Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

Are Virtue & Moir now the best dance team ever

  • yes

    Votes: 148 53.6%

  • no

    Votes: 98 35.5%

  • hard to say, maybe

    Votes: 30 10.9%
  • Total voters
    276
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Excidra

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,608
Ohyes said:
I will just leave this here:
  • The most decorated figure skaters in Olympic history[6]
  • The fourth most decorated Canadian Olympians ever[84]
  • The first and only team to take ice dance gold in their Olympic debut[85]
  • The first and only team to take ice dance gold at the Olympics before they won Worlds[85]
  • The youngest team to ever take ice dance gold at the Olympics[85]
  • The first and only ice dance team to ever win Olympic gold on home ice[85]
  • The first ice dance team from North America to take ice dance Olympic gold, breaking Europe's 34-year streak[24]
  • The first former junior world champions to win Olympic gold in ice dance
  • The first figure skaters in 38 years to win three Olympic golds
  • The second ice dance team to win three Olympic medals in ice dance
  • The second ice dance team to win two individual Olympic gold medals and the first one to do it in nonconsecutive Olympics
  • The first duo to carry the Canadian flag at an Olympic opening ceremony[86]
Record Scores:
In general:
List of world record scores set by Virtue/Moir[edit]
Combined total records[89] Date Score Event 30 April 2011181.792011 World Championships7 December 2013190.002013–14 Grand Prix Final27 November 2016195.842016 NHK Trophy10 December 2016197.222016–17 Grand Prix Final1 April 2017198.622017 World Championships28 October 2017199.862017 Skate Canada International20 February 2018206.072018 Winter OlympicsShort dance records[90] Date Score Event 17 February 201169.402011 Four Continents Championships29 April 201174.292011 World Championships6 December 201377.592013–14 Grand Prix Final26 November 201679.472016 NHK Trophy9 December 201680.502016–17 Grand Prix Final31 March 201782.432017 World Championships27 October 201782.682017 Skate Canada International19 February 201883.672018 Winter OlympicsFree dance records[91] Date Score Event 30 April 2011107.502011 World Championships11 December 2011112.332011–12 Grand Prix Final17 February 2014114.662014 Winter OlympicsHistoric records[4] 25 March 201070.272010 World Championships (original dance)

- The global and audience impact of Moulin Rouge that only Bolero Rivals
- The junior ice dancers who look up to them more than any other team (H/B, I/K, C/P)
- Their unmatched versatility, Chemistry, and Athleticism
- bonus: Being Yuna Kims fav ice dancers and having Yuzu fanboy over Tessa (pics and quotes if you don't believe me)
- Being known in your own country as icons
- Being known in general in your own country
- Being the highlight alongside yuzuru hanyu of the Pyeongchang games.

But you know according to some people in this thread having the most seasons best scores and GPF golds are the only criterias for the GOAT title, Dang, sorry V/M I guess that would make D/W and P/C the GOAT which is totally accurate. *eye roll*
Click to expand...

You can't dispute these receipts. They have the GOAT title whether the haters like to admit it or not.
 
Ohyes

Ohyes

Well-Known Member
Messages
311
You honestly
Icetigger said:
Pretty much all the above just centres around the fact they are Canadian (agreed) and they are they are the most successful Olympic ice dance medallists (agreed). A lot of the other "achievements" are irrelevant to any intelligent discussion of G.O.A.T.- "The longest-standing ice dance team in Canadian history" for example.

Anyway, well done for copying all of that from wikipedia.

Declaring G.O.A.T is a comparative statement: you can't just present facts regarding V/M: you have to present facts across the board regarding other skaters and also give timeframes and competitive contexts. Otherwise, it's just myopic fanaticism.

Maybe you should look at some other sources beyond the one team you are fanatical about's wikipedia page.

Also, don't misrepresent what other people have said: it makes you look bad.
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Well if i didn't copy paste it and wrote it out it would take me quite a while to finish considering everything they have accomplished. :) I have seen your post's on here and GS downplaying everything V/M do and fail to realize even their impact on the sport so talking to you would be like talking to a brick wall.
 
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Ohyes

Ohyes

Well-Known Member
Messages
311
Okay, @Icetigger and to everyone else in here doubting their GOAT status all here are the non-national accomplishments:

- The global and audience impact of Moulin Rouge that only Bolero Rivals
- The junior ice dancers who look up to them more than any other team (H/B, I/K, C/P)
- Their unmatched versatility, Chemistry, and Athleticism
- bonus: Being Yuna Kims fav ice dancers and having Yuzu fanboy over Tessa (pics and quotes if you don't believe me)

the same thing but took out national accomplishments which were according to some people the "majority" of their accomplishments loool.
 
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Ohyes

Ohyes

Well-Known Member
Messages
311
Funny how everywhere else people accept them as GOAT and only here people downplay them. I expected some of these comments tho coming from a site who called Tessa a stripper, Said they were happy they never had to see V/M skate again, Hating on Scott for being happy they won in PC, Constantly bring up one thing scott said 4 years ago that was "poor sportsmanship" when all he said he felt that they weren't being treated fairly by their coach. Calling Scott a douchebag. Yet ignore all the problematic things other teams do because they aren't V/M.
 
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Icetigger

Well-Known Member
Messages
277
Ohyes said:
You honestly

Well if i didn't copy paste it and wrote it out it would take me quite a while to finish considering everything they have accomplished. :) I have seen your post's on here and GS downplaying everything V/M do and fail to realize even their impact on the sport so talking to you would be like talking to a brick wall.
Click to expand...

The unfortunate thing is that some of things that you have copied and pasted actually make a case for them not being G.O.A.T.

In particular
  • Current record holders for the highest technical score in a short dance with 44.53 established at 2018 Winter Olympics[87]
Which outlines the number of World records they DIDN'T hold by the end of a season they competed in- i.e. PCS in Short and Free, overall in the short and free, TES in the free, and the combined.

Also,
When, if one makes a deeper analysis of PCS over the time of their competition, it actually comes out again in favour other teams.Both D/W and P/C were getting better PCS marks for sure by the time their rivalries reached their conclusions.

Also, the World records history comes out in favour of DW, all round, when they competed against each other, and in terms of P/C in the free, V/M in the short, and about equal over the two years where they competed against each other in the combined.


With regard to "
  • The only ice dance team to win world championship titles and Olympic golds under both the old compulsory & original dance system and the new short/rhythm dance system
How exactly are ice dancers that competed at a different time supposed to have done that. I certainly wouldn't accept anyone saying that V/M shouldn't be considered for G.O.A.T because they never won the OSP. It just doesn't make a case for them relative to other ice dancers.

With regard to

"Their unmatched versatility, Chemistry, and Athleticism"

I would agree on athleticism, and I would also add difficulty in many respects. Versatility I think they were matched by Torvill and Dean. Chemistry I just don't see. I notice you don't mention artistry. I would also say that they in many ways exemplify the ballroom derived style of ice dance.

Regarding the opinions of others that favour them or like V/M (and H/B are NOT a junior team; they are about the same average age as P/C) I think an equally large number of people/experts would make the case for T/D and other skaters.

So what we have now that national records have removed, and other facts that actually make a case against V/M as G.O.A.T have been removed, is the following -

They won two Olympic individual gold and one silver (and related subsidiary facts to do with age, historical competitive record both personal and national, and geographical fact) (one also has to take in to account time of competition, and the fact there was no pressure to go professional as there was for earlier teams; and also the some teams competed in a non-olympic era)
They won every major competition at both a senior and junior level at least once.
They were dominant in approximately two seasons- 2017 and 2010.
They were dominant in the short dance in the 2017 season.
They have unmatched athleticism and difficulty, the highest tier of versatility, and the apotheosis of a ballroom derived style of ice dance.

I think that's a completely fair appraisal; and pretty much in line with what I was already saying, in terms of a positive case for V/M as G.O.A.Ts.

But anyway, G.O.A.T arguments aside, I am glad they have brought so much joy to so many people with their skating. They remind me of a TV program I never watch but I always think of how my Grandmother would have enjoyed it if she was still alive, and I am glad that it is on, because I don't think everything has to be for me or to my tastes.
Unfortunately though, the G.O.A.T argument for V/M is an argument that says that all other teams are at best second best, so I don't think when it is brought up anyone can really complain when people actually go in to an in depth analysis of whether the case can really be made, because it is not just a statement about one team, it's also a statement about all other teams.

Therefore if you or anyone wants to complain about the negativity being brought down on V/M by anyone including myself whilst also proclaiming they are the G.O.A.Ts, just remember: you invited the negativity in when it was not enough for you just to celebrate your team, but also had to declare every other team inferior to them.
 
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Japanfan

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,542
Rossig said:
The fact that T&D revolutionised the ice dance and they had the biggest impact on this discipline of sport or that they were responsible for their own choreography don't count. Because why would ice dance fans care about such insignificant things?
Click to expand...

starrynight said:
Torvill and Dean came at the very beginning of ice dance's eligibility as an Olympic sport and had a phenomenal impact.
Click to expand...

chantilly said:
Torvill and Dean also did not compete under IJS.
They had way more freedom in construction of their dances and therefore had more time to choreograph.
It’s simply not fair to compare the two eras side by side.
Click to expand...

The above points are very important. T/D and V/M skated in different eras. T/D were trailblazers and skated in era where transforming the sport was desirable and possible - just as Toller Cranston did.

I don't know that such a transformation is possible anytime soon under IJS, because it restricts skaters in a way they weren't restricted before - especially in ice dance.

If any transformation is coming, I see it in the ladies field, with ladies becoming more athletic and attempting the 3A and quad.

In truth, transformations are the exception to the rule. We really have relatively few of them in all the years that FS has existed as a sport.

But, the sport does evolve.

I enjoy skaters from all eras, under both IJS and 6.0.

IMO creativity will shine through despite attempts to box it in to a system. Granted, it doesn't always happen - but not all skaters are particularly creative (just have the technical skills). But where there is creativity, it will find a find a way to express itself. It is an integral part of the human spirit.
 
E

Excidra

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,608
Ohyes said:
Okay, @Icetigger and to everyone else in here doubting their GOAT status all here are the non-national accomplishments:

- The global and audience impact of Moulin Rouge that only Bolero Rivals
- The junior ice dancers who look up to them more than any other team (H/B, I/K, C/P)
- Their unmatched versatility, Chemistry, and Athleticism
- bonus: Being Yuna Kims fav ice dancers and having Yuzu fanboy over Tessa (pics and quotes if you don't believe me)

the same thing but took out national accomplishments which were according to some people the "majority" of their accomplishments loool.
Click to expand...

And there you have it. Nothing else to see here folks.
 
Ohyes

Ohyes

Well-Known Member
Messages
311
I would love to revive this thread and would love to inform everyone in here that they are the only ice dance team to win a mega grand slam winning junior worlds, junior GPF, 4cc, Worlds, GPF, and the Olympics.
 
savchenkoboss

savchenkoboss

Banned Member
Messages
471
GOAT is subjective but I would probably say no.

Achievements wise they are great but they don't really have the record for anything. They have 2 Olympic Golds, but Gritschuk & Platov have them consecutively (I don't credit team medals the same way). They have less world titles than a whole bunch of teams, even with a much longer career. They only won the grand prix final once which is a big mark against them historically as that is a major event. Weaver & Poje actually have more grand prix final titles than them, LOL!

And they were far from the most dominant. Even having a long losing streak to Davis & White, who are a great team themselves of course but aren't even brought up as a GOAT contender, smack in the middle of their primes. They did win the majority of their head to heads with Papadakis & Cizeron, but lost the majority of the free dances, winning most of their encounters due to odd short dance issues P&C were having. And that was V&M at their all time peak, while P&C probably have yet to reach theirs.

Most of all as all of Gritschuk & Platov, Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Pakhamova & Gorshkov are relatively close in achievements I look at intangible impact. And in that I would say G&P are clearly last and V&M arguably 2nd last of those 5 teams. Torvill & Dean are by far #1 here, and that makes them the GOAT if I had to pick one. There is no program V&M ever did which will be as talked about as atleast 3 of T&D's- Bolero, Mack and Mabel, and Barnum. T&D in their primes were also unbeatable, V&M in their primes were not unbeatable. T&D's Olympic loss in 94 at an old age where V&M probably wouldn't even be medal contending anymore if they tried to compete that old (it is around the age V&M would be in 2022 and I don't think V&M will even medal at the 2022 Games, let alone be contending for gold, in the unlikely event should they return), was a much bigger controversy than any of V&M's losses to D&W for instance. The press were literally so irate they had to have a press conference just to explain the scoring.
 
R

Rossig

Well-Known Member
Messages
186
There is no program V&M ever did which will be as talked about as atleast 3 of T&D's- Bolero, Mack and Mabel, and Barnum.
Click to expand...

And after so many years people still remember those programs and talk about them (of course mainly Bolero). Yet V&M fans are so proud that they stlll watch Moulin Rouge. Let's wait 30-40 years and see how many of them will still watch it and talk about it.
 
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A

angi

Well-Known Member
Messages
678
Rossig said:
And after so many years people still remember those programs and talk about them (of course mainly Bolero). Yet V&M fans are so proud that they stlll watch Moulin Rouge. Let's wait 30-40 years and see how many of them will still watch it and talk about it.
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People still talk about Mahler and it is still one of the most memorable Olympic programs in recent years. I have no doubt both Moulin Rouge and Mahler will be remembered for a long time and will be brought up in conversations and articles. I'm also certain that in 10-20 years V/M will still be remembered and talked about.

savchenkoboss said:
Most of all as all of Gritschuk & Platov, Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Pakhamova & Gorshkov are relatively close in achievements I look at intangible impact. And in that I would say G&P are clearly last and V&M arguably 2nd last of those 5 teams. Torvill & Dean are by far #1 here, and that makes them the GOAT if I had to pick one. There is no program V&M ever did which will be as talked about as atleast 3 of T&D's- Bolero, Mack and Mabel, and Barnum. T&D in their primes were also unbeatable, V&M in their primes were not unbeatable. T&D's Olympic loss in 94 at an old age where V&M probably wouldn't even be medal contending anymore if they tried to compete that old (it is around the age V&M would be in 2022 and I don't think V&M will even medal at the 2022 Games, let alone be contending for gold, in the unlikely event should they return), was a much bigger controversy than any of V&M's losses to D&W for instance. The press were literally so irate they had to have a press conference just to explain the scoring.
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This is absurd, and funny enough people said it about 2018 as well and look at us now. You have no way of knowing that and the assumption alone after all they achieved and how dominant they were since they turned senior (and even before) should be enough for them no to be written off like you just did, with not a single explanation how surprising, but I guess everything is legit when you try to make a point.
 
I

Icetigger

Well-Known Member
Messages
277
angi said:
This is absurd, and funny enough people said it about 2018 as well and look at us now. You have no way of knowing that and the assumption alone after all they achieved and how dominant they were since they turned senior (and even before) should be enough for them no to be written off like you just did, with not a single explanation how surprising, but I guess everything is legit when you try to make a point.
Click to expand...

i agree that V/M could still be a podium threat in four years time. Maybe less so the top (but they'd still be in the running), but definitely silver and bronze. Tessa in particular I think will have little to no decline. Scott i think unfortunately is already showing an element of decline and that may well increase over the next four years. There was a huge gap between them, P/C and the rest of the field. No team has yet proved themselves of coming anywhere near either of theirs levels or their scores. I project some of the younger teams might have a huge leap up, but everyone else of a senior level has pretty much plateau'ed. Until I see another team shoot up, the shoot-out for gold at Beijing would still be between P/C and V/M, and one thing V/M are is fierce competitors.

(I completely agree with everything else in Savchenkoboss' post though)
 
MsZem

MsZem

I see the sea
Messages
18,495
Just a reminder - Torvill and Dean were 36 and 35, respectively, when they competed in 1994. Which is about on par with Savchenko, but older than any of the top ice dancers (the oldest competitors in Pyeongchang were Luca Lanotte and Alper Ucar, both born in 1985).

Virtue and Moir would be 32 and 34 if they were to compete in 2022. Which they won't, because their career is complete and they seem ready to move on. Hopefully their fans are, too!

Also, they're accomplished enough without made-up titles like "super duper extra special grand slam winners".
 
I

Icetigger

Well-Known Member
Messages
277
Zemgirl said:
Virtue and Moir would be 32 and 34 if they were to compete in 2022. Which they won't, because their career is complete and they seem ready to move on. Hopefully their fans are, too!
Click to expand...

I think we will see them back. I don't think they will find skating satisfying without it being a hunt for an Olympic medal.
Zemgirl said:
Also, they're accomplished enough without made-up titles like "super duper extra special grand slam winners".
Click to expand...

Someone has created a whole wikipedia page around these made up titles. It's the saddest thing I've ever read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)

The page is already being called out as BS.

"This page cites a single source for the usage of the term "grand slam" in the context of figure skating; it is not clear that this is widely used, and certainly it is not an official title. The article's suitability for Wikipedia is therefore questionable."

It was probably created by a V/M fan....
​
 
A

angi

Well-Known Member
Messages
678
Icetigger said:
I think we will see them back. I don't think they will find skating satisfying without it being a hunt for an Olympic medal.


Someone has created a whole wikipedia page around these made up titles. It's the saddest thing I've ever read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)

The page is already being called out as BS.

"This page cites a single source for the usage of the term "grand slam" in the context of figure skating; it is not clear that this is widely used, and certainly it is not an official title. The article's suitability for Wikipedia is therefore questionable."

It was probably created by a V/M fan....
​
Click to expand...
Yeah, V/M are barely mentioned there but let's shit on their fans why don't we.
The great thing is that history will the judge of the effect skaters have in the long run, not some users on blogs with bitterness toward teams and skaters. Aljona for sure will go down as one of the greatest and she earned it, same goes for V/M.
 
MsZem

MsZem

I see the sea
Messages
18,495
Icetigger said:
I think we will see them back. I don't think they will find skating satisfying without it being a hunt for an Olympic medal.
Click to expand...
They do have other interests...

angi said:
The great thing is that history will the judge of the effect skaters have in the long run, not some users on blogs with bitterness toward teams and skaters. Aljona for sure will go down as one of the greatest and she earned it, same goes for V/M.
Click to expand...
Without taking away anything from what V/M have accomplished, fun fact time: in addition to winning every major title there is to win, Savchenko has also won all the Grand Prix events (which V/M have not, because they never did CoC or Skate America). She won the first senior event she ever entered (1999 Nebelhorn), and the last senior event that she entered (2018 Worlds). She is the coolest.

Fun fact two: Trankov is only missing CoC. But his greatest contribution to skating will always be "lyrical snot".
 
I

Icetigger

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Messages
277
Zemgirl said:
They do have other interests...
Click to expand...

I'm sure they do. But as likely to garner them this amount of attention income and interest........ I don't see them as having a genuine artistic interest in skating. Their first programme past Pyongyang was that you rock my world programme....... So I can't see them really going on to create work and put it out their free from the context of competition. Holding up things that you get free on instagram or being an ambassador for the most "basic" skincare and jewellery products can only give a person so much satisfaction. They might host a tv show or something, but I don't think they really have the personality for that (just like most sports people). So I do see them returning to competition if they are to continue skating together. And why shouldn't they.........

And if they did get Gold in Beijing (and a couple more World titles; and improve their freedance record; and actually dominate the sport). I would actually consider giving them the G.O.A.T title.
 
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L

look

Member
Messages
36
Haha... we all can go on with our opinions . Grishuk/ Platov never were beaten by anyone . From 94-98. 5 years unbeaten in Every event. Back to back Olympics . Never had to come back a 3 time . If they did probably would have won in Salt lake . Anyway . Amen the End . Unbeaten . In the Book of records , for being the Only unbeaten Ice Dance team . .... bye now 😊
 
MsZem

MsZem

I see the sea
Messages
18,495
look said:
Haha... we all can go on with our opinions . Grishuk/ Platov never were beaten by anyone . From 94-98. 5 years unbeaten in Every event. Back to back Olympics . Never had to come back a 3 time . If they did probably would have won in Salt lake . Anyway . Amen the End . Unbeaten . In the Book of records , for being the Only unbeaten Ice Dance team . .... bye now 😊
Click to expand...
Grishuk and Platov finished 4th in Albertville and 2nd to T/D at 1994 Euros. They certainly have some impressive records, but being the only unbeaten ice dance team is not one of them.

Klimova and Ponomarkenko had an eight year medal streak and never finished lower than 4th internationally.
 
savchenkoboss

savchenkoboss

Banned Member
Messages
471
I would be shocked if Virtue & Moir tried another comeback so we wont see how they would have done in the 2022 Olympics anyway. It could be they might have a shot to medal there (not gold) if they had competed. But as someone else noted they are still on average 2-3 years younger than T&D were in Lillehammer at that point. Their prospective ages at the 2026 Olympics are closer to what T&D were in 94, and the difficulty of taking 10 years off would more than cover the rest, and they atleast probably wouldnt medal if they competed in 2026. T&D not only medaled in 94, but everyone says they were robbed of the gold medal, and they did win Europeans beating all the same teams from the Games, and they did this at the time the grand Soviets were 100 times stronger in ice dancing than they are today. Look at what Virtue & Moir have to compete against from the Soviets in their career- Bobrova & Soloviev, LOL, what a joke. Not their fault of course, but still.

As for 2018 I figured they would be in the top 2 easily when I heard they were making a comeback in 2016, and I would have called a comeback by them or Davis & White as both 50/50, so it makes sense 1 came back and the other didnt which matches 50/50 odds perfectly.
 
L

look

Member
Messages
36
Wrong ...from 94 Olympics to 98 ,,. Unbeaten. I should have clarified 94 Olympics to 98 Olympics Unbeatable only ice dance team to do that between 2 back to back Gold medals .. stick that in your pipe & smoke it 😂 .. 👍
 
watchthis!!

watchthis!!

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,774
aftershocks said:
These GOAT arguments are so boring :yawn: I'd rather go back and watch all the greatest performances of all the greatest teams and athletes in all sports than sit around gabbing about what makes the latest athletes who've achieved rare feats, the greatest. :drama:
Click to expand...

Permission granted. Dismissed.

;)
 
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