U.S. Ladies [#26]: Bell, Boots, and Camel

[Dobre]

I'm always surprised when people casually suggest athletes leave their current coaching teams. Alysa's coach, for example, is a woman who has done quite well by her, and seems to have a good relationship with the skater's family. Alysa is young, there are many factors to consider, Orser has his schedule quite full .... Starr has spoken of looking up to Derrick as a role model. Of course, the above are simply talking points, but I never "get" the idea we know enough to advise skaters to toss aside longtime coaches.

Not to mention the fact that most of the time coaching changes lead to athletes changing their technique and becoming less consistent for quite a while. It feels like there are about 5 coaches that are "popular" with fans on skating boards, and everyone who isn't with one of them is recommended to go there? Which would be A. impossible and B. lead to everyone at those rinks working with other coaches anyway, as the top name coach wouldn't have much time to spend with most of the athletes in the rink. (And often these recommendations are made with no regard for family ties; culture; language; citizenship issues; expenses--which might be used to maintain quality choreography instead, for example; or whether the athlete actually wants to live in _______ country. All of which help many athletes maintain balance and a healthy mental outlook toward the sport). A great coaching fit can make a huge difference for an athlete, of course; but when an athlete is successful where he or she is, I really like to see them maximize that opportunity to succeed.

 

[skatfan]

I'm always surprised when people casually suggest athletes leave their current coaching teams. Alysa's coach, for example, is a woman who has done quite well by her, and seems to have a good relationship with the skater's family. Alysa is young, there are many factors to consider, Orser has his schedule quite full .... Starr has spoken of looking up to Derrick as a role model. Of course, the above are simply talking points, but I never "get" the idea we know enough to advise skaters to toss aside longtime coaches.

With Alysa, the idea is particularly strange. She is one of five children to a single dad who has a law practice - i.e. not moving. There's no way there's $ to go off to a new training location, plus who sends their young teenager alone? It sounds like Laura Lipetsky is very open to having other coaches help out since Alysa is her first skater at this level - Frank Carroll is consulting I believe. I think it's going to be more like a Linda Leaver situation.

 

[natsulian]

After deliberating/reading on the topic, I can concur that Alysa should stay with Laura. Not only does the family situation bode to be troublesome should a coaching change occur, Laura, Alysa, and the family have really connected and the relationship seems to be paying off in dividends.

As for Starr, the coaching situation has not been working out and it could be the consequence of a multitude of reasons. However, if an athlete of Starr's level sees that something is no longer clicking as it should, to reach the goals that she has set for herself, she needs to reexamine where she is and what she wants to do. How much further can she improve with this coach? Will this coach give her the necessary tools to obtain her goals? Starr is young and has time to take ownership of her skating, so I'm hopeful that she'll make the decision SHE thinks is right for HER.

Of course, coaching changes always come with pros and cons. As we saw with some of the other ladies, coaching changes can be disastrous. However, like Mariah, they can pay off really well. We'll see what the future holds for the budding US ladies.

 

[WillyElliot]

As for Starr, the coaching situation has not been working out and it could be the consequence of a multitude of reasons. However, if an athlete of Starr's level sees that something is no longer clicking as it should, to reach the goals that she has set for herself, she needs to reexamine where she is and what she wants to do. How much further can she improve with this coach? Will this coach give her the necessary tools to obtain her goals? Starr is young and has time to take ownership of her skating, so I'm hopeful that she'll make the decision SHE thinks is right for HER.

I really hope that Starr seriously considers a coaching change. I liked Delmore's skating, but he had significant technical flaws that I see now in Starr (wonky axel technique, flutz, just general movement/posture issues, etc). Isn't she 18 now? The sport will pass her by if it hasn't already, if she doesn't fix these issues.

As for Alysa, she's only 13, she's got a lot of talent, and she is one of five kids in a family of 6. (Or is it 7? One article refers to her father's 'partner', then in another article the father was saying how hard it is being a single father and managing Alysa's career with four other kids.) IMHO Alysa should stay put with what is working for her and her family. Plus she is going around the world for additional coaching assistance, so I think Laura is just fine as her primary coach.

 

[Tinami Amori]

IMHO Alysa should stay put with what is working for her and her family. Plus she is going around the world for additional coaching assistance, so I think Laura is just fine as her primary coach.

I agree. Why should any one change coaches if everything is working and progressing. If the trend stops, then of course consider a coaching change.

 

[skatfan]

After deliberating/reading on the topic, I can concur that Alysa should stay with Laura. Not only does the family situation bode to be troublesome should a coaching change occur, Laura, Alysa, and the family have really connected and the relationship seems to be paying off in dividends.

You can concur? I'm sure the family is so relieved to hear this.

As for Starr, the coaching situation has not been working out and it could be the consequence of a multitude of reasons. However, if an athlete of Starr's level sees that something is no longer clicking as it should, to reach the goals that she has set for herself, she needs to reexamine where she is and what she wants to do. How much further can she improve with this coach? Will this coach give her the necessary tools to obtain her goals? Starr is young and has time to take ownership of her skating, so I'm hopeful that she'll make the decision SHE thinks is right for HER.

Since she lives in SoCal, I was kinda hoping that Delmore and co would go to the new Irvine skating center, where there are a bunch of top-flight coaches - Todd Eldredge could definitely help her jumping and basic skating, but I haven't seen Delmore's name there. I'm not sure what the family finances are or how this could be achieved.

 

[natsulian]

You can concur? I'm sure the family is so relieved to hear this.



Since she lives in SoCal, I was kinda hoping that Delmore and co would go to the new Irvine skating center, where there are a bunch of top-flight coaches - Todd Eldredge could definitely help her jumping and basic skating, but I haven't seen Delmore's name there. I'm not sure what the family finances are or how this could be achieved.

Yes, I concur as in I agree. Alysa’s coaching situation seems to be a great fit for her at the moment. Hopefully things continue to trend well. She’s a budding star, and it would be awesome to see her go far internationally with her childhood coach. That’s rare nowadays (not to say it’s always inherently good or bad).

 

[Frida80]

You can concur? I'm sure the family is so relieved to hear this.



Since she lives in SoCal, I was kinda hoping that Delmore and co would go to the new Irvine skating center, where there are a bunch of top-flight coaches - Todd Eldredge could definitely help her jumping and basic skating, but I haven't seen Delmore's name there. I'm not sure what the family finances are or how this could be achieved.

I think Alyss should stay in her current coaching area but at least go to a jump specialist to help improve her technique. She still prerotates some of her jumps. While that's still not penalized, it's only a matter of time before the start cracking down on it like under rotations.

As for Starr, she's been with Derrick since she was little, so it will be a hard for her to move on from him.

Especially since 90% of her problems this year had more to do with poor planning rather than her SS and technique. So many problems that experienced coaches would've avoided. Her FS was to fast and complicated for a FS program. It should've been a exhibition or a SP where she has less jumps to worry about. The 3A never should've been introduced unless she was hitting then 90% of the time in practice. That took away too much focus on other jumps and learning her programs properly. Everytime Starr had a problem with her programs, they'd switch the layout. It takes two to four months to learn a program. If you constantly change the jumps, you'll become more inconsistent. Only Nathan can manage constant changes in his layout. They decided midseason to focus on things like speed, jumps, and choreography. Changing these mid season, will mess with the program consistency. By that time you've gotten a rhythm to when your jumps are and it will interfere with the muscle memory.

On top of all that mess, Starr wouldn't be able to improve on SS or her technique because she was constantly struggling with the constant changes to her programs. Not to mention all thre pressure of being on the GP for the first time. If she simply repeated her programs from last season from the start, the season would've gone a lot better.

Because her problems were of poor planning rather than her SS, naturally she doesn't have a reason to leave Derrick yet. If she has skated well but still fell short, she would've realized she needed a new coach. Oh well.

Maybe constantly scoring 64 with a clean SP will galvanize her into improve her edges and speed next year as well as get her to see new jump coach. Time will tell.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Not to mention the fact that most of the time coaching changes lead to athletes changing their technique and becoming less consistent for quite a while. It feels like there are about 5 coaches that are "popular" with fans on skating boards, and everyone who isn't with one of them is recommended to go there? Which would be A. impossible and B. lead to everyone at those rinks working with other coaches anyway, as the top name coach wouldn't have much time to spend with most of the athletes in the rink. (And often these recommendations are made with no regard for family ties; culture; language; citizenship issues; expenses--which might be used to maintain quality choreography instead, for example; or whether the athlete actually wants to live in _______ country. All of which help many athletes maintain balance and a healthy mental outlook toward the sport). A great coaching fit can make a huge difference for an athlete, of course; but when an athlete is successful where he or she is, I really like to see them maximize that opportunity to succeed.

Big name coaches certainly carry a lot of political punch. But, I'm sure they command top level coaching fees along with their expertise as well.

It always staggered me how back in the day, the likes of Bobek could move from coach to coach to coach. Didn't her mom have a lot of issues finding enough money for Nicole's training when she was coming up through the ranks?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think Alyss should stay in her current coaching area but at least go to a jump specialist to help improve her technique. She still prerotates some of her jumps. While that's still not penalized, it's only a matter of time before the start cracking down on it like under rotations.

As for Starr, she's been with Derrick since she was little, so it will be a hard for her to move on from him.

Especially since 90% of her problems this year had more to do with poor planning rather than her SS and technique. So many problems that experienced coaches would've avoided. Her FS was to fast and complicated for a FS program. It should've been a exhibition or a SP where she has less jumps to worry about. The 3A never should've been introduced unless she was hitting then 90% of the time in practice. That took away too much focus on other jumps and learning her programs properly. Everytime Starr had a problem with her programs, they'd switch the layout. It takes two to four months to learn a program. If you constantly change the jumps, you'll become more inconsistent. Only Nathan can manage constant changes in his layout. They decided midseason to focus on things like speed, jumps, and choreography. Changing these mid season, will mess with the program consistency. By that time you've gotten a rhythm to when your jumps are and it will interfere with the muscle memory.

On top of all that mess, Starr wouldn't be able to improve on SS or her technique because she was constantly struggling with the constant changes to her programs. Not to mention all thre pressure of being on the GP for the first time. If she simply repeated her programs from last season from the start, the season would've gone a lot better.

Because her problems were of poor planning rather than her SS, naturally she doesn't have a reason to leave Derrick yet. If she has skated well but still fell short, she would've realized she needed a new coach. Oh well.

Maybe constantly scoring 64 with a clean SP will galvanize her into improve her edges and speed next year as well as get her to see new jump coach. Time will tell.

I find it fascinating how IJS reinforces that a skater should stick to their planned content, to maximise the athlete's point value. It's interesting looking a planned program content sheets from competition, and, when a skater misses something, that they have the ability to think on their feet. The very thought of making changes mid - program to a routine that has been perfected through months of repetition, makes me freak out.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Yes, I concur as in I agree. Alysa’s coaching situation seems to be a great fit for her at the moment. Hopefully things continue to trend well. She’s a budding star, and it would be awesome to see her go far internationally with her childhood coach. That’s rare nowadays (not to say it’s always inherently good or bad).

Irina Slutskaya stayed with one coach (Gromova) during her whole career, and it worked for her. Kristi Yamaguchi also, with Christy Ness. Both Ness and Gromova are not "huge name" coaches, except for their two pupils. In some cases a change is not needed.

 

[Frida80]

I find it fascinating how IJS reinforces that a skater should stick to their planned content, to maximise the athlete's point value. It's interesting looking a planned program content sheets from competition, and, when a skater misses something, that they have the ability to think on their feet. The very thought of making changes mid - program to a routine that has been perfected through months of repetition, makes me freak out.

If you get the timing wrong you lose your bonus. Everything has to be just right. The number of spins. The edges on the lutz and flip. The rotations. I've even noticed that most skaters have a specific manner of entering jumps, just so they can trigger their muscle memory. But those are the rules now. When Evgenia changed her layout for the first time, her consistency went with it. It's easier for a skater to master a program if nothing changes but the location.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If you get the timing wrong you lose your bonus. Everything has to be just right. The number of spins. The edges on the lutz and flip. The rotations. I've even noticed that most skaters have a specific manner of entering jumps, just so they can trigger their muscle memory. But those are the rules now. When Eugenia changed her layout for the first time, her consistency went with it. It's easier for a skater to master a program if nothing changes but the location.

That reminds me of how Katarina Witt would perform what was essentially the same short program for eight years in a row from 1981 - 1988 (with all of the required elements in the same order and the same location on the ice).

 

[Dobre]

I always remember how when IJS first came out, the U.S. commentators would say, "Now you have to have a calculator in your brain."

And now the top two U.S. guys are 1. enrolled in Yale and 2. a kid who took pre-calc & and programming in the 7th grade & is the son of two computer scientists.

 

[skatfan]

I think Alyss should stay in her current coaching area but at least go to a jump specialist to help improve her technique. She still prerotates some of her jumps. While that's still not penalized, it's only a matter of time before the start cracking down on it like under rotations.

As for Starr, she's been with Derrick since she was little, so it will be a hard for her to move on from him.

Especially since 90% of her problems this year had more to do with poor planning rather than her SS and technique. So many problems that experienced coaches would've avoided. Her FS was to fast and complicated for a FS program. It should've been a exhibition or a SP where she has less jumps to worry about. The 3A never should've been introduced unless she was hitting then 90% of the time in practice. That took away too much focus on other jumps and learning her programs properly. ...On top of all that mess, Starr wouldn't be able to improve on SS or her technique because she was constantly struggling with the constant changes to her programs. Not to mention all thre pressure of being on the GP for the first time. If she simply repeated her programs from last season from the start, the season would've gone a lot better.

Because her problems were of poor planning rather than her SS, naturally she doesn't have a reason to leave Derrick yet. If she has skated well but still fell short, she would've realized she needed a new coach. Oh well.l.

I guess I'm a little confused because it sounds like her coach planned things poorly - he choreographs her programs, right? To me, if your coach is making bad calls on your choreography and jumps, well, maybe it is time to get more opinions on how to progress.

I'm not thinking she has to leave Derrick, but a day or two a week down in Irvine with other top skaters might be really helpful.
Her skating skills are really behind most of the top ladies in the US, so I really hope there's someone she can work with.

 

[Coco]

Sometimes skating skills can be a function of the how many other top skaters you share ice with, perhaps? Is she the fastest at her rink, at least in her sessions?

 

[WillyElliot]

That reminds me of how Katarina Witt would perform what was essentially the same short program for eight years in a row from 1981 - 1988 (with all of the required elements in the same order and the same location on the ice).

Michelle Kwan was notorious for that, too. Especially in her later years. She didn't even have much choreography so you could watch Tosca with the sound off and you'd think it was her Bolero.

 

[VGThuy]

I thinks Aranjuez and Tosca were the same skeleton. As for Bolero the original two versions were quite different. I don’t remember the Nationals and Worlds version too much which indicates how I feel about those programs. Bolero was never the same every time she performed it.

 

[Vagabond]

Bolero was never the same every time she performed it.

Niether was I.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Michelle Kwan was notorious for that, too. Especially in her later years. She didn't even have much choreography so you could watch Tosca with the sound off and you'd think it was her Bolero.

Still far superior than anything ladies are doing nowadays.

-BB

 

[all_empty]

I thinks Aranjuez and Tosca were the same skeleton. As for Bolero the original two versions were quite different. I don’t remember the Nationals and Worlds version too much which indicates how I feel about those programs. Bolero was never the same every time she performed it.

I always LOL'd when they said "Aranjuez" was choreographed by "Michelle and friends," when I believe it was a Morozov special. "Tosca" was definitely in the same vein -- almost identical jump layout. You can't blame Michelle though -- at this point in her career she was dealing with injury, things that all young adults go through, etc. She had already begun to recycle or reuse programs ("The Feeling Begins," Rach), etc.

"Bolero" definitely went through many different versions, but I felt the Christopher Dean original (unsurprising) was the most complete.

I think it's sometimes easier when your choreographer is your coach. Sarah Hughes was making changes to her free skates ("Daphne & Chloe," "La Bayadere") quite a bit. Her sister Emily was constantly changing the layouts to her programs. Some skaters are more adaptable, others aren't.

 

[Frida80]

Sometimes skating skills can be a function of the how many other top skaters you share ice with, perhaps? Is she the fastest at her rink, at least in her sessions?

I don't think she has any elite skaters in her training groups. Just junior skaters. She probably needs to train with higher level skaters so she can have a more constant example of how fast she needs to be and how her edges she be.

 

[Frida80]

I guess I'm a little confused because it sounds like her coach planned things poorly - he choreographs her programs, right? To me, if your coach is making bad calls on your choreography and jumps, well, maybe it is time to get more opinions on how to progress.

I'm not thinking she has to leave Derrick, but a day or two a week down in Irvine with other top skaters might be really helpful.
Her skating skills are really behind most of the top ladies in the US, so I really hope there's someone she can work with.

...

I'm reluctant to say anyone should move. But I feel like Derrick has too much control over Starr. Both her coach and choreographer, doesn't leave a lot of autonomy for her. I think they just let him take the wheel and that's what's lead to the problems she's having.


She probably blames herself more than she blames him. She's the one that head cases at SA and Nationals. It can be really hard to see that your coach is holding you back. Look how long it took for Jason to leave Kori.

She like all skaters has other coaches to fill in the gaps. Someone for skating skills, someone for spins, etc. what she needs is a leader that takes on her weaknesses immediately, instead of someone that would be the equivalent of a outside tutor how gives tips but the "parent" ignores, in this case Derrick.

 

[BittyBug]

Bolero was never the same every time she performed it.

I think her injury prevented her from executing the original choreography, so she kept modifying it trying to find a way to make it work, but in the end it wasn't the program but her hip that was the problem.

 

[VGThuy]

I think her injury prevented her from executing the original choreography, so she kept modifying it trying to find a way to make it work, but in the end it wasn't the program but her hip that was the problem.

That could have been it too. I do think the version she had in December was a lot more choreographically dense than the one she debuted in October. I do remember after Worlds 2005, Kwan, I guess feeling somewhat better and in a rush to get into Olympic shape, was reported to be doing six triple routines at Champions on Ice. Then she exacerbated her injury and we saw how her 2005-06 season panned out.

 

[Frida80]

This Michelle injury talk is bumming me out. Can we talk about Ting instead? Any news about her coaching situation? She needs to get settled now long before the season starts.

 

[Eeyora1]

That could have been it too. I do think the version she had in December was a lot more choreographically dense than the one she debuted in October. I do remember after Worlds 2005, Kwan, I guess feeling somewhat better and in a rush to get into Olympic shape, was reported to be doing six triple routines at Champions on Ice. Then she exacerbated her injury and we saw how her 2005-06 season panned out.

Yes and up to Spring Cheesefest she performed Bolero as her Champions on Ice routine. It actually made a good exhibition program. and At the time it was really cool seeing six triples in an exhibition.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Irina Slutskaya stayed with one coach (Gromova) during her whole career, and it worked for her. Kristi Yamaguchi also, with Christy Ness. Both Ness and Gromova are not "huge name" coaches, except for their two pupils. In some cases a change is not needed.

And also Ms Sarah Hughes, Olympia Champion, darlings.

hmmm whatever happened to Robin?

 

[barbarafan]

I think Alyss should stay in her current coaching area but at least go to a jump specialist to help improve her technique. She still prerotates some of her jumps. While that's still not penalized, it's only a matter of time before the start cracking down on it like under rotations.

As for Starr, she's been with Derrick since she was little, so it will be a hard for her to move on from him.

Especially since 90% of her problems this year had more to do with poor planning rather than her SS and technique. So many problems that experienced coaches would've avoided. Her FS was to fast and complicated for a FS program. It should've been a exhibition or a SP where she has less jumps to worry about. The 3A never should've been introduced unless she was hitting then 90% of the time in practice. That took away too much focus on other jumps and learning her programs properly. Everytime Starr had a problem with her programs, they'd switch the layout. It takes two to four months to learn a program. If you constantly change the jumps, you'll become more inconsistent. Only Nathan can manage constant changes in his layout. They decided midseason to focus on things like speed, jumps, and choreography. Changing these mid season, will mess with the program consistency. By that time you've gotten a rhythm to when your jumps are and it will interfere with the muscle memory.

On top of all that mess, Starr wouldn't be able to improve on SS or her technique because she was constantly struggling with the constant changes to her programs. Not to mention all thre pressure of being on the GP for the first time. If she simply repeated her programs from last season from the start, the season would've gone a lot better.

Because her problems were of poor planning rather than her SS, naturally she doesn't have a reason to leave Derrick yet. If she has skated well but still fell short, she would've realized she needed a new coach. Oh well.

Maybe constantly scoring 64 with a clean SP will galvanize her into improve her edges and speed next year as well as get her to see new jump coach. Time will tell.

Aylsa Liu is now at TCC. Has she gone for some specialist jump training?...new skates?.. a visit? some choreo? TCC helps out with all these things..re: wilson skates often sends skaters to try out skates on their rink. Or some choreographers visit there . Brian is always happy to work hand in hand with a current coach to tweak a bit on students are close to success on the more difficult jumps. This is the off season and lots of skaters are on their break so TCC should not be as busy. Brian is in Korea finishing off a show. I guess we will know soon enough. I agree a 13yr old from a big family would find changing everything a bit (lot)too much.

 

[Yazmeen]

And also Ms Sarah Hughes, Olympia Champion, darlings.

hmmm whatever happened to Robin?

Didn’t Robin end up in some trouble for attempted student poaching?