Rhythm Dance which encourage "protocol" judging.
 

Carolla5501

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As for "lower seeded" skaters being on TV really? When? The reason I started going to Nationals was after my first live event (the first one in Nashville, I realized "wait ABC has been fibbing.... there are LOTS of skaters you never see on TV" Now at least I can watch them on Peacock if I can rearrange my entire life since "replay" is too hard for them (no I don't buy the music line... there's no "free 48 hour licenses" LOL)
 

Debbie S

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As for "lower seeded" skaters being on TV really? When? The reason I started going to Nationals was after my first live event (the first one in Nashville, I realized "wait ABC has been fibbing.... there are LOTS of skaters you never see on TV" Now at least I can watch them on Peacock if I can rearrange my entire life since "replay" is too hard for them (no I don't buy the music line... there's no "free 48 hour licenses" LOL)
Depending on how much time NBC (and USA, etc) allots for their broadcast, they have occasionally shown the final 2 groups (so skaters ranked 12th or better) in men and women, both SP and FS, it varied. Sometimes we've even seen group 2 in dance and pairs.
 

Coco

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This is not the thread for it, but after my last in person Nationals, I want a preliminary round of FS/FD, then the top 3 warmup groups worth of skaters/teams for the SP/SD (18 singles, 12 pairs, 15 dance) then the top 2 warmup groups worth of skaters/teams for the FS/FD. Based on past performance, skaters can earn byes to either the preliminary round or the SP/SD. The number of qualifiers can be increased since the SP/SD and FS/FD field sizes are capped.
 

Karen-W

YMCA is such a catchy tune!
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This is not the thread for it, but after my last in person Nationals, I want a preliminary round of FS/FD, then the top 3 warmup groups worth of skaters/teams for the SP/SD (18 singles, 12 pairs, 15 dance) then the top 2 warmup groups worth of skaters/teams for the FS/FD. Based on past performance, skaters can earn byes to either the preliminary round or the SP/SD. The number of qualifiers can be increased since the SP/SD and FS/FD field sizes are capped.
A preliminary round would be unnecessary for pairs & ice dance most years. Between injuries & splits, we had exactly 12 pairs teams & 15 ice dance teams earn Byes + Competing at Pairs/Dance Finals. Some years, we've had less than 12 pairs teams, but the US seems to hover right around those magical 12 & 15 numbers in both fields competing in the NQS or with automatic Byes through to the Finals or Nats.

As far as the Singles... I don’t agree about the need for a preliminary round. The #3 women's alternate barely cracked 160 at Sectionals. And the #1 men's alternate scored 192 at Sectionals. Sure, it's disappointing for them, but those are domestic scores & aren't competitive internationally. Adding more skaters dilutes the exclusiveness of the event.
 
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ice coverage

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... And the #1 men's alternate scored 192 at Sectionals. Sure, it's disappointing for them, but those are domestic scores & aren't competitive internationally. Adding more skaters dilutes the exclusiveness of the event.

I do not have an opinion re preliminary rounds, but the nature of sectionals is that someone who unfortunately is off their usual game could end up not scoring high enough to advance to Nats.
Which is what happened with the #1 men's alternate this year -- otherwise I think he would have had a pretty good chance of placing in top twelve at Nats. Other results from this season: his senior score from Glacier Falls was 215; his JGP score was 197.
 

victorskid

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Just a reminder that there are folks outside of the USA who might be interested in watching some of the skaters not scheduled to be seen on NBC TV and who are unable to watch Peacock. It's not only viewers within the USA who might be missing out on this opportunity :(
 

Sylvia

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As for "lower seeded" skaters being on TV really? When? The reason I started going to Nationals was after my first live event (the first one in Nashville, I realized "wait ABC has been fibbing.... there are LOTS of skaters you never see on TV"
1997 Nationals in Nashville was when ABC showed the final 2 FS groups of ladies LIVE on TV (remember Alizah Allen's Don Quixote FS?).

Woah, a quick search online turned up this recap of ABC's Nationals broadcast (Saturday, February 15, 1997 from 8-11 pm ET): https://www.paleycenter.org/collection/item/?q=spin&p=20&item=T:47480
 

gkelly

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Except perhaps for women, having a preliminary round at the Nationals venue early in the week would either duplicate or replace the Sectional competition (or the US Pair or Dance Final) held in November, for junior and senior levels. Those events would still need to exist for the lower levels.

This would cost a lot more for USFS to host the additional days of events at the more expensive Nationals venue. It would be less money for the skaters if they get to compete earlier in the week at Nationals instead of at Sectionals -- it would be more money (and more competition experience) if they have to do both and need to plan for either staying at Nationals if they qualify to advance or likely going home if they don't.

Would Peacock cover the preliminary rounds by arriving earlier at the Nationals venue? Would they do this instead of covering Sectionals and the pair/dance finals? The coverage for lower levels at those events is not on Peacock.
Would Peacock earn enough ad revenue to make it worth their while to cover them? Could they be streamed for a fee elsewhere, to interested fans around the world? How many fans would pay to watch US preliminary rounds, and if so would they also be willing to pay to watch Sectionals without overlapping times at the three venues?

The main people who would benefit would be fans who can afford to take the whole week off to view the preliminary rounds in person (rather than also traveling to a sectional competition in November) -- how many fans would be able to stay that whole time and how much extra would they pay for that opportunity?

Preliminary rounds could be held in a local practice rink and/or be open to the public for inexpensive tickets -- which might encourage some locals who bought those cheap tickets to spring for individual event final round tickets later in the week, if available.

But would that bring in enough extra money to compensate for the extra ice rental and the extra days of accommodations and hospitality for the officials?
 
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jägerbomb

Member
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1997 Nationals in Nashville was when ABC showed the final 2 FS groups of ladies LIVE on TV (remember Alizah Allen's Don Quixote FS?).

Woah, a quick search online turned up this recap of ABC's Nationals broadcast (Saturday, February 15, 1997 from 8-11 pm ET): https://www.paleycenter.org/collection/item/?q=spin&p=20&item=T:47480
ABC also showed the entire penultimate group at 1998 Nationals live...I vividly remember watching Sarah Devereaux's Charlie Daniels Band LP!
 
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Sfiers

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Does anyone know where the practice sessions are located? On the colored schedule it’s obvious that the schedule on the left for a day is at the main arena. What about the practice sessions located on the right for a sayb
 

Sfiers

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Posted on Dec. 2 in this thread:
There has to be 2 separate practice sites. If you look on the colored schedule, each day has 2 schedules. One lists the competitions and some practice sessions in between . The other one has a completely different schedule with different practice sessions
 

Sylvia

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"Main" (first column) is the INTRUST Bank Arena; "Practice" is where I posted above.

ETA: Are the practices in the main arena only open to All Event ticket holders, like in the past?
 

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