U.S. Ladies [#20]: In a Week, Maybe Two, They'll Make You a Star

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I do wish they would not put the height of the skater in the headline (or anywhere, really.) I can’t remember when they have put the height of a male skater in a headline. Skaters come in all sizes and can be successful at all sizes. Commenting on size is just not appropriate.
 
Kudos also to the new U.S. Novice Ladies champion, Beverly Zhu, 15, who skated an elegant program to Miss Saigon earlier today and landed 6 triples cleanly in her FS: 3F+3T, 3S+1Lo(half loop)+2F, 3Lo+2A sequence, 3Lo, 3S & 2A. She also received level 4 for all 3 spins and her footwork. She won by 35(!) points (54.91 SP, 112.78 FS, 167.69 total).

Re-posting what I wrote about Zhu in the 2018 U.S. Nationals forum in the Kiss & Cry section:
She placed the "dreaded 5th" at her Sectional (Pacific Coast) so was the 1st alternate in Novice for her section last year. I'm glad her coaches, Derrick Delmore and Ivan Dinev, decided to keep her in Novice this season -- it gave her time to add a triple-triple to her repertoire and not rush adding the 3Lz into her programs yet. I've been watching her all season and she's had the usual ups and downs, very good skates alternating with inconsistent ones. Zhu really "saved her best for last" at Nationals, which is exciting for us watching and for her and her coaches, I'm sure. :)
 
I do wish they would not put the height of the skater in the headline (or anywhere, really.) I can’t remember when they have put the height of a male skater in a headline. Skaters come in all sizes and can be successful at all sizes. Commenting on size is just not appropriate.
I do remember Evan Lysacek's height being discussed. Nicolas Nadeau as well. Maybe not in a headline. IMO it's just to emphasize how young she is. She'll almost certainly grow taller.
 
They still put height and weight of tennis players, baseball players, etc on TV screen during games.
In tennis? What networks? Because I've never once seen that watching a lot of tennis the past few years. Height sometimes, especially for a player that's very tall, but never weight.
 
I'm old enough to remember when they posted female gymnasts' height AND WEIGHT on the TV screen during competitions. Height doesn't seem like such a big deal.

Me too-I am the same age as Shannon Miller and I remember the tv showing she was like 75 lbs at 15 years old.
 
Oh yeah. They have that in hockey too. I just meant I've never seen in highlighted in broadcasts
Usually only see it at the beginning of a match when they do the player introductions. It is usually one of the details that get thrown in with record, ranking, previous matches in the tournament etc.,- easy to miss and ignore. The weight figure, in particular never seems to change from year to year, even when it's obvious that a particular athlete has put on muscle or slimmed down.
 
Oh please! They've got it in for Ashley, but held up Karen for a similar error because Karen is defending champion?! :rolleyes: Ladies with rep got the pass for mistakes overall (including Karen and Mariah. Ashley though was punished and placed behind Angela Wang). Starr Andrews was low-balled skating early and being kept behind Polina. Also weird how Starr with her great presentation skills was low-balled so heavily on PCS! Starr behind Hannah Miller on PCS??!!! Wang did not skate that much better than Polina and Starr, but you wouldn't know it from the scores.

Amber Glenn was quite lovely and should have been close to Wang without the fall. But without rep and with the fall, they had to put Glenn behind Starr, or else!!! Just an example of pitiful political judging and massaging scores.
 
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Starr Andrews was low-balled skating early and being kept behind Polina. Also weird how Starr with her great presentations skills was low-balled so heavily on PCS! Starr behind Hannah Miller on PCS??!!!

I absolutely LOVE Starr, she is so refreshing in a sometimes snoozy US ladies field, and always attacks everything. But her basics are noticeably weaker than Miller and Edmunds. The performance is there, but the skating skills are not. And I think judges, particularly US judges, closely tie all PCS to skating skills.

Wang did not skate that much better than Polina and Starr, but you wouldn't know it from the scores.

I think Wang has better PCS than both. 3 out 4 times, Polina's 3t gets called < by an international panel.

I didn't find anything egregious about the placements or scoring. Let's see. I could argue Nagasu to be marginally first with Tennell's over-inflated PCS. I guess I would have had Glenn marginally above both Edmunds and Andrews.\, she had fantastic quality on 6 elements and good basics. As for Wagner, I would have gone higher on PCS for sure, but << on the 3toe, so that's a wash. :)

Thought it was a fairly well-judged event.
 
Actually @alchemy void, without the fall, as I said, Amber Glenn is clearly a lovely skater and she would certainly have been ahead of Polina and Starr. And it could be argued that she should still have been ahead even with the fall. I think the problem is that Amber doesn't have enough solid reputation competitively. She's another skater who needs a confidence boost with her blazing talent! While Hannah should score higher on some PCS categories over Starr, I would have Starr higher on others, including interpretation. Of course, Starr has areas of her skating to improve upon, but IMO, it's just like with James/Cipres, the nitpicking becomes rampant at times for certain skaters, no matter what.

Everyone can believe as they will and see what they see. The judging is always political. Mariah, Karen and Ashley have reputation and good quality skills, so with mistakes they aren't taken down too far in the scoring. Still, Ashley was punished in being placed behind Angela, while Karen was given the gift of being placed ahead of Angela. With her save on the loop, Starr was more harshly judged, without even a step-out or anything. It was a good save with no foot down and no turn-out. The 62+ was a lowball score for that effort. I would have had Starr at least 64+ with Polina slightly ahead of that or slightly behind, especially with Angela Wang at 67. Yes Angela has lovely skating skills and she performs well. She's previously seemed to lack self-belief in big moments, which has been why she's had a difficult time breaking through. I've actually seen Angela perform that well before and be low-balled at Nationals, so it all depends on politics and the weather. ;) Now with her friend Ryan Bradley coaching her and helping her to relax, Angela's done well this season. It definitely helps that Ryan is coaching Angela because he's well-connected and well-liked. I simply feel that Karen should be behind Angela, especially if Ashley is behind Angela.

Based on how the scoring was going, I wasn't surprised to see where Mariah ended up. I predicted it, as she is a talented skater and she also has good rep, so the similar mistake that Ashley and Karen had on their combo jumps, also kept Mariah in middling range contention above Polina and Starr, but behind Angela. Polina hasn't skated well all season, so it was nice to see her keep it together here. But I can't see Polina getting all the way back to top form. She's also battling a changed body (she's much taller and more filled out, and it doesn't help that she never had great speed). What Polina has always had though is loads of confidence.

That's why I like Bradie, and I hope she can continue to show confidence under pressure. That's what U.S. ladies have been lacking for far too long. While Ashley always has had confidence, I think she's often faltered on the basis of poor technical training earlier on in her career, and having to work harder to excel, since her best asset is her chutzpah rather than a stellar arsenal of jumps and spins. Bradie has great jumps and consistency. And now that she's healthy, she's been having good competitive results. Skate America was a great opportunity for Bradie, and she grabbed it. And in her sp at Nats, Bradie managed her nerves well. That's what these ladies need to do. Get rid of the self-doubts and the hesitation and nerves in big moments. For some of these ladies, it's taken years. They need to step up when the opportunities are there for the taking, and stop settling for just good enough, or being held up by the judges sometimes.

Applause for Mirai. Finally, the fed may put her on another Olympic team, as long as she maintains confidence and fully rotated jumps in the fp. I do think Mirai should have landed the 3-axel. Everyone knows she can do it. She hesitated slightly going into it, and that was her problem. I've seen her also sometimes go too hard into the jump. She needs to relax and attack just right. Somebody's got to do it. :drama:

Unfortunately, I don't trust Karen. I was so gung-ho on her doing well this season, and she's just been disappointing. Why couldn't she have just kept her On Golden Pond sp from the get-go, and then concentrate on someone helping her get a more outstanding fp, instead of those constant program changes and the distraction of writing a book?! Well anyway, with this scoring set-up, it shows what the fed feels they want politically. The question is whether they will dump Mirai again for Ashley? :p ;) Just Kidding ... I hope not! Would they dump Karen for Ashley? If Bradie performs the way she can, they sure ain't gonna dump Bradie for Ashley, eh! Best case scenario: Maybe Karen will under-perform and Ashley will skate lights out with La La Land. :shuffle: Of course, they could both perform well and make it difficult for the judges. But there are only 3 spots for the Olympic team.
 
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My mother (who doesn't follow skating) was really impressed with Amber. I agree that if she's able to get those jumps down I think she can be a contender.

I don't agree that Starr's basics are worse than Polina's, but I did think she was lacking something. Maybe because she's so tiny? I don't know, I just wasn't feeling it tonight. I also didn't really like Beyonce's rendition of Fever, so that may be part of it. I also noticed with her as opposed to the other ladies (we were far up) that she didn't fill the rink as well as those that got ahead of her. I think as Starr grows she'll fix that problem. She also needs to learn make-up from Ashley - somehow Ashley's facial expressions were visible from the rafters due to her eye makeup and lipstick!

I hope this event will discourage Juniors from moving up too soon - there were so many unfortunate falls and those skaters were judged more harshly than some of the more seasoned Seniors (much more than some other years). TBH with how some of the Junior ladies are looking, I wonder if they helped or hurt their cause by moving up to Senior - I think Starr's the only one holding her own, and even then she's down in 8th.
 
I think Starr's the only one holding her own, and even then she's down in 8th.

Starr performed quite well enough with these experienced senior ladiezzz to be higher than 8th, and that's a fact! Let the nitpicking continue in order to justify the way the wind blows politically. :watch:

Oh well, skaters learn quite early I would imagine how to hold their heads up high and show what they can do when they are determined and confident, regardless of judges' scores and over-managed placements.
 
Starr performed quite well enough with these experienced senior ladiezzz to be higher than 8th, and that's a fact! Let the nitpicking continue in order to justify the way the wind blows politically. :watch:

Oh well, skaters learn quite early I would imagine how to hold their heads up high and show what they can do when they are determined and confident, regardless of judges' scores and over-managed placements.
Starr is very talented but she is not superior to the other skaters in front of her. She is a stunner, my entire area all liked her but my spouse even noticed that she was not covering the ice like the other skaters. The loop was severely tilted and there is no way it deserved +GOE, she only lost .4 off the jump.
 
Starr is very talented but she is not superior to the other skaters in front of her. She is a stunner, my entire area all liked her but my spouse even noticed that she was not covering the ice like the other skaters. The loop was severely tilted and there is no way it deserved +GOE, she only lost .4 off the jump.

Yeah well, I still say Starr deserved higher than 62+ for how well she performed (perhaps a couple of points higher, but skating early tends to keep scores down for some skaters). Starr has previously scored as high as 66+ for that program. Anyway, they're keeping Starr where they want her to be positioned for whatever reason, the same as they tend to do for the entire field. There's a lot could be nitpicked too about the young Polina lacking thus and so back in 2014, but my oh my, she was over-scored and made the Olympic team. And in Polina's case, it was good fortune, since she's unlikely to make the team this year. Back in 2014, Mirai was still very much on the outs with U.S. fed, while Gracie was on the rise and Polina was being oohed and aahed over. Ashley, as usual with her roller coaster career, was being harshly judged at the same time she was also largely taken for granted.

LOL, Star's loop was not that 'severely' tilted. She saved the jump exceedingly well. For some skaters, the judges would have given more points on that. But for some skaters, it's very important to find fault with every weakness and performance flaw, and for fans to find justification for judges' decisions. It is what it is. :COP:

Someone mentioned Ashley being dinged for an under-rotation. So was Karen. Also at last year's Nationals, Ashley skated quite well and the championship could have gone to either Ashley or Karen. The fed apparently decided to take a chance that Karen was finally coming into her own. Karen hiccoughed at 4CCs, but then came through better at Worlds, although with mistakes which kept her just off the podium. This fall, Karen seemed to be coming on strong and confident, but it was just an illusion.

I'm making observations as an interested but fairly detached fan. I'm not as captivated by the ladies these days as I am by the other disciplines.
 
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Yeah well, I still say Starr deserved higher than 62+ for how well she performed (perhaps a couple of points higher, but skating early tends to keep scores down for some skaters). Starr has previously scored as high as 66+ for that program. Anyway, they're keeping Starr where they want her to be positioned for whatever reason, the same as they tend to do for the entire field. There's a lot could be nitpicked too about the young Polina lacking thus and so back in 2014, but my oh my, she was over-scored and made the Olympic team. And in Polina's case, it was good fortune, since she's unlikely to make the team this year. Back in 2014, Mirai was still very much on the outs with U.S. fed, while Gracie was on the rise and Polina was being oohed and aahed over. Ashley, as usual with her roller coaster career, was being harshly judged at the same time she was also largely taken for granted.

LOL, Star's loop was not that 'severely' tilted. She saved the jump exceedingly well. For some skaters, the judges would have given more points on that. But for some skaters, it's very important to find fault with every weakness and performance flaw, and for fans to find justification for judges' decisions. It is what it is. :COP:

Someone mentioned Ashley being dinged for an under-rotation. So was Karen. Also at last year's Nationals, Ashley skated quite well and the championship could have gone to either Ashley or Karen. The fed apparently decided to take a chance that Karen was finally coming into her own. Karen hiccoughed at 4CCs, but then came through better at Worlds, although with mistakes which kept her just off the podium. This fall, Karen seemed to be coming on strong and confident, but it was just an illusion.

I'm making observations as an interested but fairly detached fan. I'm not as captivated by the ladies these days as I am by the other disciplines.
Yea with posts that long. Detached fan. Lol
 
Regarding the US Ladies Sr Nationals SP 2018:

Based on the Protocols, I would say that Mirai is only valued for her technical content. If she does it, I am guessing that it will keep the US from being embarrassed at the Olympics. I am glad Mirai developed it.

I think Bradie's scores were fair as she is essentially doing what Gracie used to do.

In a fair world Angela Wang and Karen Chen would be closer together. I would give them both a 68 with some random noise.

Ashley did as Ashley does, but the field improved around her.

Mariah is going to have to decide if she is in until she is 26 because she really should not be ahead of Starr Andrews.

I would have given Polina the benefit of the doubt over Starr, as the judges did. At the end of the day . . .

Polina did do:

3Lp, 3S, 3T, 2A

Starr did do:

3Lp, 3T, 3T, 2A

The late jump bonus is a bit artificial when the skater does not do higher triples and I did see something more finished from Polina than Starr. After Polina skated I though "Darn! She came back to late!" Christy Ness could have turned her into a two time Olympian if they had started in March.

That being said, I am certain we saw very little of Polina because her jumps were probably a disaster after her growth. If Polina is done growing and only 18, I think she should stick around for two years to see what she can do. A 3Lp-3T, 3Lp, 3Lz, 3F, 3F-2T-2LP, 3S, 2A could be competitive content, although a 3F-1/2Lp-3S would be better.

Starr was probably robbed about 2 points and one rank, which is basically fair when considering it is her first senior nationals and she skated so early. I am guessing she will place 4-6 and possibly surpass Wagner and Bell overall.
 
"In a Week or Two, They'll Make you a Starr"

But in all seriousness, with Alysa Liu too young for Junior Worlds, Andrews is looking good for a return trip this year. My only concern is her lutz is still somewhat in a development phase to get the proper edge (and it's the solo jump in the short program for Juniors).


One additional comment: Looks like USFSA really want Karen Chen on that Olympic team, season-to-date results notwithstanding.
 
Well here are my two cents:

Tennell: A very nice program but just because she has long noodle like arms does not mean she is being artistic. She was the best of the night no doubt but I agree with those who said her component marks were PCS were too high. I mean come on, her transition marks were higher than Ashley's. However, she is the it-girl right now and she delivered.

Nagasu: I know I am going to be burned at the stake for this but I think she is the most over scored of the night. So she did a flawed triple axel, big deal. For the first 45 seconds of her program, she did not do anything but stand still and back crossovers and at one point (around the 25 second mark) she dropped her shoulders and looked like she forgot were she was. I seriously thought she was about to stop for some reason. The technical controller was also extremely generous on the triple tow. Snow does not fly up on jumps that are fully rotated.

Chen: A nice performance but I am confused how she can be awarded the highest skating skills score of the night YET she had issues on a jump and only managed two level THREE spins and a level three step sequence?

Wang: Was watching on Icenetwork...honestly cannot even remember her performance. The committee has absolutely no justification to put her on the Olympic team given the criteria anyway, unless she were to somehow win.

Wagner: She had an error but geesh, the rest of her program was good. I am not sure why the step sequence was marked at a level 3 even though it was a level 4 at Skate America. In fact, with two major errors at Skate America, Ashley's score there was only 1.82 lower than her score last night. Tara erroneously attributed it to Ashley's spins yet they were all level four and received positive grades of execution. Frankly it was very refreshing to not have to suffer through another gooey skate pretty program and see a skater actually have to respond to her music.

Bell: I liked how Weir talked all through the program about how she was selling the program but when the marks came up, he said she really did not stand out and was not selling the program. I liked it but again how does someone who has a major error on a jump and receives a level TWO step sequence and two level THREE spins score so high???

As for the rest, who cares. Edmonds cannot do a full arsenal of jumps.

I think it is pretty clear that the judges want an Olympic team of Tennell, Nagasu, and Chen. The skate order should be good for Wagner but I also think it will make it easier for the judges to keep her down. However, as much as I hate to say it because noone needs more drama, if Wang somehow medals and Wagner is fourth, again, given the criteria, Wagner would have to be named to the team. Now personally, I will be very surprised if Wang or Nagasu hold up to the pressure.
 
Welcome to the Code of Points. :) :COP:

Skating Skills are skating skills, not elements, as explained here: https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

You're correct that the levels shouldn't affect the skating skills mark (judges don't even know the levels when marking, and I think that at least part of the reason is to make sure that it doesn't affect the judges' marking in any way), but that document and some of the criteria are outdated. Here is the current chart:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf
 
You're correct that the levels shouldn't affect the skating skills mark (judges don't even know the levels when marking, and I think that at least part of the reason is to make sure that it doesn't affect the judges' marking in any way), but that document and some of the criteria are outdated. Here is the current chart:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf

Well then dang...Nagasu should have gotten 10.00. All those back crossovers were well done!

We know that the elements should not effect the component marks...but we all know they do. Show me a skater who does a lovely triple toe, double toe and gets in the 8's on skating skills for a terrific performance.
 
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