From Russia With Love (No 32): Spring to Summer 2019

[Finsta]

I’m not sure why you can’t accept others opinions and think trying to bring other skaters down with odd remarks will change opinion. You think she interpreted it better than anyone else ever has. Many disagree. She is talented hat working and nice girl. But nothing he said was fact. In reality I feel bad for Zagitova. She is better than what she was given, which I think was already said in other posts. Hope this season she has better programs.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I’m not sure why you can’t accept others opinions and think trying to bring other skaters down with odd remarks will change opinion. You think she interpreted it better than anyone else ever has. Many disagree. She is talented hat working and nice girl. But nothing he said was fact. In reality I feel bad for Zagitova. She is better than what she was given, which I think was already said in other posts. Hope this season she has better programs.

I don't see why you can't accept my opinion that Osmond, Kwan, Kostner are overscored on PCS and consider it "bringing them down", and yet the same opinion about Zagitova you consider "normal comments"?

The difference is, i love Kostner, Osmond's Piaf, and Kwan's "Carmen"... But when it come to "Zagitova and team" for many on engilish-speaking forums it is always "the glass is half-empty". So, as to "many disagree" - "many" is subjective... and i absolutely do not exclude that it is due to "jealousy of Eteri and her girls' success".

There is a rule - you don't judge a winner, especially someone who is winning time after time and is judged by different groups of people. You can.... but it makes people doubt the intentions..

 

[PRlady]

I’m one who thinks Daniil’s choreo is stuffed with meaningless unfinished movements, and I said so as far back as Lipnitskaya. But I also think Orser’s programs are often hokey and old-fashioned and Tom Z’s skaters are usually hopelessly packaged. I’m an equal-opportunity critic.

Skaters who are not innately amazing at interpretation - eg Miyahara and Brown - need help from the choreo. I’d love to see what Alina could do with a different sort of program - and that includes possibly Averbukh. She is certainly talented and charismatic, I would never deny that.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

I put Alina anywhere i want. And yet, i will not put ANY skater and compare him/her to a ballet dancer.

Alina, given it is an ice programme, did the elements and dance moves from that ballet quite well.
Someone put together few clips of Alina's Carmen and Maya's dancing... for an ice programme there are some great matches. @ 0:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttJZux1cam8

Comparing Alina Zagitova with Maya Plisetskaya is an insult to the greatest ballet dancer of all time. Plisetskaya brought spotless technique, unbelievable body lines, true passion, and incredible longevity to the table. You of course can compare Zagitova to anyone you want, but it won't sway anyone's opinion. I think this conversation is ridiculous. Alina is fine. But you are not gaining her any fans by your comments.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Comparing Alina Zagitova with Maya Plisetskaya is an insult to the greatest ballet dancer of all time. Plisetskaya brought spotless technique, unbelievable body lines, true passion, and incredible longevity to the table. You of course can compare Zagitova to anyone you want, but it won't sway anyone's opinion. I think this conversation is ridiculous. Alina is fine. But you are not gaining her any fans by your comments.

Which part of "i will not put ANY skater and compare him/her to a ballet dancer" did you not understand?

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Which part of "i will not put ANY skater and compare him/her to a ballet dancer" did you not understand?

Then why did you bring up Plisetskaya in a conversation about Zagitova's interpretation? As I said originally, copying choreography is not interpretation. Copying Plisetskaya's movements and facial expressions is not "interpretation" either.

It's ok to compare skaters with ballet dancers. When they are actually comparable. Oksana Bauil was quiet reminiscent of Galina Ulanova. The same gentleness and fragility, combines with determination. Zagitova has nothing in common with Plisetskaya. Nothing. You just throw a name out, and expect people to think you know something because you are Russian and supposedly know Russian ballet.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Then why did you bring up Plisetskaya in a conversation about Zagitova's interpretation? As I said originally, copying choreography is not interpretation. Copying Plisetskaya's movements and facial expressions is not "interpretation" either.

Read my original comment again: ""the original Carmen suite with Plesetskaya's choreography" as point of refs. Nothing about comparison of Zagitova to Plisetskaya.

Zagitova's "Carmen" choreo does incorporate several distinctive movements/elements from that choreo. Alina does them quite well (for an ice programme). It is not a comparison... and never intended to be.

It's ok to compare skaters with ballet dancers. When they are actually comparable. Oksana Bauil was quiet reminiscent of Galina Ulanova. The same gentleness and fragility, combines with determination.

a) Where were you when every other North American was yelling "Kerrigan was robbed, Soviet conspiracy, Bauil is not a ballerina"......
b) If anything, Bauil's "swan" was choreographed based on Anna Pavlova's video saved in the Soviet Film Archives, which has been recently remastered. Ulanova's "swan" was not out on Video back then and there was no "youtube"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou6rlB7n9to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SIhAVGDGPs

 

[BittyBug]

I’m one who thinks Daniil’s choreo is stuffed with meaningless unfinished movements, and I said so as far back as Lipnitskaya. ....I’d love to see what Alina could do with a different sort of program - and that includes possibly Averbukh.

I don't think Gleikhengauz ever choreographed for Lipnitskaya. Her earlier programs were Morozov and her later programs were Averbukh while she was with Tutberidze. Maybe you are confusing the two because Gleikhengauz's programs seem to follow some of the devices Averbukh frequently uses, especially the miming and obvious mid-program rest breaks.

 

[annie_mg]

I’m one who thinks Daniil’s choreo is stuffed with meaningless unfinished movements, and I said so as far back as Lipnitskaya. But I also think Orser’s programs are often hokey and old-fashioned and Tom Z’s skaters are usually hopelessly packaged. I’m an equal-opportunity critic.

Skaters who are not innately amazing at interpretation - eg Miyahara and Brown - need help from the choreo. I’d love to see what Alina could do with a different sort of program - and that includes possibly Averbukh. She is certainly talented and charismatic, I would never deny that.

Totally agree! I thought Medvedeva's choreography this year was horrible and very old-fashioned except for her initial short programme when it was still working for her. I'm not sure why we always get nailed for being 'jealous' when we critic Eteri's girls choreography. For me the business of it bothers me more than the emptiness of other programmes but I have absolutely no feelings of jealousy nor do I want to speak badly of a certain group of skaters.

 

[PRlady]

I don't think Gleikhengauz ever choreographed for Lipnitskaya. Her earlier programs were Morozov and her later programs were Averbukh while she was with Tutberidze. Maybe you are confusing the two because Gleikhengauz's programs seem to follow some of the devices Averbukh frequently uses, especially the miming and obvious mid-program rest breaks.

Well, then, it’s the coach who’s the instigator of this type of program. Nothing bothers me more than a leg lift here, an arm gesture there, with no reference to the music or a holistic performance.

Alina does land her jumps spot on the music which certainly provides a tada quality and isn’t easy to do.

 

[TAHbKA]

The unpopular opinion: I like most of the Gleikhengauz' programmes. Just as an example: the girls who left the group and skated other choreographer's stuff made less of an impression on me - Panenkova's last year programmes were crap (the lipstick smearing was stupid but memorable); Tsurskaya (my personal pain - she is one of my 3 favourite Russian ladies in the last 5 years) was painful to watch last year and not only because of the technique and am not quite sure what is Medvedeva skating, but I liked her Averbukh/Gleikhengauz programmes more.
Zagitova... It's like someone gathered the `best of figure skating' in one skater - the elegance, the beauty, the most used pieces of music, the good jumps (sans 2A), the great spins, good steps, decent gliding and it came out dead boring

 

[hanca]

I also liked Tarakanova’s programs more the year she skated in Tutberidze's group. Tarakanova’s programs this past season were not as good as the program she had with Tutberidze. Whoever done them for her at Tutberidze’s group, the programs were fitting well with her powerful and wild style of skating.

 

[rfisher]

Well, then, it’s the coach who’s the instigator of this type of program. Nothing bothers me more than a leg lift here, an arm gesture there, with no reference to the music or a holistic performance.

Alina does land her jumps spot on the music which certainly provides a tada quality and isn’t easy to do.

Ironic because you don't like Kostner who never had a gesture that isn't referenced. Which is my point that "interpretation" is totally subjective and is influenced by many things totally unrelated to what the skater is actually doing on the ice for any given skate.

 

[BittyBug]

The unpopular opinion: I like most of the Gleikhengauz' programmes.

Kostornaia's SP last season was exquisite, even if it followed Gleik's standard formula.

 

[mjb52]

I guess what I find frustrating on this board is why people who don't like the Russian style of choreography feel it necessary to harp on it constantly. It's a discussion board, so obviously it will come up, but it just feels like the same people are bringing it up all the time. I'm not traditionally a big fan of the American/Canadian style of choreography, but generally I just try to avoid posting about the NA teams and skaters rather than constantly knocking them down.

 

[Wyliefan]

If you remember, this all started when Alina's choreographer called her the best interpreter of Phantom and Carmen there's ever been. You say stuff like that, there will be pushback.

 

[rfisher]

Then email him and pushback.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Daniel Grassl gave an interview last week, in the Russian "sports-express".
He is training for a week at Alexei Mishin's camp, and planning to train with Tutberidze in August (they talked about it during Europeans), but have not set it up yet. Also talks about 4A and quint-jumps..
(google-translates well)
https://www.sport-express.ru/figure...ogo-figurnogo-kataniya-iz-shveycarii-1548305/

Elena Ilinykh and Polunin - "Rasputin"
This link has several videos of the ballet, mostly Polunin's dancing, but in the last few there is Elena (not her main dancing segments, but some).
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByPz_Go...ipbdaVuFB45aBw6KgEadZmrj-yXHtXOpsG5xLIDqcJKsY

 

[Tinami Amori]

If you remember, this all started when Alina's choreographer called her the best interpreter of Phantom and Carmen there's ever been. You say stuff like that, there will be pushback.

Bull!! he did not say say that.

He said that the team believed that "she has the ability to be the best at skating them, and that was his wish to see her skate to it".

As for Alina and her two programs, we started from the fact that she is able to skate these pieces better than everyone else who have previously skated to the Phantom of the Opera and Carmen. It was my desire, because I’ve never choreographed to this music.

 

[PRlady]

Ironic because you don't like Kostner who never had a gesture that isn't referenced. Which is my point that "interpretation" is totally subjective and is influenced by many things totally unrelated to what the skater is actually doing on the ice for any given skate.

Oh I respect Kostner. Some of her programs, like Bolero and the Debussy, are choreographed beautifully and she skated them well.

My problem with her is when judges hold her up despite deficient tech content, and the cheering section which treats her like the second coming.

 

[Spun Silver]

If you remember, this all started when Alina's choreographer called her the best interpreter of Phantom and Carmen there's ever been. You say stuff like that, there will be pushback.

He could have been echoing Chris of the BESP who in the vid that @Tinami Amori linked (comparing Alina's and Plisetskaya's Carmen's) said, "We've seen a few Carmens done, but I don't think we've seen any done better than that."

I don't think she's the greatest that could be, but considering her youth and the technical demands of our time, she did a damn great job IMHO, and I find the way people harp on her (not just Russian choreography) weirdly obsessive. ETA: It also kind of reminds me of the harsh reactions audiences often have to works that are later deemed obvious masterpieces (like Carmen itself). Why wouldn't her choreographer say that? He's called her his muse, she won everything, and he has bragging rights.

Thanks to Tinami for that vid -- I knew the program was intentionally modern and untraditional in style, but that ballet version didn't occur to me.

 

[LoopCombo]

If you remember, this all started when Alina's choreographer called her the best interpreter of Phantom and Carmen there's ever been. You say stuff like that, there will be pushback.

To be fair, he didn’t. He said that Alina being able to skate those programs better than anyone else was his goal when he made the programs. I’m not sure she skated either program so iconically that other skaters will avoid using Phantom or Carmen for 5 years as he suggested was his goal, but I do think it will be a good while before one of the top ladies skates to Don Quixote OR wears a tutu. Alina made that her own. So in my opinion Daniil did create iconic programs for Alina, but not this past season. However, I am struggling to see why stating what his goal was makes him deluded or arrogant, especially when he did achieve something close to that goal the previous season. People have goals, they don’t always pan out, but surely you have to know what you want, know what you intend, then chase it and try to accomplish it. I think Alina did her best with Phantom and Carmen, and Phantom was a beautiful program. Carmen was clearly a difficult program that scored points when skated cleanly, but there was something missing in it for me. Overall, I think Daniil has made some truly lovely programs for his skaters and also some that I find less memorable or appealing. I thought Trusova’s Vivaldi program with the quads the previous year was a fantastic vehicle for her. I loved both of Kostornaia and Scherbakova’s programs this year. Their group also collaborates with an amazing costumer, whose work really enhances the programs. I agree that Daniil doesn’t always hit the nail on the head, but nor do many other well known choreographers. As an example, I thought Jin Boyang’s Star Wars program was absolutely laughable (although it was sort of so bad it was good), I also thought Medvedeva’s Tango this past season was boring and lacking in transitions among other problems. These programs were both by great choreographers who do a lot of great programs but turned out a couple of duds. I have seen duds from just about everybody. Daniil is not definitively a poor choreographer as many people on this forum keep saying — not in my estimation. Many people like his work. I personally like the packed, difficult programs and the storytelling style. But Daniil does perhaps work on so many programs that some appear either derivative of his other work or even simply not as inspired. That’s my appraisal anyway. I think he didn’t really meet his goal with Alina’s warhorse programs, but I’d hardly expect him to admit that. That would crush and undermine Alina. I’ll only add that Daniil did actually say that they are now going in a different, non warhorse direction for Alina, and I think that is evidence enough that the team knows that Phantom and Carmen didn’t produce the wow-factor they expected, even though Alina did win Worlds with them.

 

[Wyliefan]

If I misunderstood what he said, I apologize for that. I thought from the various translations that he had said Alina interpreted that music better than anyone else had.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Polunin and Elena's performance (mostly Polunin's and other dancers of course) are getting great reviews from audience (audience who watched it for dancing, and not political correctness of the dancers, that is).
Good fotos of the ballet in action:
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401380/wall-118768737_77974

few reviews:
@yukao_ishi Thank you for your magical creation and support.
@lyubimov царь, просто царь! (you're a king, just simply a king)
@djordje_kalenic synochek
@johankobborg you were amazing in every moment
@ulyanasergeenko thank you for your beautiful soul and our beautiful costumes
@ottobubenicek it was a pleasure to dance in a such a beautiful space made by you! #Rasputin #Poluninink

---
Eteri's group training resumed at Novogorsk camp. Few girls and 2 boys have not yet arrived.
https://scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagra...?_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.cdninstagram.com#.jpg

Veronika and Alena Zhilina warming up:
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByQpgQtliU-/

Gleikh on his birthday, night out with boys at the Ice Bar. Dudakov, Gliekh, Rozanov.
https://i.imgur.com/x1ZqNpH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sRG6naj.jpg
---
Russian FS fans, on-line voting results:
Best SP of the season -
Alina Zagitova
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401143/wall-118768737_77885
Maxim Kovtun
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401142/wall-118768737_77885
Z/E and T/M tied @ 40%
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401144/wall-118768737_77885
Sin-Kats
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401145/wall-118768737_77885

---
Tarakanova is currently training kids at her home town Volgograd, then going to her club's summer camp in Sochi.
She'll make a great Russian coach! some tough notes in her voice...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWTit8AnexE

For Nastya Goubanova fans, she is on vacation in Turkey, soon to return and start training (that comment is from another source).
https://pp.userapi.com/c855728/v855728253/59031/-fLbAr00prU.jpg

Radionova conducting master-classes at Plushenko's rink.
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-34659612_456246821/wall-118768737_77954

Kovtun - vacationing in Cancun (i thought he was without a dime, broke... but good to see that is solved.. )
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401289/wall-118768737_77938

Panenkova - on vacation, no word on season's plans yet.
https://vk.com/sbornayasegodnyaizavtra?z=photo-118768737_456401221/wall-118768737_77919

 

[muffinplus]

If you remember, this all started when Alina's choreographer called her the best interpreter of Phantom and Carmen there's ever been. You say stuff like that, there will be pushback.

He never said that. I specifically posted that that's not the correct translation

He said the thought that Alina is capable of skating a better program to this music than others before her...as the reason for why he picked a warhorse.

 

[Tinami Amori]

He never said that. I specifically posted that that's not the correct translation.

it has already been noted. just for the record.
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ng-to-summer-2019.105365/page-48#post-5594204

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Then email him and pushback.

You don't like people discussing Russian training methods. You don't like people discussing Russian skating personalities' comments. I get it: you feel like truly relevant news get buried underneath the rubbish. But this IS an all-encompassing Russian figure skating thread and an open discussion board. What do you expect? I don't understand the attempts to shut people up - or control what sort of discussion is permitted. You don't like it? Ignore it. Who the heck are you to tell Wyliefan or anyone else what they are allowed to talk about??

 

[Spun Silver]

You don't like people discussing Russian training methods. You don't like people discussion Russian skating personalities' comments. I get it: you feel like truly relevant news get buried underneath the rubbish. But this IS an all-encompassing Russian figure skating thread on on open discussion board. What you expect? I don't understand the attempts to shut people up - or control what sort of discussion is permitted. You don't like it? Ignore it. Who the heck are you to tell Wyliefan or anyone else what they are allowed to talk about??

Aren't you reading an awful lot into that little post by @rfisher?

 

[rfisher]

You don't like people discussing Russian training methods. You don't like people discussion Russian skating personalities' comments. I get it: you feel like truly relevant news get buried underneath the rubbish. But this IS an all-encompassing Russian figure skating thread on on open discussion board. What you expect? I don't understand the attempts to shut people up - or control what sort of discussion is permitted. You don't like it? Ignore it. Who the heck are you to tell Wyliefan or anyone else what they are allowed to talk about??

Right. You've really nailed it. Consider me told.

 

[Bigbird]

Right. You've really nailed it. Consider me told.

If you can dish it.....as they say.

But just to be utterly shallow has Elena Ilinykh always been that gorgeous?

And wow, currently competing ice dance girls are really rather petite or small and thin. Colour me a little shooked