Royalty Thread #16: the best of times, the worst of times

[once_upon]

You said King Charles is more likable now, while still blaming Camilla for the affair.

I think Camilla is more likable than Charles.

 

[taf2002]

You said King Charles is more likable now, while still blaming Camilla for the affair.

I think Camilla is more likable than Charles.

I did not blame only Camilla, I blamed her for taunting Diana (an unsophisticated young wife) with it. I happened to view this as absolutely no class. YMMV

 

[canbelto]

I did not blame only Camilla, I blamed her for taunting Diana (an unsophisticated young wife) with it. I happened to view this as absolutely no class. YMMV

Diana might have been young, but at no point was she ever "unsophisticated." She learned to manipulate the media very early and remained masterful at doing so.

 

[Karen-W]

Diana might have been young, but at no point was she ever "unsophisticated." She learned to manipulate the media very early and remained masterful at doing so.

Yes. Meghan aspires to that level of sophistication - and is not likely to ever achieve it.

 

[Winnipeg]

I find neither of them likeable.

I do find Kate and William likeable

 

[taf2002]

Yes. Meghan aspires to that level of sophistication - and is not likely to ever achieve it.

Yes, we know that about you. You know what Meghan aspires to. And no, Diana was not sophisticated when she 1st married or for several years after. She learned fast...actually Camilla may have helped with that. I'm sure her rose-colored glasses fell off.

 

[once_upon]

I find it interesting how we, me included, think we know all about the BRF marriages and the level of sophistication and their motives.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Well, Diana Spencer did say she wanted to marry Prince Charles one day. In the "'Be careful what you wish for' for $100, Alex" kind of way.

 

[Winnipeg]

I do think Diana went into the marriage with the full expectation of it being a life long loving relationship.

 

[overedge]

And Diana taunted Camilla and Charles with the "three of us in the marriage" comment. It went both ways.

 

[Sparks]

She wasn't wrong

 

[cygnus]

She wasn't wrong

Well, she miscounted a bit, as her affairs with Hewitt, (and Manakee before that), and various others- some of them married -would have added a few more.

 

[Vagabond]

@cygnus Your rug goes very well with your dog.

 

[Winnipeg]

I thought her comment about 3 in the marriage was bang on.

IMHO Charles was really the person responsible for the fiasco. He should have stated his love for CP right at the outset and marry her, accepting consequences, or been faithful to Diana while married to her. The down side is that Andrew would have stepped in and that would have been awful (I think).

 

[MacMadame]

I thought her comment about 3 in the marriage was bang on.

IMHO Charles was really the person responsible for the fiasco. He should have stated his love for CP right at the outset and marry her, accepting consequences, or been faithful to Diana while married to her. The down side is that Andrew would have stepped in and that would have been awful (I think).

And her affairs were in retaliation. So it's not like they had an open marriage but it's that he never stopped seeing Camila and Diana decided to seek what she wasn't getting from him from other men rather than divorcing him (which I think she thought she couldn't do) or just sucking it up and accepting it.

 

[Karen-W]

And her affairs were in retaliation. So it's not like they had an open marriage but it's that he never stopped seeing Camila and Diana decided to seek what she wasn't getting from him from other men rather than divorcing him (which I think she thought she couldn't do) or just sucking it up and accepting it.

I don't know that any of us can unequivocally state that Charles never stopped seeing Camilla after he and Diana got married. The timeline of their relationship has never been confirmed but I'm pretty sure he DID break things off with Camilla for a few years and only took it back up after he realized that his marriage to Diana was, if not completely broken then not something that would turn into an amicable love match. They were far too different for the marriage to be a success in the end. Diana wasn't willing to settle for a loveless marriage and that's completely fair, especially knowing the childhood trauma she suffered from her own parents' very broken marriage. And Charles certainly shouldn't have expected her to just accept the idea of an open marriage the way many members of the aristocracy had done for hundreds of years. But, forty years ago was a very different time when it came to attitudes and views about divorce and the royal family.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Forty years ago was a very different time when it came to attitudes for the heir's wife to be a virgin. Without that requirement Prince Charles would likely have made a different choice, either someone he expected have a chance at a real marriage with, or someone who knew the score and was happy with the perks. Someone who could not be taunted in any way by CPB.

 

[cygnus]

And her affairs were in retaliation. So it's not like they had an open marriage but it's that he never stopped seeing Camila and Diana decided to seek what she wasn't getting from him from other men rather than divorcing him (which I think she thought she couldn't do) or just sucking it up and accepting it.

Didn't he? He apparently did stop seeing Camilla once he married- he only went back to her after the marriage had broken down- around 1986. This is pretty much established. Diana took up with Manakee around this time too.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I remember reading somewhere that he was back in touch with CPB as soon as they were back from their wedding trip. That doesn't mean a physical affair at the moment, but his confidences were being send elsewhere.

 

[cygnus]

I remember reading somewhere that he was back in touch with CPB as soon as they were back from their wedding trip. That doesn't mean a physical affair at the moment, but his confidences were being send elsewhere.

All sorts of things can be read somewhere- but it's not necessarily the truth. Even when it is constantly repeated. The more reliable sources go with the 1986 date.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I thought it was from a newspaper or magazine that was considered reputable, at least at the time. With a lot behind a paywall, I doubt I could find it if I had any real interest in doing so.

 

[once_upon]

I think everyone read too many novels about the Charming Prince being smitten with the virgin young naive girl. Prince Charming would stay true to her until they died in each other's arms. And the Prince scorned the evil convincing other woman because his true love was young virgin.

Life is not like the trashy romance novel. I think both Charles and Diana had different goals and may have thought it would work out for the long term.

Once the heir and spare were produced and Charles fulfilled his duty to mama, he got bored with young naive girl.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Weren't some of Diana's affairs with married men? None of these people could claim the moral high ground.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm not sure how many people watching the interviews and introductions at the time thought he was smitten at all, but rather pressured into getting married already. The longer he waited, the bigger the age gap was going to get, as long as virgin was a job requirement. Although maybe if he waited until he was 50, it would no longer have been a job requirement.

I remember feeling queasy when she got his name backwards during the vows. It felt like more than nerves in front of a bazillion TV viewers. But I still watched it the second time through, just to hear Kiri Te Kanawa sing "Let the Bright Seraphim," which was the most important part of the wedding to me, although I was excited to see the dress reveal and the jewelry.

 

[canbelto]

It's so creepy that apparently Diana's uncle vouched for her sexual purity.

 

[cygnus]

It's so creepy that apparently Diana's uncle vouched for her sexual purity.

That was just weird. Not sure how much one's uncle would know of such things (her family was not especially close ).

 

[cygnus]

Weren't some of Diana's affairs with married men? None of these people could claim the moral high ground.

Yes, several. She was probably (half of course- he bears blame too!) responsible for at least one divorce- (Will Carling.) Another ended when he refused to leave his wife, and led to a campaign of harassing phone calls when he broke it off which were traced to Kensington palace (Oliver Hoare). Even Dodie was engaged to another woman when he took up with Diana, although she was single at that point, of course.

There is a lot to admire about Diana, but like all of us, she had her less admirable side too.

 

[airgelaal]

For me Diana was always an adult woman, and only recently did I realize how young she was when she got married. At 19, she got engaged, and at 20, she got married.
Almost all European heiresses are now at this age, Lady Louise is also 20, and none of them are preparing for the wedding. Being the heir's wife is not an easy job, and Diana was clearly not ready for it.

 

[overedge]

For me Diana was always an adult woman, and only recently did I realize how young she was when she got married. At 19, she got engaged, and at 20, she got married.
Almost all European heiresses are now at this age, Lady Louise is also 20, and none of them are preparing for the wedding. Being the heir's wife is not an easy job, and Diana was clearly not ready for it.

I'm not sure. I think she was ready for the fairy-tale marriage - if not with a real prince, then with some titled young man from her or her family's social circle - and that didn't happen. It was sort of the norm in that social class that men fooled around and women generally stayed at home and turned a blind eye to whatever their husbands were doing. I don't know if Diana, being relatively young, wasn't aware of that, or whether she knew about it and was determined that her marriage was going to be different.

 

[cygnus]

I'm not sure. I think she was ready for the fairy-tale marriage - if not with a real prince, then with some titled young man from her or her family's social circle - and that didn't happen. It was sort of the norm in that social class that men fooled around and women generally stayed at home and turned a blind eye to whatever their husbands were doing. I don't know if Diana, being relatively young, wasn't aware of that, or whether she knew about it and was determined that her marriage was going to be different.

I don't know about that. Diana's mother had an affair and left her father (who may have been having his own affairs). Fergie's mother did the same. The term "Bolter" for a married woman who left with another man was pretty common, and well known. But yes, she probably did think it would be different for her.