The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[kittysk8ts]

What will happen in 2-3 years time when a challenger emerges for P/C (assuming P/C stay in)?

See @starrynight 's comment just a few posts up, re the change to the GOE range to be implemented next season. This will give them a way to deal with that, should it happen.

 

[caseyedwards]

All p/c goe will immediately go to five so there is no opportunity to beat them.

 

[Anyasnake]

Bobrova/Soloviev are going to Worlds for those who were still questionning that, that's what he said in the small medal ceremony.

 

[Bigbird]

Bobrova/Soloviev are going to Worlds for those who were still questionning that, that's what he said in the small medal ceremony.

Maybe between them and S/B they can get back those three spots.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Maybe between them and S/B they can get back those three spots.

Yes, I think this is certainly possible, maybe even probable.

 

[nlyoung]

Scores at the Olympics will not be as high as we have been seeing unless one of the top two teams makes mistakes before the other has gone, taking away any incentive to hold back marks. It doesn't matter how they skate, there are politics involved, and there will be a "split" panel. There is no way a judge who prefers V/M will give all +3s and 10s to P/C unless V/M are already out of it, just as a P/C judge won't give these marks.

Other judges will be playing politics for different reasons. For instance, there is very little chance P/C won't win both parts of the Team event if they skate, simply because P/C in first helps other teams in the race for the podium. Even if they make a mistake the teams are close enough that high marks will be justified. P/C in first keeps the point spread between Canada and the other contenders closer. The French will be out of it so it doesn't matter how many points P/C get. Their role is to act as spoiler. I intend to watch the dance competition for the joy of seeing all the teams put out great programs, all the while knowing that unless there is a major error by a team, results are pretty much predetermined.

 

[Anyasnake]

Maybe between them and S/B they can get back those three spots.

I think they will too, the surprise is if they don't.

 

[caseyedwards]

Russia having three spots is a waste. They don’t have the talent. Based on 2017 worlds SD baseline for placements is 8th and 10th. No v/m that could mean 7th and 9th. With huge mistakes from other teams and more withdrawals it could be less than 13 but I hope not. 5th and 10th to 4th and 9th.

Tired of teams with potential doing old style 6.0 ice dance.

 

[topaz]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Scores were too high last year as well but V/M never got perfect scores for multiple elements and pcs categories.

And I definitely think no skater should be getting perfect scores (or incredibly close to them). You can point to any figure skating performance in history and it can always be better. I can maybe see how the rare technical element that's absolutely amazing can get all +3s but nearly all of them? And perfect interpretation? perfect performance?

This isn't a question of artificially keeping P/C's scores down to "leave room" for later skaters. It's that P/C's scores are so inflated (I'm sure even their biggest fans would admit that they have room to grow) that a) they have nowhere to go with their scores, other than achieving a few more level 4s - there's nothing they could improve, according to the judges; and b) if V/M were 2nd in the SD by a relatively small margin, they could have the performance of the century in the FD and still not make up the gap, because there'd only be about 1/2 a point or so between P/C's score and a perfect score. Obviously there's also levels to take into account but still, that's a highly problematic situation, no matter the skaters involved.

Also, as an aside, I hate Moulin Rouge with the power of a thousand suns and don't like V/M's FD; P/C's program is much more enjoyable to me. However, subjective likes and dislikes should, as much as possible, not cloud our evaluation of what is meant to be a sport. And from that perspective, I'll admit I don't see where P/C are superior. They have great strengths but also great weaknesses, and with they way they're being scored they have zero incentive to work on their weaknesses. That's a great disservice to them, in the long run. And to us as fans, who could miss out on seeing a P/C team that has fully realized their great potential.

Well looking that the FD at euros and comparing to GPF, P/C did work on the FD and changed parts of the dance. So clearly, their team felt there were room for improvement. In my opinion, its possible they did receive feedback from judges. Even the teams get level 4 elements they still have to take into account the GOE.

V/M last season in their SD and FD and received perfect scores GOE on elements - No touch midline steps and they received almost all +3 GOE on Curve Rotation Lift . They also received 10s in several pcs categories last year(GPF, 4C and WC) in the SD and FD.
http://skatingscores.com/2017/fc/short/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/
http://skatingscores.com/2017/wc/short/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/
http://skatingscores.com/2017/fc/long/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/
http://skatingscores.com/2017/wc/long/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/
http://skatingscores.com/2017/gpf/short/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/
http://skatingscores.com/2017/gpf/long/unit/can/tessa_virtue_scott_moir/

Also, I'd like to add at the GPF(their last head to head matchup with V/M). The TES difference between the two teams came down to the GOE on 1)Pattern Steps, 2)Rhumba 1st sect and 3)Twizzles.

Something I think we can agree on is that Judges either do not know ijs really works(I beleive some do not or are still confused) or decide to use scores, GOE as way to rank skatings. In dance some teams get the same GOE and level for the same element, within the same competition. It's pretty hard for the same team to perform the same element the same way, yet I've seen this for the last 3 seasons.

There will be changes to the ijs dance judging next season. They need more camera angles and other options to improve the judging.

 

[topaz]

I've been feeling for awhile that the various judging panels have been in a bit of a "pissing contest" with each other all season over who can give the highest scores to P/C and V/M in the FD.

Yes both programs are great but holy crap.....not as great as their marks are showing.

What will happen in 2-3 years time when a challenger emerges for P/C (assuming P/C stay in)?

Judging changes will occur next season.

Russia having three spots is a waste. They don’t have the talent. Based on 2017 worlds SD baseline for placements is 8th and 10th. No v/m that could mean 7th and 9th. With huge mistakes from other teams and more withdrawals it could be less than 13 but I hope not. 5th and 10th to 4th and 9th.

Tired of teams with potential doing old style 6.0 ice dance.

I like the some of the young Russian teams.

 

[Bigbird]

Judging changes will occur next season.



I like the some of the young Russian teams.

Yeah, some of their young Russian teams do have talent.

 

[caseyedwards]

Judging changes will occur next season.



I like the some of the young Russian teams.

It’s sad because it has been 8 years of the young Russians have talent and Russian ice dance is in its lowest ever standing. There has been 8 years of no consistently successful transition to senior from a junior team!

 

[Dobre]

I think the reason everything is getting very enthusiastic this season is that the judges know there is the upcoming change to +/- 5 GOE. So that way they are not in a position where the scores have totally maxed out and this is it for high scores.

So next season, they will just push up the GOE to +4/+5 to allow there to be more room for even higher scores if that's what they choose to do.

Yes, and I think this combined with it being an Olympic season is why the GOE scoring is so nuts. Provided the scoring system changes to +5 and -5 next season, all this year's records will be obsolete. It's like the end of 6.0 when the judges suddenly started handing out sixes like candy. I think both V&M and P&C definitely have some +3 elements. But all of them? No. Even when performed at their best, not all of their elements are superior to those of a number of teams in the field. You can argue that GOE is for "execution" rather than risk and that multiple teams can deserve +3 on elements. I agree with both. But I don't like to see the top teams getting a pass for playing it safe either. When they have one of the best elements and execute it exceptionally well, then +3 for certain. But when poorly performed or playing it safe, then I'd like to see them pay the price or get the generic marking. Which is--by no means--to criticize either team. Only the way GOE is being handed out across the board.

Also, I think this race to the ceiling has its hazards, even for the top teams. Scores were tight at Worlds last season, but that isn't the norm. Often we see scores rise for the whole field during the biggest event of the year, especially at an Olympics. As we've already seen at U.S. and Canadian Nationals, when scores rise across the board for the larger field, you eliminate the normal distance between teams. And obvious mistakes by top athletes facing podium pressure & expectations--like Weaver & Poje's missed twizzles at Canadian Nationals--can suddenly send you lower than would have happened in an event called more tightly.

It's very interesting that Gilles & Poirier, Hubbell & Donohue, and Stepanova & Bukin have all had breakthrough placements over the past month. Even Guignard & Fabbri in the free at Europeans. All teams sitting in 8, 9th, 10th, & 11th place at last year's Worlds. Teams busy chasing & not dealing with the same form of pressure to podium at the Olympic Games as their countrymen. It's great for these teams and a credit to how they have skated, but I think it's also a reflection of the pressure that favorites & the podium contenders face during an Olympic season.

 

[clairecloutier]

Just catching up with the Euros FD. So many great dances! I loved most of them, but I think my biggest highlights were probably Hurtado/Khaliavin and Guignard/Fabbri. Love Sara/Kirill’s soft knees and amazing performance level. And so impressed with Guignard/Fabbri’s speed and partnering. It was a great event all around—although sad to see Cappellini/Lanotte with uncharacteristic struggles.

 

[Dobre]

I also thought Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen's free dance was the best we've seen it this season. Much sharper than the beginning of the season.

Kaliszek & Spodyriev, likewise, had their strongest FD performance thus far, IMO. So what do people think about calling them NatMak? Or another nickname? Perhaps they have one of their own? Natalia & Maxsym are such common skating names that they are hard to remember. And the last names are quite challenging from an English spelling perspective. The "sz" in her name: I've found it phonetically very tough to file away in my brain. And while I think I finally have it, I've noticed that a lot of people tend to avoid writing their names at all--probably because of the challenge of writing them. But we can't just keep referring to K&S as "the Poles" forever. Especially now that we are starting to see a second Polish team.

Also, it was nice to see Yanovskaya & Lukacs for the first time on clear video rather than a choppy Challenger feed.

On the disappointing side, I cannot believe Abachkina & Thauron missed their last lift again. For the third time this season! I kind of expected a mistake, but not quite this level of deja vu.

 

[MarieM]

Kaliszek & Spodyriev are weak ice dancers. That they are top ten at euros is a big sad joke. Like it was for Nowak&Kolasinski a while back. They got levels like candy, and she can't stay on edges most of the time, and he's not better.

Yanovskaya is wasted on her partner. I can't get how on earth she couldn't find a better russian partner. IMO Mozgov was stupid to let her go, she's so much better than Bettina will ever be. She has edges and can maintain them in steps.

Stepanova has made huge progresses, I just wish she could find a technical coach to tell her to delve more with her edges into the ice. That's all they lack as far as the technic is concerned. She's getting better, and she's starting to look like a woman and not a barbie doll anymore.

Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen always bring it in the season't end. That has to change because they are losing PCS and Goe with that kind of seasons. They are exquisite, and IMO that FD was the second best on the night.

 

[Bigbird]

Kaliszek & Spodyriev are weak ice dancers. That they are top ten at euros is a big sad joke. Like it was for Nowak&Kolasinski a while back. They got levels like candy, and she can't stay on edges most of the time, and he's not better.

Yanovskaya is wasted on her partner. I can't get how on earth she couldn't find a better russian partner. IMO Mozgov was stupid to let her go, she's so much better than Bettina will ever be. She has edges and can maintain them in steps.

Stepanova has made huge progresses, I just wish she could find a technical coach to tell her to delve more with her edges into the ice. That's all they lack as far as the technic is concerned. She's getting better, and she's starting to look like a woman and not a barbie doll anymore.

Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen always bring it in the season't end. That has to change because they are losing PCS and Goe with that kind of seasons. They are exquisite, and IMO that FD was the second best on the night.

As TAT says its easier to find a husband than to find a good partner in Russian ice dance. There just aren't any and among those that are considered good, none is the complete package. Their girls across all disciplines seem to be exponentially more focused and purposeful, than the boys. That is just a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

 

[chapis]

And Sara just went to take a good Russian partner, lucky girl

 

[Marta24]

And Sara just went to take a good Russian partner, lucky girl

And lucky boy I doubt he would go now to the Olympics if he had instead teamed up with someone like Yanovskaya.

 

[firstflight]

Sorry if I missed this elsewhere-- Did Tobias/Tkachenko stop skating together after the confirmation that he would not be granted citizenship?

 

[chapis]

Sorry if I missed this elsewhere-- Did Tobias/Tkachenko stop skating together after the confirmation that he would not be granted citizenship?

They have not said anything, maybe Isabella is waiting to see if she finds another partner who can get citizenship to dump Tkachenko. Anyway, it was not like they were training like crazy. Isabella decided to get married and take a long enough honeymoon this season, while all the other teams were working like crazy preparing for the Olympic season. Maybe she already knew there were no possibilities? But then why change coach?

 

[muffinplus]

Just catching up with the Euros FD. So many great dances! I loved most of them, but I think my biggest highlights were probably Hurtado/Khaliavin and Guignard/Fabbri. Love Sara/Kirill’s soft knees and amazing performance level. And so impressed with Guignard/Fabbri’s speed and partnering. It was a great event all around—although sad to see Cappellini/Lanotte with uncharacteristic struggles.

These were my absolute 2 faves as well! I'm surprised I could like (or even love) a Don Quixote program, but it's really good one. Guignard & Fabbri were surely underscored.... they were flying out there. As were Fourner-Beaudry & Sorensen.

 

[chapis]

These were my absolute 2 faves as well! I'm surprised I could like (or even love) a Don Quixote program, but it's really good one. Guignard & Fabbri were surely underscored.... they were flying out there. As were Fourner-Beaudry & Sorensen.

Agree. I think Antonio Najarro is the choreographer.

 

[nimi]

Kaliszek & Spodyriev, likewise, had their strongest FD performance thus far, IMO. So what do people think about calling them NatMak? Or another nickname? Perhaps they have one of their own? Natalia & Maxsym are such common skating names that they are hard to remember. And the last names are quite challenging from an English spelling perspective. The "sz" in her name: I've found it phonetically very tough to file away in my brain. And while I think I finally have it, I've noticed that a lot of people tend to avoid writing their names at all--probably because of the challenge of writing them. But we can't just keep referring to K&S as "the Poles" forever. Especially now that we are starting to see a second Polish team.

How about KaliSpo?

 

[PRlady]

I missed the Germans. I must be the only one to have a girl-crush on Kavita. I think she's sexy.

 

[chapis]

I missed the Germans. I must be the only one to have a girl-crush on Kavita. I think she's sexy.

I missed them too and she is truly so pretty.

 

[legjumper]

And lucky boy I doubt he would go now to the Olympics if he had instead teamed up with someone like Yanovskaya.

For sure. Sara and Kirill are the right ages for each other, the physical match is exceptionally good, there is real chemistry between them on the ice, and Sara's basic skating skills have improved a lot since moving to Moscow. If Kirill had found another Russian partner, he most likely would have ended up in a situation politically similar to himself with Monko (good but too many other favored teams ahead), or like that of Vlasenko with his new partner (trying to raise a junior to his level). Either way - no Olympics.

Yanovskaya found herself a same-age partner, from a country eager to give her citizenship, and with zero domestic competition. That's a pretty sweet deal. Lukacs will probably always be behind her in ability, but the trade-off is that Yanovskaya can probably be Queen of Hungary for the next two Olympic cycles and go to Euros and Worlds every season, and two Olympics. And, to Lukacs' credit, he has clearly been working his tail off to become a respectable partner for someone of Yanovskaya's caliber. I have been really impressed at how quickly this team has progressed over the past year. Good work by Team Svinin/Zhuk.

 

[Dobre]

I think you could say that Kaliszek & Spodyriev had a political edge in their favor here with a member on the technical panel (just as the Russians & teams that train in Russia had an edge); but K&S's scores are among the most clearly unified across the board within the entire field. One 11th place mark in the SD from the Hungarian judge, and the rest solidly top ten. No one else in the battle below Guignard & Fabbri can say the same.

K&S started off their season late after dealing with a summer injury. They had some rough outings & a fall on the twizzles at Skate Canada. Ultimately, you have to skate. I'll maintain my opinion that they had their best FD performance of the season here and have a right to be proud of it.


SD scores: http://skatingscores.com/2018/ec/dance/short/
FD scores: http://skatingscores.com/2018/ec/dance/long/

Yanovskaya found herself a same-age partner, from a country eager to give her citizenship, and with zero domestic competition. That's a pretty sweet deal. Lukacs will probably always be behind her in ability, but the trade-off is that Yanovskaya can probably be Queen of Hungary for the next two Olympic cycles and go to Euros and Worlds every season, and two Olympics.

Hard to predict the future, but of all the Russian junior dancers from this quadrennium, she is the one who made it to this year's Europeans in Moscow. There is something rather about that.

 

[Ka3sha]

@legjumper, absolutely agree with you! I was truly impressed with both teams at Euros this year.
I always liked Hurtado/Diaz and they were one of my fave teams but Sara has progressed tremendously since she moved to Moscow. Her edges, speed, basics improved a lot. Of course, Kirill has better SS and basics than Adria has ever had and it also helps a lot, but she did a great job herself!

When we saw Yanovskaya/Lukacs for the first time, I thought that it's a suicidal idea for Anna to team up with someone like Adam but they proved me wrong. Yep, she is still miles better than he, but Adam is also steadily improving. Sure, they won't win any medals at GP events or ISU championships but they may become an interesting and very decent european team.

I also know that there're some Russian fans who think that Russian Figure Skating Federation release skaters too easily but I'm really glad that both Yanovskaya and Khaliavin have chances to compete at Euros, Worlds and Olympics.

 

[chameleonster]

It's honestly kind of unfortunate that Yanovskaya/Lukacs teamed up so late last season. They have progressed so much since just Nebelhorn that I think a few more months together and they would be heading to the Olympics. When I first saw Y/L I thought they might wind up decent eventually, but I'm very impressed at how fast they've progressed.

I'm happy that Hurtado/Khaliavin had such a good competition and hope they can do as well at the Olympics. Securing two spots for Spain is great, and perhaps they can have skate offs at Euros for the world spot from now on.