The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

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Dobre

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Time to start a new thread! This is a general discussion thread for all things ice dance. A place where fans of all ice dance teams have the chance to discuss their favorite heart-stopping moments, tear-inducing mistakes, costly costume malfunctions, I-spy-the-new-rule in the ice dance handbook, and--you know--whatever else the ice dance world throws at us.

May we all survive the Olympic ice dance season. (Gosh, I am so nervous about half the competitions this year). And have a great time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYkACVDFmeg

Continue.
 
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Zazy

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Additionally, lifts with "wow" factor often get extra GoE from judges, and one way to do that is to push the lift difficulty beyond what's needed for level 4. It's a choice every team makes. It's like how the Shibs add the extra twizzle on, even though it doesn't give the extra points in base value.
I know it happens but perceived difficulty really shouldn't be affecting the GOE, that's where levels should come in.

The problem is that some level 4 lifts are a lot easier than others. I'm certainly not going to fault P/C for going for the easier ones, especially when they can get perfect scores for them. But if the ISU is reviewing COP after this season, one of the things to review would be how they assign lift levels. Just because perfectly equal difficulty is impossible, it doesn't mean the classification can't be improved.
 

Dobre

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I know it happens but perceived difficulty really shouldn't be affecting the GOE, that's where levels should come in.
Levels are completely inadequate to compare difficulty in dance right now. Almost all the junior teams are earning level 4s on their lifts, much less the senior teams. GOE has to pick up some of the slack. Yes, a greatly executed lift should be rewarded with GOE. But so SHOULD a blow-your-mind difficult lift. Or a GORGEOUS lift. Or a unique, original lift that makes you gasp.

In my humble opinion. Reward the teams that go the extra mile. Otherwise, everything starts to look like compulsories.
 
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wickedwitch

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I hope they don't narrow the definition for level 4. 98% of step sequences look identical because of the requirements; no need to do the same thing to more elements.
 

Zazy

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Levels are completely inadequate to compare difficulty in dance right now. Almost all the junior teams are earning level 4s on their lifts, much less the senior teams. GOE has to pick up some of the slack. Yes, a greatly executed lift should be rewarded with GOE. But so SHOULD a blow-your-mind difficult lift. Or a GORGEOUS lift. Or a unique, original lift that makes you gasp.

In my humble opinion. Reward the teams that go the extra mile. Otherwise, everything starts to look like compulsories.
Ok but that would mean the judges would be completely disregarding the rulebook. Surely that's not an ideal situation?

Also, with the GOE inflation nowadays, there isn't really room left to reward a difficult AND well-executed lift. P/C will, most likely, get perfect scores for their lifts by the end of the season. What if V/M then execute their difficult lifts very well? They can't get more than perfect so they will get no credit for the added difficulty. I don't even like lifts in ice dance, and would be happy if they were phased out entirely. But if you're going to give a large chunk of the technical score to lifts, there has to be a better way to score them.
 

starrynight

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Ok but that would mean the judges would be completely disregarding the rulebook. Surely that's not an ideal situation?

Also, with the GOE inflation nowadays, there isn't really room left to reward a difficult AND well-executed lift. P/C will, most likely, get perfect scores for their lifts by the end of the season. What if V/M then execute their difficult lifts very well? They can't get more than perfect so they will get no credit for the added difficulty. I don't even like lifts in ice dance, and would be happy if they were phased out entirely. But if you're going to give a large chunk of the technical score to lifts, there has to be a better way to score them.
Yes, because the *difficulty* factor only matters for obtaining the level - and really most lifts now are level 4s unless there's been some sort of mistake. Once the level is ticked off, it's just about execution ie all the key words of seamless, floating, flowing, relaxed, bold, effortless etc considered when assessing GOE.
 

Dobre

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Ok but that would mean the judges would be completely disregarding the rulebook. Surely that's not an ideal situation?
If we don't reward originality and extraordinary difficulty in any way via GOE, then I think there is no point in expanding the GOE to +5 or -5. (And it may be harmful in that it can result in more reputation judging). The problem right now isn't in rewarding perfectly executed lifts. The problem is that teams are maxing out on the difficulty. Increasing how many points are given to seamless/floating/flowing/effortless (these are all synonyms, IMO, and three of them are unnecessary) elements will only result in more of the same style of programs. This is a great quality for assessing some styles of dance, but it doesn't suit many styles of dance (cha cha, tango, Charleston, etc). Many Latin rhythms should incorporate sharp/quick/strong/rhythmic movement. Along with the slower, sultry rhumba look. The elements should suit the style of the dance performed.
 
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chapis

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and the trend is already beginning, I know that H/D have never had super difficult lifts, but this season especially in the free dance, they have the simplest lifts that I have seen them do.
 

MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
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I know it happens but perceived difficulty really shouldn't be affecting the GOE, that's where levels should come in.

The problem is that some level 4 lifts are a lot easier than others. I'm certainly not going to fault P/C for going for the easier ones, especially when they can get perfect scores for them. But if the ISU is reviewing COP after this season, one of the things to review would be how they assign lift levels. Just because perfectly equal difficulty is impossible, it doesn't mean the classification can't be improved.
THEY ARE NOT EASIER. That you THINK they are (and a bunch of other people) doesn't matter.
OMG I can't believe we're still hearing that nonsense for the 4th year in a row.

Because they're not big tricks doesn't mean they are easier. Or people would do them more, and none is even trying (well yeah, everyone managed to get their copy of the stationnary lift).
 

forthewin

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THEY ARE NOT EASIER. That you THINK they are (and a bunch of other people) doesn't matter.
OMG I can't believe we're still hearing that nonsense for the 4th year in a row.
And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.

I think many people agree that the technical requirements of ice dance has been lowered since P/C become WC. Not only lifts, but also dance holds. P/C has been pursuing the simpler route because it suits their skills and it's the "only true art".
 

thvudragon

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And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.
Accusing others of being condescending whilst you yourself are being condescending. The trend continues. :drama:

Edit: Also, MarieM is a huge V&M fan, so...
 

marbri

Hey, Kool-Aid!
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Where did this notion MarieM was some huge V/M fan come from? I ask as someone who has been around here since she was a moderator back in ancient times. She has always been a huge ice dance fanatic but I've seen this a few times lately and am perplexed :lol:
 

Anyasnake

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And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.

I think many people agree that the technical requirements of ice dance has been lowered since P/C become WC. Not only lifts, but also dance holds. P/C has been pursuing the simpler route because it suits their skills and it's the "only true art".
Oh my. You didn't even reply to in the other thread, and you keep repeating the same thing. Please, can we have some constructive criticism instead of accusing a team to go the "easier road" ? If I then tell you that P/C revolutionized Ice Dance you're going to get angry but this is basically what you are saying.

Please, I get you are a Virtue/Moir fan but there is no need to attack anyone else I swear. At the end it will all come down to who skates the best. It's (probably) their last season and I think you should enjoy them skating (as I do) for one last ride instead of attacking their competition.
 

thvudragon

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@marbri I’m sure she can speak for herself, but she was definitely part of the crowd here that was incredibly excited about V&M’s return. I think she gives honest takes and manages to be gushy but not sycophantic about skaters she likes.
 

forthewin

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Oh my. You didn't even reply to in the other thread, and you keep repeating the same thing. Please, can we have some constructive criticism instead of accusing a team to go the "easier road" ? If I then tell you that P/C revolutionized Ice Dance you're going to get angry but this is basically what you are saying.

Please, I get you are a Virtue/Moir fan but there is no need to attack anyone else I swear. At the end it will all come down to who skates the best. It's (probably) their last season and I think you should enjoy them skating (as I do) for one last ride instead of attacking their competition.
Seriously where did I attack anyone else? And stating anything other than singing praises of P/C has become unconstructive criticism? If you disagree with my comments, you can show me how P/C has not abandoned various dance holds or done out of the world lifts. But I doubt you can.
 

thvudragon

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Oh @forthewin , calling people condescending, insulting, and “inlogic” is somehow not an attack on other posters. The lack of self-awareness continues. :drama:
 

Areski

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And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.

I think many people agree that the technical requirements of ice dance has been lowered since P/C become WC. Not only lifts, but also dance holds. P/C has been pursuing the simpler route because it suits their skills and it's the "only true art".
You can't blame them though, I doubt those changed were carried on with this team in mind. I would like though difficulty to have more value too than it's now even if what looks simple is in fact difficult now but than one could draw conclusions that it bears no meaning as everything is difficult (as it is) in skating bar posing and arms flailing. We need changes in this system (requirements for lifts just to start with) but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
 

forthewin

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Oh @forthewin , calling people condescending, insulting, and “inlogic” is somehow not an attack on posters. The lack of self-awareness continues. :drama:
If what I point out is true, I don't see it's attacking. And I really don't wanna be lectured by someone who generalizes people and think all V/M fans are Canadian. Lol
 

Anyasnake

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Seriously where did I attack anyone else? And stating anything other than singing praises of P/C has become unconstructive criticism? If you disagree with my comments, you can show me how P/C has not abandoned various dance holds or done out of the world lifts. But I doubt you can.
I'm saying that you don't give any constructive criticism, I never said that not praising them was wrong, but I don't understand where you get that about everyone who seems to like them. Of course it's not perfect ad it needs polishing and so on, but calling P/C's fans on THIS forum condescending and for us to have illogic comments is uncalled for and comes across as rude. I'm sure we can talk about the teams we like without calling ourselves names, so let's not do this from now on.

1.It might be my imagination (kidding it's not) but I don't see to many differences between dance holds from one team to another in the FDs. Maybe you don't like it, but since none of them are doing a waltz, I think the amount of dance holds is perfectly acceptable. At least it's a cohesive dance. (Well actually I'm talking about pretty much everyone here).
2.As for the lifts, repeting myself here, but I prefer aesthetically pleasing lifts with a level 4, seamless and beautiful, than an 'out of this world' lift where I found myself thinking "how acrobatic". Moreover, this might be your definition of a great lift, but they have done some pretty "out of this world" lifts for me, by really melting them into the choreo (the first 2 lifts in the Build a home FD, the last 2 in the Mozart FD, the spread eagle one of last year's FD), it's just very beautiful and pleasing to watch. And it is difficult : the low position are not easy at all, you have to be very flexible, not all men can do it...
And making it look easy makes you grab points too, that's basically what Ice Dance is about.

EDIT : And I don't see every V/M's fan as Canadians, since I'm a V/M fan and not Canadian. I'm really not trying to pick a fight or whatever, I genuinely hate those fanwars/insults and I believe this is bad for the sport. And if you don't see it as attacking, I did a bit. I hope we can move on.
 

starrynight

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and the trend is already beginning, I know that H/D have never had super difficult lifts, but this season especially in the free dance, they have the simplest lifts that I have seen them do.
Perhaps we could talk about lift levels and GOE judging in the context of Hubbell and Donohue? The conversation above was very interesting until we got sidetracked by the usual V/M vs P/C :argue:. H/D train under the same coaches and adhere to the same style when doing their lifts.

Curve lift (level 4 - 5.85 points) : https://youtu.be/RJjXP78FrKM?t=2m45s
Straight line lift (level 4 - 5.70 points): https://youtu.be/RJjXP78FrKM?t=3m35s
Stationary lift (level 4 - 5.70 points): https://youtu.be/RJjXP78FrKM?t=3m48s

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2017/26189/results.html

As a side note, it's also actually quite interesting to look at base values for free dances. At Finlandia, P/C had a base value of 40.40, Betina Popova & Sergey Mozgov also had a base value of 40.40, the Great Britain team of Lilah Fear & Lewis Gibson actually had the highest base value of everyone with 40.90 -- but obviously the huge difference in GOE and PCS is what separated the teams out in the end results.

http://www.figureskatingresults.fi/results/1718/CSFIN2017/CSFIN2017_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf
 

GreenGan

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And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.

I think many people agree that the technical requirements of ice dance has been lowered since P/C become WC. Not only lifts, but also dance holds. P/C has been pursuing the simpler route because it suits their skills and it's the "only true art".
No, P/C didn't lower the technical requirement difficulty for a lift or for anything. They don't have such power. And 2010-2014 Ice dance is not very representative of Ice Dance anyway. (Which doesn't mean it wasn't great. Why do I feel the need to subtitle everything when I talk to you?)

When PC first became World champion in 2015, here were the lifts :
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=1m1s : difficult entry, lots of core strenght from Papadakis and great easyness throughout
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=3m35s : pretty much the same. Lots of core strenght to not move while just being hold by your legs and being able to express the pain at the same time.
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=4m18s last lift with choregraphic spin. 2 positions, good coverage and speed of rotation.

Easy lifts ever since P/C are Worlds Champions ? No. Do you want me to do the same things for their 2016 FD ? The "easy lift" came later, I'd say 2017 when people saw that H/D curve lift was a level 4 in their 2016's SD. Requirement lowered ? Again, this is wrong. Just no need to add difficulty to make sure you'd get a level 4 when you just need to follow the book.

Also, dance holds. Here is D/W free dance in 2014 :
First step sequence : https://youtu.be/lrFwokp3z48?t=1m22s (beginning at Meryl's first twizzle)
Now V/M first step sequence this year : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZusQqrTijc&feature=youtu.be&t=1m41s
And P/C : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBqx8-N22ZQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1m21s

Now you can compare the close holds and the open holds. Yes the trend is for something more open. Not by much though, and you can see how it didn't put an impact on the intricacy, now skater are constantly moving around the other. But the speed and the deep edges show more now. At least that's what I saw as a non skater viewer.
(I wish I could add the shibs'FD to it. I remember they had lots of close hold, but maybe I'm wrong..?)
Actually I wonder how other people would analyze the difference in the step sequence. What do you prefer ?

We should also note that this is the beginning of the season, whereas D/W were at the Olympics. There will probably be change in choreography to make it more difficult.
 

skategal

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As a side note, it's also actually quite interesting to look at base values for free dances. At Finlandia, P/C had a base value of 40.40, Betina Popova & Sergey Mozgov also had a base value of 40.40, the Great Britain team of Lilah Fear & Lewis Gibson actually had the highest base value of everyone with 40.90 -- but obviously the huge difference in GOE and PCS is what separated the teams out in the end results.

http://www.figureskatingresults.fi/results/1718/CSFIN2017/CSFIN2017_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf
This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing. :)

I will try and find a video of the GB Team to have a look at them.
 

thvudragon

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If what I point out is true, I don't see it's attacking. And I really don't wanna be lectured by someone who generalizes people and think all V/M fans are Canadian. Lol
https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

I'd love you to quote me where I said "all V&M fans are Canadian." I'm a V&M fan, and certainly not Canadian. Also, the terms "fans" and "ubers" cannot be used interchangeably, but of course, you knew that. :drama:
 

starrynight

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When PC first became World champion in 2015, here were the lifts :
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=1m1s : difficult entry, lots of core strenght from Papadakis and great easyness throughout
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=3m35s : pretty much the same. Lots of core strenght to not move while just being hold by your legs and being able to express the pain at the same time.
https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=4m18s last lift with choregraphic spin. 2 positions, good coverage and speed of rotation.

Easy lifts ever since P/C are Worlds Champions ? No. Do you want me to do the same things for their 2016 FD ? The "easy lift" came later, I'd say 2017 when people saw that H/D curve lift was a level 4 in their 2016's SD. Requirement lowered ? Again, this is wrong. Just no need to add difficulty to make sure you'd get a level 4 when you just need to follow the book..
It's quite fascinating to watch this from 2015 and compare with the present. Of course it's a rule book thing (teams wouldn't be winning with lifts if the rule book didn't support it). But interesting to see how the lifts ice dance teams are using have changed over the course of the quad.

It's interesting to watch the 2017 variation of the first 2015 FD lift:

2015: https://youtu.be/d5eCJWdsW_A?t=1m1s
2017: https://youtu.be/JAfNPWDIl8c?t=2m54s

I would say the original 2015 lift is quite a lot more difficult than the 2017 lift. Indeed, all the 2015 lifts are a lot more difficult. Which takes us back to the discussion about what the rules actually reward these days.
 
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Isabelle.G

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And what you think matters because? Gosh, I can't stand P/C fans' condescending and inlogic comments.

I think many people agree that the technical requirements of ice dance has been lowered since P/C become WC. Not only lifts, but also dance holds. P/C has been pursuing the simpler route because it suits their skills and it's the "only true art".
Seriously, calm down. I think I've already mentioned this - but both teams have different preferences, they want to express different things on the ice. That goes hand in hand with the choreo and lifts are its part. Concerning the problem of lifts of P/C - even Tessa herself said they admire the way they execute the elements and how it's all seamlessly done. https://youtu.be/OHTzVB1rR9Y?t=616

And fans are the same, some prefer V/M, some P/C. I see your point about the difficulty, but calling some members here illogical won't fix that issue. It'd be more useful to write to ISU. And also add the fact that scores/medals should be awarded by the actual skating performances, not by the nationality of the skaters or by some kind of politicking in the background.

And for the record, there are people who like both teams equally. I'm one of them. And it really isn't a very difficult thing to do. ;)
 

sap5

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If we don't reward originality and extraordinary difficulty in any way via GOE, then I think there is no point in expanding the GOE to +5 or -5. (And it may be harmful in that it can result in more reputation judging). The problem right now isn't in rewarding perfectly executed lifts. The problem is that teams are maxing out on the difficulty. Increasing how many points are given to seamless/floating/flowing/effortless (these are all synonyms, IMO, and three of them are unnecessary) elements will only result in more of the same style of programs. This is a great quality for assessing some styles of dance, but it doesn't suit many styles of dance (cha cha, tango, Charleston, etc). Many Latin rhythms should incorporate sharp/quick/strong/rhythmic movement. Along with the slower, sultry rhumba look. The elements should suit the style of the dance performed.
I think the discussion regarding lifts is far too focused. The lift should fit into the overall context of a program; it's the program that should dictate whether a lift looks "simple" or "complex" (keeping in mind that simple lifts can actually be complex, etc.)

The real issue for me is that there is no incentive for a team, or a single skater, to take creative risks and push boundaries, because so long as you're clean on the elements, a team/skater that takes the risk is scored the same as a team/skater that doesn't.
 
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MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
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Where did this notion MarieM was some huge V/M fan come from? I ask as someone who has been around here since she was a moderator back in ancient times. She has always been a huge ice dance fanatic but I've seen this a few times lately and am perplexed :lol:
Because I kind of am (although I would rather not be a fan of any teams BTW).

P&C and V&M represent both sides of the coin of Ice Dancing to me.
V&M have some of the best skating skills I have ever witnessed in Ice dance. Of course I am somewhat not pleased with their programs, because they could do so much more in my mind. The fact that they're doing (even if it's just half a FD) something I've longed them to do (a tango of course) pleases me to death.
But I am also not too happy about their programs this season. Because I feel like it's not fully cooked yet. Because I'd have loved them to go full tango in the FD (a prince like FD on a tango) and more classic in the SD. Because I had expectations that are not met. But hey, by january, I'll have changed my mind as usual :D

P&C are another side. I focus less on their technic, it's the wholeness of their FD that I like. The fact that everything is there to bring the program to life, and not a succession of elements. If I do focus on their technic, it's top notch. They're not at V&M's level yet on some points being younger, on others, they are better.
Still I am not pleased with how they treat SDs in general or that they are only focusing on one style (even if it's not the same, but almost the same). They feel and make me feel their program. But that's a very "european" vision of Ice dance, I know it's not something a NA team would do "naturally".
They are also the first IMO to bring back choreography in the front of ice dance.

Ice dance is a cycle always going back and forth between technic or choreography. So I know that in 4 years we'll be back to technic only and no more choreography. But I prefer the latter.

Still I do enjoy both teams equally and my heart wishes both could win the same medal because IMO, they are what's best in ice dance.
 
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