The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[muffinplus]

I think a lot of it boils down to reputation (or the lack of it). If they were more established, the SD performance they delivered today might have scored in the high 60s. In H/K's case, (1) they don't have a track record of scoring higher than this, (2) this is only their second season together and only their 7th international outing overall (three of which have been Senior B events), (3) it's not clear which team is the Spanish #1, and (4) they are not Zhulin's top team or priority. If they continue to skate well, their PCS will rise. At last year's Euros, their PCS went from high-6s to low/mid-7s between SD and FD just because they had no prior reputation (i.e., baseline for marks). Today their SD PCS were starting to creep into the 8s. If they skate well tomorrow, they could see another increase. Generally, judges don't like to give out high marks if they're not sure a skater/team is "normally" that kind of skater/team. So skaters have to prove themselves over time, or as it is commonly referred to, "gain reputation."

In addition to gaining reputation, it just takes teams time to gain the experience and the comfort of skating together. That comfort/ease/confidence contributes to PCS as well.

I feel pretty confident that if H/K were more established, the SD performance they delivered today might have scored in the upper 60s, not mid-60s.

It sucks that one big reason someone can score low or high a lot of the time is "reputation judging". I mean, of course, we all know it, but still...they are a talented team, hopefully they move up

 

[Dobre]

Hurtado & Khaliavin skated well, scored very well, and placed very well. The short is not their better program, IMO. It doesn't have much of a Latin or a unique feel. But they skated it solidly. That's what they needed.

Last year they placed 13th at Europeans in the SD. They are currently sitting in 7th, which is probably a spot higher than even the most optimistic of us were predicting. (They are still wildcards at this stage of their partnership). In any case, they scored quite close to their SB from Golden Spin but in a much tougher event with a far deeper field. It's an excellent result for them, one that it shouldn't be taken for granted will hold up. But, personally, I like their FD better; and if they can perform another clean set of twizzles, they could do very well again.

Stepanova & Bukin put out a great skate today! 'Twas fabulous.

IMO, Bobrova & Soloviev and Cappellini & Lanotte have the better FDs. But S&B have a great short and get to skate at home. The free will be interesting.

Ivan has such a positive attitude whenever they skate. It's always fun to see him in the kiss & cry, and it was fun to see Bestemianova on camera cheering for this kid she has probably watched grow up.

 

[clairecloutier]

Hurtado & Khaliavin skated well, scored very well, and placed very well. The short is not their better program, IMO. It doesn't have much of a Latin or a unique feel. But they skated it solidly. That's what they needed.

I disagree about Hurtado/Khaliavin’s SD. For me, it’s actually one of my favorites of the season, I really like the interpretation and their feel for the rhythm, for me it’s one of the more distinctive SDs this season. They were great yesterday, I’m glad they scored well.

 

[Miloune]

TES low for the italians.... bob/sol for the podium !

edit : Sorry wrong thread!

 

[Anyasnake]

Well, I guess that we were wrong about Russian #1 and #2. B/S silver and S/B bronze.

 

[firstflight]

TES low for the italians.... bob/sol for the podium !

edit : Sorry wrong thread!

Lots of interesting scores to take apart here in the FD.
1) Even with the silver, B/S *skating on home ice* still aren’t exactly being set up to be favorites for Olympic bronze. All three American teams have beaten that FD score in the GP series, and a clean S/S have far outpaced this total score this season. I was expecting a 114-ish total actually.

2) C/L PCS behind S/B! Their performance today gave every reason to put them out of the medals, but the PCS ranking on top of the TES is interesting.

3) Awfully low base score for C/B- only a 36.4. PCS still above G/F, so the levels killed them.

4) Huge PCS range for Z/G- Judge 8 really not feeling them. 6.75 to 9.00 in marks. Judge 8 loved B-F/S though, with 9.00’s to them.

5) H/K must be pleased with their placement here— that’s momentum now heading to the Olympics.

6) Real separation between two French teams in the FD— PCS order flipped too from the SD.

 

[Lara111]

I just thought that 6.75 range for Z/G was right. His skating just not there yet for me. No flow, not free... I liked her t skating though.

 

[chapis]

I disagree about Hurtado/Khaliavin’s SD. For me, it’s actually one of my favorites of the season, I really like the interpretation and their feel for the rhythm, for me it’s one of the more distinctive SDs this season. They were great yesterday, I’m glad they scored well.

onesH

Honestly, Sara is the kind of skater who can sell anything, the program is enough latin, modern latin, and you are right, a distinctive SD.

And they were invited to perform at the Gala

 

[ninalovesskating]

I love Penny. The girl is a fighter but IMO, Hurtado/Khaliavin should be ahead of Coomes/Buckland today after those mistakes.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, it looks like ice dance is going to be incredibly predictable in Pyeongchang like it is every Olympics. P/C are going to win gold (being set up as this generation’s T/D with all tens and +3s) with V/M winning silver and whichever American team the caller decides to be nice to and has enough judges to give the GOEs and PCS required will win bronze. Maybe a Russian team (whether the internally preferred team of S/B or journeyman team like B/S will be pitied is another question) will sneak in there because what would figure skating be if Russians didn’t make things like that happen? C/L may have a chance but most likely they’re waiting for Milan to give them a going away present. It’s not as if they’re so eager to reward them anyway. They care more about setting up S/B to be potential gold medal contenders in 2022.

We could all probably easily predict the scores too, but I’m sure the PBPs will contain a heavy amount of posts of people feigning surprise and shock over results and scores and such.

 

[Bigbird]

B/S threatened to continue. They don't plan to retire just take a break. Can you imagine it? For the next four years, we'll have B/S, S/B and S/K. I think I'm going to go ball somewhere.

 

[MarieM]

What Russia needs IMO is a fight at the top like in the USA. To push them to work more and progress.
Step&Bukin should have been pushed way more, maybe with outside technical help. The packaging is a load better than before but they could do so much more if only she could push her edges more.

 

[Zazy]

Well, it looks like ice dance is going to be incredibly predictable in Pyeongchang like it is every Olympics. P/C are going to win gold (being set up as this generation’s T/D with all tens and +3s) with V/M winning silver and whichever American team the caller decides to be nice to and has enough judges to give the GOEs and PCS required will win bronze. Maybe a Russian team (whether the internally preferred team of S/B or journeyman team like B/S will be pitied is another question) will sneak in there because what would figure skating be if Russians didn’t make things like that happen? C/L may have a chance but most likely they’re waiting for Milan to give them a going away present. It’s not as if they’re so eager to reward them anyway. They care more about setting up S/B to be potential gold medal contenders in 2022.

We could all probably easily predict the scores too, but I’m sure the PBPs will contain a heavy amount of posts of people feigning surprise and shock over results and scores and such.

The problem with P/C's scores is that they're so close to perfection that they leave no room for V/M, were they to skate after them and have a great skate. The overscoring in all disciplines is ridiculous this year but ice dance is the only one where there's no room above the favourites for anyone else. And yes, this was Euros where P/C were clearly better than the rest of the field, but the GPF scoring was almost as generous.

 

[sap5]

The problem with P/C's scores is that they're so close to perfection that they leave no room for V/M, were they to skate after them and have a great skate.

I think the judges are saying there's no need to leave room at the top.

 

[firstflight]

Well, it looks like ice dance is going to be incredibly predictable in Pyeongchang like it is every Olympics. P/C are going to win gold (being set up as this generation’s T/D with all tens and +3s) with V/M winning silver and whichever American team the caller decides to be nice to and has enough judges to give the GOEs and PCS required will win bronze. Maybe a Russian team (whether the internally preferred team of S/B or journeyman team like B/S will be pitied is another question) will sneak in there because what would figure skating be if Russians didn’t make things like that happen? C/L may have a chance but most likely they’re waiting for Milan to give them a going away present. It’s not as if they’re so eager to reward them anyway. They care more about setting up S/B to be potential gold medal contenders in 2022.

We could all probably easily predict the scores too, but I’m sure the PBPs will contain a heavy amount of posts of people feigning surprise and shock over results and scores and such.

All that for the bronze actually doesn't sound too predictable to me

I actually don't think it's just going to come down to the judging for the bronze. All three American teams have made at least one significant error in the FD in the past two seasons. I think one or even two of them are going to take themselves out of the running for bronze before the FD ends. (I also think Weaver/Poje still have a distinct shot at bronze in addition to the ones you listed.)

 

[mollymgr]

All of them still have to show up and skate.

 

[VGThuy]

V/M and P/C can fall and get a level 2 step sequence and still place 1 and 2 in Pyeongchang.

 

[Lara111]

V/M and P/C can fall and get a level 2 step sequence and still place 1 and 2 in Pyeongchang.

Beauty of ''body of work'' e.g. subjectivity in ice dance

 

[sap5]

Beauty of ''body of work'' e.g. subjectivity in ice dance

I think it's more about skating/performance skills + skating programs the judges like (definitely the case with PC) than it is body of work. But yes, in a subjective sport, it's best to show what the judges like if you want to win.

 

[Lara111]

I think it's more about skating/performance skills + skating programs the judges like (definitely the case with PC) than it is body of work. But yes, in a subjective sport, it's best to show what the judges like if you want to win.

Skating skills mark is very subjective too

 

[wickedwitch]

The problem with P/C's scores is that they're so close to perfection that they leave no room for V/M, were they to skate after them and have a great skate. The overscoring in all disciplines is ridiculous this year but ice dance is the only one where there's no room above the favourites for anyone else. And yes, this was Euros where P/C were clearly better than the rest of the field, but the GPF scoring was almost as generous.

A perfect example is how any SD this year has gotten a higher score than V/M's from last season. P/C and V/M both have solid SDs, but neither comes close to the brilliance of V/M's Prince program. And yet, they get higher PCS for them.

 

[topaz]

Well, it looks like ice dance is going to be incredibly predictable in Pyeongchang like it is every Olympics. P/C are going to win gold (being set up as this generation’s T/D with all tens and +3s) with V/M winning silver and whichever American team the caller decides to be nice to and has enough judges to give the GOEs and PCS required will win bronze. Maybe a Russian team (whether the internally preferred team of S/B or journeyman team like B/S will be pitied is another question) will sneak in there because what would figure skating be if Russians didn’t make things like that happen? C/L may have a chance but most likely they’re waiting for Milan to give them a going away present. It’s not as if they’re so eager to reward them anyway. They care more about setting up S/B to be potential gold medal contenders in 2022.

We could all probably easily predict the scores too, but I’m sure the PBPs will contain a heavy amount of posts of people feigning surprise and shock over results and scores and such.

Well I have no problem with P/C being crowned their generation's T/D. Gabby and Guilliaume are 22 and 23 years of age. Their career is just starting and their ability is already entering into legendary status, in my opinion. I was never much of a fan of V/M's programs until recently but their talent/ability is undeniable as legendary too. Moonight Sonata is exceptional in my opinion. If P/C get all level 4 elements and skate the program like they did at GPF, they'll be unbeatable and rightfully so in my opinion. It's going to come to down to levels for the race for gold and silver and bronze.

I think P/C are going to stay for the cycle and I am anxious to see how the develop over the next
4 years.


S/B to be potential 2022 is a little to much at this time. S/B have a better SD than B/S and B/S have a comparable FD. It came down to levels and GOE for silver/bronze medalist at euros.

C/L did not skate well here and for me they are FINALLY being marked accordingly for skating ablitity. Their performance level was lacking too, especially in the free dance.

 

[topaz]

A perfect example is how any SD this year has gotten a higher score than V/M's from last season. P/C and V/M both have solid SDs, but neither comes close to the brilliance of V/M's Prince program. And yet, they get higher PCS for them.

I was not a fan of Prince program because there was NOTHING hip hip about it.

Anyway, the difference in scores is only slightly different on the GOE on some elements and pcs. I do think this season's SD for V/M they have performed some elements better like twizzles and pattern steps sections are being scored higher this year. I think the twizzles are definitely better than the last season overall. Their pcs score is only .30 or .40 better than last year's score. That's not much. 2017 Worlds vs 2017 Skate Canada score in pcs is difference of .08 in pcs score total.

I am not understanding why you think the pcs should be less for the V/M SD this season compared to last season. Both programs are constructed very well. The elements and the performance level has been comparable.

 

[topaz]

The problem with P/C's scores is that they're so close to perfection that they leave no room for V/M, were they to skate after them and have a great skate. The overscoring in all disciplines is ridiculous this year but ice dance is the only one where there's no room above the favourites for anyone else. And yes, this was Euros where P/C were clearly better than the rest of the field, but the GPF scoring was almost as generous.

And the same situation was what P/C were in last season. You have to judge the skaters on the program they skate on that date. We should not be "leaving" room for another to score points.

Now next season if they change scoring system which they will, then the different grades of GOE come more into play.

 

[Zazy]

And the same situation was what P/C were in last season. You have to judge the skaters on the program they skate on that date. We should not be "leaving" room for another to score points.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Scores were too high last year as well but V/M never got perfect scores for multiple elements and pcs categories.

And I definitely think no skater should be getting perfect scores (or incredibly close to them). You can point to any figure skating performance in history and it can always be better. I can maybe see how the rare technical element that's absolutely amazing can get all +3s but nearly all of them? And perfect interpretation? perfect performance?

This isn't a question of artificially keeping P/C's scores down to "leave room" for later skaters. It's that P/C's scores are so inflated (I'm sure even their biggest fans would admit that they have room to grow) that a) they have nowhere to go with their scores, other than achieving a few more level 4s - there's nothing they could improve, according to the judges; and b) if V/M were 2nd in the SD by a relatively small margin, they could have the performance of the century in the FD and still not make up the gap, because there'd only be about 1/2 a point or so between P/C's score and a perfect score. Obviously there's also levels to take into account but still, that's a highly problematic situation, no matter the skaters involved.

Also, as an aside, I hate Moulin Rouge with the power of a thousand suns and don't like V/M's FD; P/C's program is much more enjoyable to me. However, subjective likes and dislikes should, as much as possible, not cloud our evaluation of what is meant to be a sport. And from that perspective, I'll admit I don't see where P/C are superior. They have great strengths but also great weaknesses, and with they way they're being scored they have zero incentive to work on their weaknesses. That's a great disservice to them, in the long run. And to us as fans, who could miss out on seeing a P/C team that has fully realized their great potential.

 

[sap5]

Nvm.

 

[starrynight]

I think the reason everything is getting very enthusiastic this season is that the judges know there is the upcoming change to +/- 5 GOE. So that way they are not in a position where the scores have totally maxed out and this is it for high scores.

So next season, they will just push up the GOE to +4/+5 to allow there to be more room for even higher scores if that's what they choose to do.

 

[millyskate]

People are always wanting more but sometimes, it’s good to recognize when a team achieves the best of what can be expected in a given system, at a given time. Should P/C retire tomorrow, they will still have made a mark on the history of ice dance. They have taken the discipline in a direction not everyone likes. But their performances have created timeless moments of breathtakingly beauty. They’re not doing the most difficult version of everything but everything works in harmony together. How often do such performances come along? Surely, if ever there was a time for top scores, it is now.

 

[sap5]

My issue with that program is the music is edited to minimize the faster parts of the music, and those faster parts are dealt with almost entirely with spins. Those are the things that throw me out of the program every time. So I don't believe this is the best program and skating that can be created and performed under the system in this style. But I do believe this is an excellent program.

 

[kittysk8ts]

My issue with that program is the music is edited to minimize the faster parts of the music, and those faster parts are dealt with almost entirely with spins. Those are the things that throw me out of the program every time.

Interesting. Truly These are the program highlights for me. I love their opening moves and mood in this program, but the music change on the stationary lift and then into the spin is where I really start to feel something. So, do you mean the faster music itself has been slowed down or do you mean there is less of the faster music? Haha. Sorry, not enough coffee this morning.