Are Virtue & Moir now the ice dancing GOATs?

[savchenkoboss]

I dont agree G&P were winning in 2002 though. Their personal relationship was already horrible by 98. They were also becoming sloppier and making a lot more mistakes that season. They kept their unbeaten streak mostly since Krylova & Ovsiannikov had an awful free dance that year, and Anissina & Peizerat were still on the ascent. If they tried to push it out for 2002 they would have been a mess I imagine. Then again Lobacheva & Averbuhk who kind of suck were a tenth from winning the Oly Gold in 2002 so I guess never underestimate what Russian fed. politics can do.

 

[Ohyes]

a

GOAT is subjective but I would probably say no.

Achievements wise they are great but they don't really have the record for anything. They have 2 Olympic Golds, but Gritschuk & Platov have them consecutively (I don't credit team medals the same way). They have less world titles than a whole bunch of teams, even with a much longer career. They only won the grand prix final once which is a big mark against them historically as that is a major event. Weaver & Poje actually have more grand prix final titles than them, LOL!

And they were far from the most dominant. Even having a long losing streak to Davis & White, who are a great team themselves of course but aren't even brought up as a GOAT contender, smack in the middle of their primes. They did win the majority of their head to heads with Papadakis & Cizeron, but lost the majority of the free dances, winning most of their encounters due to odd short dance issues P&C were having. And that was V&M at their all time peak, while P&C probably have yet to reach theirs.

Most of all as all of Gritschuk & Platov, Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Pakhamova & Gorshkov are relatively close in achievements I look at intangible impact. And in that I would say G&P are clearly last and V&M arguably 2nd last of those 5 teams. Torvill & Dean are by far #1 here, and that makes them the GOAT if I had to pick one. There is no program V&M ever did which will be as talked about as atleast 3 of T&D's- Bolero, Mack and Mabel, and Barnum. T&D in their primes were also unbeatable, V&M in their primes were not unbeatable. T&D's Olympic loss in 94 at an old age where V&M probably wouldn't even be medal contending anymore if they tried to compete that old (it is around the age V&M would be in 2022 and I don't think V&M will even medal at the 2022 Games, let alone be contending for gold, in the unlikely event should they return), was a much bigger controversy than any of V&M's losses to D&W for instance. The press were literally so irate they had to have a press conference just to explain the scoring.

- They have the most Olympic medals for a figure skaters but I guess that doesn't count to you *eye roll*
- Olympic>>>>>>>Worlds/gpf
- so i guess if you're going by solely world medals since Yuna Kim only had two and mao has three that means carol heiss and herma szabo and lily kronberger are the goats since they have more? I am sure they are more idolized and remembered than yuna and mao will ever be *eyeroll*. there are some skaters that have 5/6 world titles yet no one remembers them.
- GPF was an event they were usually underscored in.
- I mean really? in most interviews with juniors, they mention V/M not T/D as their inspirations. i think its a generational thing people who are older (mainly people here) tend to think T/D are the GOAT were as on tumblr and twitter sites with younger demographics see V/M as the GOAT i think its safe to say they both GOAT but in different generations.
- Expect MR had an astronomical impact and went viral. Celebrities were talking about it. it was trending number worldwide. the whole stadium cheering was the loudest i have ever heard an ice dance team get. Mahler is also regarded as very memorable ice dance program.

What should anyone be surprised over people coming in here to try and downplay V/M accomplishments When people on this site are so jealous and bitter over them. want to know what the definition of salt is? look up the 2018 Olympic ice dance thread on this site and read the comments. The butthurt was real and hilarious and hypocritical.

 

[Ohyes]

And after so many years people still remember those programs and talk about them (of course mainly Bolero). Yet V&M fans are so proud that they stlll watch Moulin Rouge. Let's wait 30-40 years and see how many of them will still watch it and talk about it.

Moulin rouge Went VIRAL and got the general publics attention (trending worldwide at number one also got the moulin rouge soundtrack trending on itunes) and got a standing o at the Olympics and got the loudest crowd response i have ever heard an ice dance team get. They also got celebrity shout-outs and went on ellen and they aren't even an American team. They have the most views of any athlete on the Olympic channel from 2018 games after yuzuru hanyu. I am sure people will be talking about it 30-40 years from now. V/M also has one of the largest and dedicated fanbases in figure skating so I wouldn't worry if I were you.

 

[savchenkoboss]

a

- They have the most Olympic medals for a figure skaters but I guess that doesn't count to you *eye roll*
- Olympic>>>>>>>Worlds/gpf
- so i guess if you're going by solely world medals since Yuna Kim only had two and mao has three that means carol heiss and herma szabo and lily kronberger are the goats since they have more? I am sure they are more idolized and remembered than yuna and mao will ever be *eyeroll*. there are some skaters that have 5/6 world titles yet no one remembers them.
- GPF was an event they were usually underscored in.
- I mean really? in most interviews with juniors, they mention V/M not T/D as their inspirations. i think its a generational thing people who are older (mainly people here) tend to think T/D are the GOAT were as on tumblr and twitter sites with younger demographics see V/M as the GOAT i think its safe to say they both GOAT but in different generations.
- Expect MR had an astronomical impact and went viral. Celebrities were talking about it. it was trending number worldwide. the whole stadium cheering was the loudest i have ever heard an ice dance team get. Mahler is also regarded as very memorable ice dance program.

What should anyone be surprised over people coming in here to try and downplay V/M accomplishments When people on this site are so jealous and bitter over them. want to know what the definition of salt is? look up the 2018 Olympic ice dance thread on this site and read the comments. The butthurt was real and hilarious and hypocritical.

You come across as an over the top lovesick V&M fanatic, ROTFL! So because I dont think they are the GOATs I am jealous and bitter. You are f-cking hilarious. I am not bitter to anyone, I am just glad I am not a crazy fanatic of anyone like you are. People like you are glory hunters who pathetically live their own worthless lives through instead projecting a fantasy of their favorite athlete(s), in whatever sport, and project their favorites lives/careers onto their own as a kind of replacement. As if their favorite athlete winning Olympics or Wimbledon or the World Cup is their own achievement, through their favorite doing it.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I wrote about the resurrecting the thread, but if you had read carefully what I wrote you would know it had nothing to do with taking the offence about the resurrecting the thread. It was about drammagrrl taking offence that some people don't agree with the notion that VM are goat.

VM are easily winning this poll. People who believe other teams are goat didn't even get 35% of votes (at the moment when I'm writing this message). Yet, it's not enough for V&M fans. They would only be happy if V&M got 100%. Why can't they understand that not everybody must agree that V&M are the greatest.

Moreover, in order to prove that V&M are the greatest they belittle the achievements of other teams. The fact that T&D revolutionised the ice dance and they had the biggest impact on this discipline of sport or that they were responsible for their own choreography don't count. Because why would ice dance fans care about such insignificant things?

Omigod, I so agree with everything you said here! Especialy the bolded part. Being verbally attacked in mere minutes by a rabid V&M uber already for just respectfully opining I dont view V&M as the GOATs sure solidifies that.

 

[Viscaro]

Being verbally attacked in mere minutes by a rabid V&M uber already for just respectfully opining I dont view V&M as the GOATs sure solidifies that.

Do not worry, a couple of very vocals person do not make a crowd. This topic is particularly crazy

As if their favorite athlete winning Olympics or Wimbledon or the World Cup is their own achievement, through their favorite doing it.

Exactly ! It is such a strange feeling that these competitions build. I do feel it for the World Cup for example (in football). In the Russia vs. Croatia I was very strongly for Russia to the point of (relative) dissapointement when they lost despite having no interest in football and no connection to either country whatsoever.

It's quite normal that Ice Dancing creates even more of this irrational stuff : 1) It is a competitive sport (so perfect for feeling competitive, yeah it's not my most ground-breaking statement yet) 2) It is very subjective, like every artistic work is, and we tend to take very personally attacks about our tastes which we somehow use to define us or our personality (I'm talking about art in general here, not Ice Dancing esp. : when I let someone see my music playlist it feels intimate and personal) 3) Dance creates empathy with the artists, with involves us even more.

On top of it some us here might be quite young, although age does not necessarily makes one wiser and there's no fool like an old fool. And anyways, I have to admit this thread is some form of guilty pleasure for me : crazy is entertaining.

 

[Icetigger]

The V/M fans who can't even bear a rational and intelligent discussion of this subject do their idols a disservice.

 

[MsZem]

- I mean really? in most interviews with juniors, they mention V/M not T/D as their inspirations. i think its a generational thing people who are older (mainly people here) tend to think T/D are the GOAT were as on tumblr and twitter sites with younger demographics see V/M as the GOAT i think its safe to say they both GOAT but in different generations.

- Expect MR had an astronomical impact and went viral. Celebrities were talking about it. it was trending number worldwide. the whole stadium cheering was the loudest i have ever heard an ice dance team get. Mahler is also regarded as very memorable ice dance program.

Bolero got higher ratings.

You can't compare between reaction types; in 1984, TV viewership was greater. In 2018, many people go online.

V/M have many dedicated fans, but maybe not quite as many as you seem to think. The four-year fans and celebrities will move on the next (perceived) cool thing.

 

[Twilight1]

This thread is still going?

Might as well contribute....

Virtue & Moir started a cross county tour. They are Canadian GOATS!

Now can people move on?

You can't bully people to say V&M are GOATS. Just like you can't bully people to say they aren't.

Just sayin...

 

[VGThuy]

All I know is that I love their dancing and skating. I also love many of the teams people named to counter the idea that V/M are GOATs. It doesn't matter who is a GOAT and who isn't as that will change every generation or so so long as a team starts dominating. What only matters is how a team and their performances make you feel and if they inspire others to feel the same. One can't deny that V/M have definitely have done that and have inspired the young generation...and even have older generations in awe of them....no matter how much one dislikes V/M due to their personal taste or other reasons.

 

[savchenkoboss]

This thread is still going?

Might as well contribute....

Virtue & Moir started a cross county tour. They are Canadian GOATS!

Now can people move on?

You can't bully people to say V&M are GOATS. Just like you can't bully people to say they aren't.

Just sayin...

For me as far as enjoyment factor Bourne & Kraatz are still the Canadian GOATs. I am fine with the ridicule I am sure to get from that. I enjoy watching their performances more than any other Canadian team, despite that I like all of Virtue & Moir, Wilson & McCall, Dubreuil & Lauzon as well. Their Riverdance routine is still one of my all time favorites and I can watch that over and over again. I also loved their High Society routine. And their incredible innovation with their hydroblading moves and all. I know it got them in trouble with the establishment at times, and I can understand why, but I still loved it.

Virtue & Moir are great and probably considerably better technically overall than previous Canadian greats Bourne & Kraatz or Wilson & McCall, even considering the eras each were in, but one thing they are fortunate is they skate in a time a lot of the politics of dance have died down. They dont have to deal with the bloc judging against Canadian and U.S teams and in favor of the Eastern bloc teams past Canadian and U .S teams like Blumberg & Seibert, Bourne & Kraatz, Punsalen & Swallow, and to a lesser degree Belbin & Agosto all did. That plus like I said earlier that dance is dead in Europe, with the very odd exception like Papadkis & Cizeron, and deader than dead in Russia/ex Soviet Union. With the exception of Papadakis & Cizeron, the list of non Canadian/U.S teams they have competed against since 2010 atleast reads like a bad joke of sorts. A team like Bobrova & Soloviev wouldnt have even qualified to a single World Championships for Soviet Union/Russia in the 70s/80s/90s probably, and today they won like the last 8 Russian Championships.

 

[sap5]

All I know is that I love their dancing and skating. I also love many of the teams people named to counter the idea that V/M are GOATs. It doesn't matter who is a GOAT and who isn't as that will change every generation or so so long as a team starts dominating. What only matters is how a team and their performances make you feel and if they inspire others to feel the same. One can't deny that V/M have definitely have done that and have inspired the young generation...and even have older generations in awe of them....no matter how much one dislikes V/M due to their personal taste or other reasons.

Maybe the better question is who is GOAT of this era? B/c T/D, K/P, and G/P were all GOATs in their times, imo, and I see V/M as the GOAT in their time. Who is next remains to be seen.

 

[MsZem]

Maybe the better question is who is GOAT of this era? B/c T/D, K/P, and G/P were all GOATs in their times, imo, and I see V/M as the GOAT in their time. Who is next remains to be seen.

The whole idea of being the greatest of all time is that it transcends eras but I think the idea of GOATs is silly, because sports change, requirements change, the competitive structure may change, training opportunities change... the comparisons become meaningless. It's like the arguments whether Lebron James is greater than Michael Jordan. Who cares? They're both great, impact players.

Likewise, V/M are excellent skaters who've accomplished a lot. I'd put them among the greats for sure. Any further "rankings" are really a matter of personal preference.

 

[dramagrrl]

For me as far as enjoyment factor Bourne & Kraatz are still the Canadian GOATs. I am fine with the ridicule I am sure to get from that.

Actually, all the crazies here who think I am some newbie VM ubertroll would probably faint dead away to hear me say this, but even though I think VM are the Canadian GOATs (and probably the GOATs in general) objectively, subjectively there is a part of my heart that will always give B&K first place. (It's like B&K are my #1 and V&M are my #1.0000001, in which the lower score wins by a tiny fraction. )

 

[sap5]

The whole idea of being the greatest of all time is that it transcends eras but I think the idea of GOATs is silly, because sports change, requirements change, the competitive structure may change, training opportunities change... the comparisons become meaningless. It's like the arguments whether Lebron James is greater than Michael Jordan. Who cares? They're both great, impact players.

Exactly. Every sport has multiple GOATS, as every sport changes through time.

 

[MsZem]

Exactly. Every sport has multiple GOATS, as every sport changes through time.

When Rickey Henderson went into the Baseball Hall of Fame, he said that he was in the class of the greatest players of all time and paused - at which point it was kind of expected that he'd add "and I am the greatest". Instead, he said that he was very, very humbled. I think that being considered one of the greats is an honor in itself.

 

[VGThuy]

Actually, all the crazies here who think I am some newbie VM ubertroll would probably faint dead away to hear me say this, but even though I think VM are the Canadian GOATs (and probably the GOATs in general) objectively, subjectively there is a part of my heart that will always give B&K first place. (It's like B&K are my #1 and V&M are my #1.0000001, in which the lower score wins by a tiny fraction. )

I think it comes to Canada specifically, a real argument could be made about Bourne/Kraatz because I think they did so much to put Canadian ice dance on the map and they were facing a field that was completely dominated by Europe as were the judging panels. I personally don't think B/K were really robbed of anything, but I completely understand how frustrating the journey was for them and sympathize with it. To me, when I think of Canadian ice dance, it's always B/K who I think of first. Yes, I know Wilson/McCall medaled at the Olympics before them, but it just seemed like B/K really forced the door open for North American ice dance.

It sounds funny but when people talk about American ice dance, the first team I think of for similar reasons is Belbin/Agosto. I think that HAS to be a generational thing as there were a lot of American teams before them that were placing in the top ten at Worlds with Blumberg/Seibert being the most notable. But it just seems B/A broke down so many barriers for American ice dance and it helped pave the way for V/M (I know their Canadian but still North American and non-European) and D/W to dominate. I also think B/A had their road paved by B/K.

 

[Icetigger]

My favourite Canadian ice dancers are the Duchesnays. Might we not say they started the Canadian ice dance tradition? Doing a Torvill and Dean programme; the Canadians certainly loved them in Halifax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coM4d1CQZfs or here's a version with Canadian commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgo5-w7smSM

Maybe rather setting up and contributing to a thread out to lord a North American ice dance team over all other teams, and throwing tantrums when anyone even vaguely suggests looking at the whole thing rationally, those contributors should remember where their Ice Dance tradition's roots actually come from........

The first North Americans to win world championship Gold did so under the tutelage of Christopher Dean doing an extension of a Torvill and Dean programme for the free.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I think it comes to Canada specifically, a real argument could be made about Bourne/Kraatz because I think they did so much to put Canadian ice dance on the map and they were facing a field that was completely dominated by Europe as were the judging panels. I personally don't think B/K were really robbed of anything, but I completely understand how frustrating the journey was for them and sympathize with it. To me, when I think of Canadian ice dance, it's always B/K who I think of first. Yes, I know Wilson/McCall medaled at the Olympics before them, but it just seemed like B/K really forced the door open for North American ice dance.

It sounds funny but when people talk about American ice dance, the first team I think of for similar reasons is Belbin/Agosto. I think that HAS to be a generational thing as there were a lot of American teams before them that were placing in the top ten at Worlds with Blumberg/Seibert being the most notable. But it just seems B/A broke down so many barriers for American ice dance and it helped pave the way for V/M (I know their Canadian but still North American and non-European) and D/W to dominate. I also think B/A had their road paved by B/K.

I can see the case for Belbin/Agosto for the U.S but what about Blimberg/Seibert? They faced a monstrous field including peak Torvill & Dean, Bestiamanova & Bukin, Moiseeva & Minenkov, young Klimova & Ponomarenko and regularly won medals and were competitive. Also very innovative, great personalities and had a long pro career. They also faced brutal Eastern European politics and were questionably robbed numerous times, especialy the 84 Olympics where many think they even deserved silver, and were pushed off the podium.

 

[shine]

How are they GOAT if they are not even the greatest of their own era?

 

[Andora]

I can see the case for Belbin/Agosto for the U.S but what about Blimberg/Seibert? They faced a monstrous field including peak Torvill & Dean, Bestiamanova & Bukin, Moiseeva & Minenkov, young Klimova & Ponomarenko and regularly won medals and were competitive. Also very innovative, great personalities and had a long pro career. They also faced brutal Eastern European politics and were questionably robbed numerous times, especialy the 84 Olympics where many think they even deserved silver, and were pushed off the podium.

I may have this wrong, but I think the point was more generational.

Blumberg & Seibert would have maybe inspired/forged the path for Punsalan & Swallow or Roca & Sur more than Belbin & Agosto, I'd think. Or to keep the cross-border inspiration theory going, they forged the path for Wilson & McCaul.

For me, I settle more and more on Klimova & Ponomarenko being the GOATs for filling more boxes more consistently in terms of results, medals, technique and great programs. They also were part of the changing the ice dance landscape during the 1989-1992 quad. Literally no one else comes close - except for Virtue & Moir.

 

[savchenkoboss]

How are they GOAT if they are not even the greatest of their own era?

Who is the greatest of their era. The only other candidates are D&W and P&C. I think if Papadakis & Cizeron do the expected and win the next 4 worlds and the next Olympics as 7 time World Champions and Olympic Champions, you might have to give it to them. Although an Olympic Gold-extra Olympic Gold is worth about 4 world titles so even then credential wise they will be close to tied even then, but P&C will probably also have a ton more GPF wins which would give them the nod. However right now I think you have to give them the edge over both Davis & White and Papdakis & Cizeron. Achievements wise they are over both ATM, and impact wise neither of those teams is superior yet. Well that is subjective, but D&W definitely arent superior impact wise, and P&C it is hard to say but probably not yet.

 

[VGThuy]

I can see the case for Belbin/Agosto for the U.S but what about Blimberg/Seibert? They faced a monstrous field including peak Torvill & Dean, Bestiamanova & Bukin, Moiseeva & Minenkov, young Klimova & Ponomarenko and regularly won medals and were competitive. Also very innovative, great personalities and had a long pro career. They also faced brutal Eastern European politics and were questionably robbed numerous times, especialy the 84 Olympics where many think they even deserved silver, and were pushed off the podium.

I think if Blumberg/Seibert had more American teams following their success and even surpassing it then it would be a more noticeable trend. But the period where the idea of an American ice dance team winning a World medal being laughable that followed was pretty long. Belbin/Agosto had unprecedented success and were followed by Davis/White who were then followed by the trifecta of the Shibs, Chock/Bates, and Hubbell/Donohue who are now followed by a slew of World Junior Champs/medalists, 4CC champs, and GP medalists who are just waiting to be put on the World team (H/B were able to go to their first Worlds four years after winning their World Junior title thanks to the Shibs dropping out). Also, B/A's success was with a coaching team and style that was followed by V/M and D/W (style is a relative term as I know people will not think V/M skate similarly to B/A but I remember the days of V/M and D/W's domination and how many on the forums were lamenting about the "North American style"). That coaching team also had the Shibs and Chock/Bates. So it's easier to see the follow-through. I will say IJS helped a lot to make that change happen but it was up to the teams themselves and Igor/Marina to make use of it.

 

[Icetigger]

Although an Olympic Gold-extra Olympic Gold is worth about 4 world titles

I just don't get this. If a bus comes along once an hour rather than once every quarter of an hour is it a magic bus? It's just a world field senior competition. That the Olympics are this magical competition is a load of hype not based on any objective criteria; and promulgated by people like Phil Hersh and Christine Brennan and the whole Olympic industry to justify a three week long jolly and related business opportunities.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I just don't get this. If a bus comes along once an hour rather than once every quarter of an hour is it a magic bus? It's just a world field senior competition. That the Olympics are this magical competition is a load of hype not based on any objective criteria; and promulgated by people like Phil Hersh and Christine Brennan and the whole Olympic industry to justify a three week long jolly and related business opportunities.

Personally if I were to grade by importance I would grade an Olympics at a 15, a worlds at about a 6, a Grand Prix final at about a 4 or 5. I think it is more the Grand Prix final is close to the same as a worlds than the worlds close to the same as the Olympics. The Olympics are so far above worlds in prestige, it is just the reality of things. This day in age I almost wonder if the Grand Prix final is becoming bigger than the worlds as skaters build most of their season to qualifying and then peaking and winning there, while the worlds is just a one off. Worlds nowhere near the Olympics for sure. In tennis regular Masters have the exact same fields as a Slam for the most part, but they dont come near importance.

 

[Icetigger]

The Olympics are so far above worlds in prestige

Then it's an opinion based on opinion as fact. Plus you said an Olympics is worth 4 times a worlds title, but then graded them at a ratio of 2.5 to one-perhaps indicative of how unsteady a footing this is. For me what people think something is as opposed to what it is is not a meaningful way of thinking about these things.

If I just want to go off an opinion, I'd just go off mine- it's P/C, just because I think what they do is higher quality than what anyone else has produced.

It would however be interesting to see some sort of grading, only I would rate the Os, Ws and GPF the same. It wouldn't work though because of the absence of some of those competitions historically, and also the rules previously re professionalism; also people do return due to injury and are not able to have longer careers for whatever reason, but that doesn't really diminish what they were capable of or the level to which they were capable. Even with that super duper hooper career grand slam BS and V/M being the only team to have won all these events, you have to take in to account that the JGPF wasn't available to G/P but they did win all the other events, and that that unique achievement isn't as unique as the poster repeat posting it thinks it is.

 

[look]

I actually have to laugh when ppl equate Grishuk/Platov 2 Gold Medals to Russian Fed Fix . The 2 teams that won silver below them, were both Russian . Russia would have gotten their medal regardless. O/K could have won in 98. No skin off Russia Nose ....

 

[MAXSwagg]

I just don't get this. If a bus comes along once an hour rather than once every quarter of an hour is it a magic bus? It's just a world field senior competition. That the Olympics are this magical competition is a load of hype not based on any objective criteria; and promulgated by people like Phil Hersh and Christine Brennan and the whole Olympic industry to justify a three week long jolly and related business opportunities.

The Olympics are special because it's about who can hold it together in that moment (in most cases). Michelle couldn't hold it together (twice). Patrick cold not hold it together. Sasha and Slutskaya could not hold it together. In contrast, Tara held it together. Hughes held it together. Arakawa held it together. Kim held it together. Hanyu held it together (twice, the second time under incredible circumstances and pressure the likes of which no other skater has faced). Yagudin held it together. Witt held it together (twice). You can go on and on. Worlds, big deal. You can try again in twelve months. Who knows if you can make it another four years. Shen and Zhao came back for Olympic gold. Savchenko stayed in for Olympic gold. Even she and Robin could not hold it together despite their five world titles. Volosozhar and Trankov (both teams of whom have about the same issues with inconsistency) DID hold it together.

 

[Deleted member 74551]

I just don't get this. If a bus comes along once an hour rather than once every quarter of an hour is it a magic bus? It's just a world field senior competition. That the Olympics are this magical competition is a load of hype not based on any objective criteria; and promulgated by people like Phil Hersh and Christine Brennan and the whole Olympic industry to justify a three week long jolly and related business opportunities.

I see where you’re coming from, but the bus has been made magic over the years- it’s a load of hype the athletes themselves buy in to, countless have spoken about how they try to approach the Olympics as any other competition but when they get there it just feels different. The media scrutiny is more intense, the crowd enthusiasm is a new factor (the Shibs spoke well in an interview about how surprised they were by this despite all their experience) and the skaters have built this moment up in their minds their whole lives in a way that they don’t for any other event. You’d expect all competitors to be at their absolute best at the Olympics too because the whole quad has usually been planned for peaking then. All that hype means there’s that much more pressure to perform and thus yes, it’s more impressive when you win it. IMO, of course. One factor that I think goes in VM’s favour in the GOAT debate is that they’ve delivered near-best performances 7 times in individual competition on that stage under those conditions over three quads, a display of competitive steel and longevity few can match. Intangibles could be debated for ever, but I don’t think I’ll see anything match the cultural impact of Bolero. And I’m also with everyone who just loves B/K Riverdance is the GOAT program for no other reason than it’s my favorite!

 

[VGThuy]

The Olympics are special because it's about who can hold it together in that moment (in most cases). Michelle couldn't hold it together (twice). Patrick cold not hold it together. Sasha and Slutskaya could not hold it together. In contrast, Tara held it together. Hughes held it together. Arakawa held it together. Kim held it together. Hanyu held it together (twice, the second time under incredible circumstances and pressure the likes of which no other skater has faced). Yagudin held it together. Witt held it together (twice). You can go on and on. Worlds, big deal. You can try again in twelve months. Who knows if you can make it another four years. Shen and Zhao came back for Olympic gold. Savchenko stayed in for Olympic gold. Even she and Robin could not hold it together despite their five world titles. Volosozhar and Trankov (both teams of whom have about the same issues with inconsistency) DID hold it together.

I just want to say that Michelle Kwan in Nagano held it together better than some Olympic Champions that came before her or some after in different disciplines with IJS allowing some champs to gain a big lead after the SP so they could afford to lose the LP and still win gold. To me saying Kwan didn't hold it together in Nagano is like saying Kim didn't hold it together in Sochi. I mean saying Arakawa held it together when she doubled a planned triple and only did five triples and got lucky that she was able to take advantage of worse performances by Slutskaya and Cohen shows people hold Kwan to a different standard and just shows luck some times play a part because whether you're considered a choker or not some times all depends on how everyone else skated. I would say something about Hanyu's actual performances winning the OGM if we're talking about skaters "holding it together" but I'm actually a fan of his and I rather not get attacked.