Should spins and steps be worth more under IJS?

[Marco]

Spins and steps are worth relatively little compared to jumps.

For example, Nathan Chen at GP France - His spins in the short are worth 19.79% of his BV when they are 3 out of 7 of the required elements (42.86%). His spins in the free are worth 11.28% of his BV when they are 3 out of 12 elements (25%).

In the ladies - take Mariah Bell who is one of the best spinners in the field. Her spins in the short are worth 28.94% of her BV when they are 3 out of 7 of the required elements (42.86%). Her spins in the free are worth 15.94% of her BV when they are 3 out of 12 elements (25%).

Same for steps obviously.

Now that there are more and more difficult jumps in both men and ladies, and there is +5/-5, making the ratio of spins and steps compared to both BV and TES to be even lower - yet these elements often take up a large chunk of time and energy in the entire performance. Should their BV and GOEs be re-evaluated? Would this help even out the heavy focus on quads and shift back to skills?

 

[Vash01]

Sounds like a topic to be discussed in the Trash Can, unless there is an article/video etc. that is discussing it. It could be an interesting discussion. I don't think footwork and spins should count more. The most athletic part of FS is jumps.

 

[tony]

Sounds like a topic to be discussed in the Trash Can, unless there is an article/video etc. that is discussing it. It could be an interesting discussion. I don't think footwork and spins should count more. The most athletic part of FS is jumps.

I don’t have time to read a lot of what is posted in the trash can, and since this is numbers heavy I think GSD could be fine. We have moderators for that, though!

I actually think the scale of values and GOE’s, at least in singles skating, are working well now. But I still think top skaters are getting generous GOE versus the mid-level skaters who might do elements really well but not get rewarded appropriately.

Most skaters can pull off level 4 spins, but most skaters are not able to do quad jumps. There has to be enough of a differentiation technically IMO.

I think most of us feel the PCS needs an overhaul, though.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Well, it is too many numbers for my brain. But I think COP has become another convenient to handle placements (just like 6.0) "The more things change, the more they remain the same." French writer Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr,

 

[caseyedwards]

Omg jason brown just won a silver medal spins and steps are worth too much now !!!!!

 

[skateboy]

I think point values for spins and steps are awarded appropriately.

 

[MacMadame]

Whenever they mess with the Base values to make jumps or other really hard elements such as a quad twist worth fewer points (usually to get cleaner programs), it backfires and they increase the values again. Increasing what Spins and step sequences are worth would be the same sort of thing.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Jump base values need to be lowered monotonously across the board. They fixed the GOE weight problem, and made the relative BVs more accurate though some are still whacked out.

The step sequence should be worth more. Spins are fine.

Of course, judges do not give GOEs properly. They think that if a skater just stays on their feet for a jump or spin, etc. it’s worth +2 or +3. most elements are usually worth 0 or +1 the majority of the time; they are simple average with nothing extraordinary or superb about them. As far as I’m concerned, if there is any error or mistake on the element, the GOE should automatically be in the negatives; the mistake absolutely negates any positives of the elements. this would help bring the TES closer in line with PCS also.

 

[bardtoob]

Omg jason brown just won a silver medal spins and steps are worth too much now !!!!!

He "won" something that really meant nothing. Vincent Zhou could come back tomorrow untrained and beat him.

Jason won't retire and won't progress. All he wants to do is spiral like Sasha Cohen.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

There are spin prodigies just like jump prodigies. A spin is athletic - holding center, moving through various positions, maintaining speed. When you watch Tim Dolensky or Alicia Czisney the audience claps loudly at these amazing elements. Yet great spinners get about as much as average spinners. There should be the chance of a 7-8 point spin. Of course this assumes the judges would use it properly and not to top up the score of big jumpers.

Personally, these jump-heavy programs are boring to me. Even Chen said a couple of years ago the possibility of interesting choreography is limited by quads. You spend the whole program setting them up, doing them and recovering. To me all this jumping has turned skating into an X-sport. Mogules, skate boarding, etc.

Oh, my I seem to be in a rant!

 

[Japanfan]

Well, the jumps are the highest risk elements, so higher risk arguably merits higher reward.

 

[SmallFairy]

For the lower levels, CoP works a bit differently than for the top athtletes doing quads, as spins are worth much more compared to jumps when you're just doing singles. A single axel is worth 1.10, the same value as a Basic Sit spin. If you get level 1 for that Sit spin, you get 1.30 BV, which feels strange, since I see the kids practice and practice and practice for that axel, and it takes them forever, but they can spin with such ease, and get the levels easily. Don't even get me started on us adults.... 0.40 for 1T, 0.60 for 1z and 1.00 for Basic Upright spin.

But of course, I know CoP are really not designed for the lower levels. On the top level, I would love to see the really good stand-out spinners awarded even more than today.

 

[zigzig]

Absolutely not. They should get rid of leveled step sequences all together. They’re long, laborious and rarely in concert with music.

 

[flyingsit]

I think spins should be worth more, but it also should be harder to get top levels on spins. For example, a L4 spin should require a minimum of 6 revolutions in each position -- so that skaters need to spin faster in order to fit it in. And centering/speed should matter more than positions.

If it was that easy to be a great spinner, you'd see more spinners like Alissa Czisny or Keegan Messing.

 

[tony]

Absolutely not. They should get rid of leveled step sequences all together. They’re long, laborious and rarely in concert with music.

I think it’s 100x better now than it was when skaters were taking 45+ seconds on the norm to fit every kind of move they could into the steps. Many choreographers have really gotten the steps right with the music, but I agree that, at least in the free programs, I think they should go the route of ice dance and make a bunch of different choreographic elements to replace the long step sequence.

 

[umronnie]

Yes, non-jump elements should be worth more. A level 4 spin or step-sequence should have the base value of at least a 3Loop, maybe even a Lutz.
I would also love it if they removed the restrictions on elements (i.e. number of spins, steps and jumps) and just left a total number of elements (12) and a set of Zayak rules (these already exist for spins, as well). At least for the long ("free") program. The short, as a "technical" program is more structured and more balanced, anyway.
This way an exceptional spinner could replace one or two jumps with spins for approximately the same BV, or someone who's injury prohibits them from doing a certain jump can replace it with a good step sequence instead of yet another 2A.

 

[Coco]

There are spin prodigies just like jump prodigies. A spin is athletic - holding center, moving through various positions, maintaining speed. When you watch Tim Dolensky or Alicia Czisney the audience claps loudly at these amazing elements. Yet great spinners get about as much as average spinners. There should be the chance of a 7-8 point spin. Of course this assumes the judges would use it properly and not to top up the score of big jumpers.

Personally, these jump-heavy programs are boring to me. Even Chen said a couple of years ago the possibility of interesting choreography is limited by quads. You spend the whole program setting them up, doing them and recovering. To me all this jumping has turned skating into an X-sport. Mogules, skate boarding, etc.

Oh, my I seem to be in a rant!

This X 1000!!

IJS doesn't adequately reward the Czissnys and Lambiels. I think that is a bigger concern than the shrinking % of overall base value, although Marco posted interesting stats.


ETA: I would love to see metrics (jump height and distance, rotational speed for spins + centering/synchronicity) play more of a factor in GOE.

 

[tony]

This X 1000!!

IJS doesn't adequately reward the Czissnys and Lambiels. I think that is a bigger concern than the shrinking % of overall base value, although Marco posted interesting stats.


ETA: I would love to see metrics (jump height and distance, rotational speed for spins + centering/synchronicity) play more of a factor in GOE.

This is really a topic for another thread, but Lambiel had a pretty average to weak camel spin and was often traveling all over the place on his sit spins and upright (scratch) spins. So there's sometimes a tradeoff when it comes to fast rotations and/or unique positions, and we shouldn't just start them at a high level because certain criteria are fulfilled while neglecting other aspects of the spin.

Every once in a while we do an exceptional spin(ner), and I think earning 5+ points for the best of the best is pretty fair.

 

[alexikeguchi]

This is slightly off the topic of the thread, but related; I think all jumps of the same revolution number should have the same base value. While the traditional order of learning multi revolution jumps was sal, toe, loop, flip, and lutz, most skaters I trained with had one or a couple takeoffs come much more easily to them. One of the higher level competitors at my rink had a great lutz, and that was her first triple, landed on her third attempt ever. Salchow and toe were much more laborious. For myself (doing doubles), loop was the easiest followed in order by flip, lutz, and sal, and toe loop was pretty hard for me since I wasn't lifting directly into my rotation position. I don't see why one skater should get 1-2 more points for the same number of rotations just because flip/lutz are more natural for them than salchow for example.

 

[Orm Irian]

If Level 4 spins are too easy to get, how about creating a Level 5 or even Level 6 spin category that challenges the best spinners to really extend themselves? Higher levels = higher base value = really good spinners getting a BV boost for the things they are exceptionally good at and that the majority of other skaters can't do.

 

[MacMadame]

If Level 4 spins are too easy to get, how about creating a Level 5 or even Level 6 spin category that challenges the best spinners to really extend themselves? Higher levels = higher base value = really good spinners getting a BV boost for the things they are exceptionally good at and that the majority of other skaters can't do.

I think that makes a lot more sense than making a L4 spin have a BV that same as a triple jump.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think it is a great idea to make spins more valuable and more complicated and with innovative positions.

Russian and Chinese girls are very flexible, they start early, have great teachers, and can hit some positions very few in the world can...

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2247113.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Russian-born-contortionist-Zlata.jpg

https://www.scarlettentertainment.com/sites/default/files/Suli-Chinese-Contortionist1.jpg

https://abenderfan.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/30602119_1043572235790859_1215122204535029760_n.jpg?w=334&h=334&crop=1

https://www.scarlettentertainment.com/sites/default/files/img_Suli-Chinese-Contortionist5.jpg

https://abenderfan.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/gmli8lgrerg.jpg?w=691&h=&zoom=2

Just imagine, Eteri can get 10 girls who can spin in this position at a snap.......

https://www.scarlettentertainment.com/sites/default/files/CONTORTIONIST-CIRCUS-PERFORMER-11.jpg

 

[Tavi]

If Level 4 spins are too easy to get, how about creating a Level 5 or even Level 6 spin category that challenges the best spinners to really extend themselves? Higher levels = higher base value = really good spinners getting a BV boost for the things they are exceptionally good at and that the majority of other skaters can't do.

Almost all level 4 spins have a lower base value than a 2A. Each level only adds about .50 in GOE. So creating a level 5 spin wouldn’t really change much.

 

[MAXSwagg]

A Level 5?! The goal should be to make the system SIMPLER, not even more convoluted.

 

[Orm Irian]

Almost all level 4 spins have a lower base value than a 2A. Each level only adds about .50 in GOE. So creating a level 5 spin wouldn’t really change much.

Then tweak the BV a little and add the extra levels too. Or double the BV increase and GOE amount for the new levels to emphasise the extra difficulty. There's precedent for a pattern break in the different GOE percentages for the Choreo Sequence.

Across three spins per program that would add something at least.

 

[Tavi]

Then tweak the BV a little and add the extra levels too. Or double the BV increase and GOE amount for the new levels to emphasise the extra difficulty. There's precedent for a pattern break in the different GOE percentages for the Choreo Sequence.

Across three spins per program that would add something at least.

I personally think spins and steps should have higher base values relative to jumps. I would also be fine with adding levels to spins. It’s probably also time to change PCS factoring for ladies and even to consider increasing the cap overall.

But I still see the biggest issue as how PCS and GOE are awarded. It’s pretty common for quads that aren’t great quality to be awarded relatively high GOE, and for skaters to be awarded extra PCS because they did a hard quad or lots of quads.

People usually say it doesn’t matter if PCS is objectively too high because “it’s only a few points” and “the placements are still right.” But if you consider that the TES may also be too high by several points due to the GOE, the placements may actually not be right.

If you have the highest difficulty, great quality jumps and superior skating and performance skills, yeah, you absolutely deserve all the points and first place. But if you have hard jumps that are not executed very well, not such great skating skills, and performance skills that suffer because you’re so focused on those hard jumps, you don’t deserve all the points, only some of them.

I think the sport needs to decide what it wants to be. If skating and performance skills and quality of execution are really unimportant, stop pretending they are and get rid of PCS, GOE, and “programs” entirely. There’s no need to compete spins and steps if all you really care about is quads.

 

[skatingguy]

A Level 5?! The goal should be to make the system SIMPLER, not even more convoluted.

Important to remember that there are five levels already - Base, 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5.

 

[Seerek]

Interesting to note, artistic roller skating's relative weighting of steps/spins of a typical elite free skate in their Code of Points is actually quite comparable (e.g. 10-15% of base value for the top men).

 

[MacMadame]

Important to remember that there are five levels already - Base, 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5.

If Base is a level, wouldn't that be 6 levels?

 

[bardtoob]

If Base is a level, wouldn't that be 6 levels?

Mine goes to 11.

Spinal Tap - "These go to eleven...."

Spinal Tap lead guitarist, Nigel Tufnel explains the importance of going to 11...

youtu.be