What competition should FSU re-judge? Any interest?

Louis

Private citizen
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14,337
Rewatching historical events and deciding how to rank the skaters is hard to do without mental interference from everything we know about how those skaters placed relative to each other in real life, at this event and in terms of reputation both before and after this event.
I agree with you, but in many ways, scoring non-IJS programs using IJS criteria, or even IJS programs using current IJS criteria, is pointless. E.g., I'm sure Michelle Kwan would "win" 1998 Olympics and beat Sarah Hughes in the 2002 Olympics, but I'm also sure that Tara and Sarah would have added an extra jumping pass if they operated under today's rules. Yuna Kim and her three double axels may have also ended up losing.

The calls would be enormously problematic, IMO:
  • so many *
  • eighth (or more) jumping passes invalidated, often in favor of easier earlier jumps
  • final spin (often a higher points value spin) invalidated, in favor of easier earlier ones

The results would be random and would have strange effects, like skaters who front-loaded jumps and combination spins having unfair advantage.

I would possibly be interested in participating, if we judge using the criteria at the time the competition took place. Anything else is just too fraught with randomness to be worth the time (IMO; no offense if others want to participate).

ETA: Short programs could possibly work using IJS, or at least would have much less random error, regardless of when they took place.
 

alchemy void

campaigning for Surya's 06 Olympic bronze
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23,238
To clarify: no matter what competition(s) we choose, we will be scoring using rules/guidelines of the era. Determining Annette Poeztch's transitions score doesn't exactly hold much appeal to me. :lol:

My initial thought is we'll do a let's watch next weekend of an older 6.0 dance event. People can follow along in a pbp thread, snark, etc, like we've done in the past. And for those that want to participate they can submit their scores during/after the event. Fun, casual, easy.

Then once we figure out which IJS event we want to do, confirm judges, maybe a tech panel, and set deadlines to submit scores. If there's enough interest, we can do a let's watch thread on a weekend for that event too (of course judges could watch the event whenever they want).

And as always I'm open to any suggestions!
 

DreamSkates

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2,509
I don't know enough about scoring but would really enjoy watching and FSU judges scoring and see how it turns out!
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
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Rewatching historical events and deciding how to rank the skaters is hard to do without mental interference from everything we know about how those skaters placed relative to each other in real life, at this event and in terms of reputation both before and after this event. Unless the majority of the competitors are skaters we know next to nothing about.
Seems this already happens with judges. The skaters in a competition are not new to them. Also, at least in the past, judges would go to practices so know what to "expect" from each skater. Talk about bias...!
 

gkelly

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15,203
Yes, judges usually do know something, often quite a lot, about the skaters' past results and reputations.

But not about how history will look back on this competition of these skaters afterward.

I personally find it difficult to "judge" a past competition under 6.0 if I already know the results. There's too much temptation either to prove the original results right or prove them wrong, and then a conscious effort to fight against those tendencies.

If I don't know the results of this event, I can do a more honest job just evaluating the skating.
 

Plusdinfo

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Well, with IJS you're not supposed to be ranking the skaters at all, just scoring them.
I made a mistake in my post, as I meant to write "score" two skaters, not rank. Have fixed that. I was getting at what you wrote, that it's likely fairer to score for this kind of re-judging with IJS... and maybe in real time, too! Although I wonder if judges sometimes get made aware of their IJS scores after the fact and think, "I gave Skater M 9.5 for transitions and Skater P 9.25? I actually think P had better transitions than M." I don't envy judges from what I imagine about the process.
 

Marco

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14,617
Yes, judges usually do know something, often quite a lot, about the skaters' past results and reputations.

But not about how history will look back on this competition of these skaters afterward.

I personally find it difficult to "judge" a past competition under 6.0 if I already know the results. There's too much temptation either to prove the original results right or prove them wrong, and then a conscious effort to fight against those tendencies.

If I don't know the results of this event, I can do a more honest job just evaluating the skating.
Depends on how much you remember / want to remember. Just because someone won a competition doesn't mean s/he won the free skate or won unanimously. Most times, you will have agreed with some and disagreed with other judges. We don't even have the benefit of seeing the practices and the event live and seeing all the replays so we are bound to be slightly off, but we also get to watch it a few times and don't have the pressure to give out the scores within a relatively short time frame or having to take into account all the events that the skaters won or bombed that season - we just have to accept the difference I guess. For our little exercise, I think it is more important to judge based on what you see / what you believe should be rewarded. If I turn out to judge like Vanessa Riley I would be mighty proud (as long as I can justify).

One question that I haven't gotten an answer to and I have asked this question plenty of times before - do / should 6.0 judges come up with a placement first and then assign the 2 scores, or do / should they assign the scores first and just let math decide the ordinals? I often think judges do it the first way and will therefore lead to some unreasonable scores - like Oksana getting a high 1st mark in 1994 when she is missing so many technical elements, simply because some judges think she should be 1st on the night and Nancy's 2nd mark was already high enough for Oksaka to catch up. Judges doing it the second way will likely go "Oksana's technical merit should be 5.6 and artistic impression 5.8 - I will give these scores without reference to what I gave Nancy because I should be judging what I see based on a 6.0 scale instead of what I should give her relative to what I gave others."
 

skateboy

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6,910
I guess the first question should be: is there any interest in re-judging a competition? :COP:

We've done this a few times before, I think most recently @kwanatic facilitated re-judging ladies 2014 Olympics. (I may or may not have been the bitch who scored Kostner at 6.00 for transitions in the LP). :shuffle:

Essentially, we watch a competition on youtube, and then submit our scores, using the scoring system and guidelines of the time. It's particularly fun with controversial judging decisions, like the Sochi ladies. Or cluster**** competitions, like 1998 Worlds.

I'm open to any 6.0 or IJS competition and would be happy to facilitate. I'd probably utilize the blank scoring sheets on SkatingScores for IJS competitions, unless I get ambitious and try to code something myself (spoiler alert: I won't).

Any interest? I'd like at least 7 judges. We have plenty of time until any skating starts again, so deadlines to submit scores would be pretty chill.

If you're interested, let me know. Also drop your suggestions for competitions to score here. Keep in mind the competition needs to be able to watch, and I'd prefer to be able to do both segments of the competition, and be able to score at least the top 10.
I'd be happy to judge, if I can. I was a roller competitor for a long time and did a fair share of serving as a judge for roller competitions. As an ice skating fan (and not a professional judge), I feel fairly confident with the COP (and 6.0) and would enjoy giving it a try. If not, no worries, I will not be offended. :)
 

Marco

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floskate

Vacant
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If you want obscure, I could always temporarily upload a competition from the old old days. I would do it as one file so its in skate order. Most of my old footage is pretty much live broadcast feed so it's in real time. No fluff or crap like that. And I can do dance for that too. Might be interesting for some to try and judge some old time ice dance? (Totally different sport!)
 

gkelly

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One question that I haven't gotten an answer to and I have asked this question plenty of times before - do / should 6.0 judges come up with a placement first and then assign the 2 scores, or do / should they assign the scores first and just let math decide the ordinals?
For freeskates I think they mostly decided placements first and then chose scores to achieve the correct rankings in their opinions. At the very top in elite contests, they could risk running out of room since no score higher than 6.0 was possible. In the middle, they could risk running out of room if many skaters were clustered in the same range. So they did have to keep track of what scores they'd already given and fit each subsequent skater into the intended slot, even if that meant scoring higher on presentation for a skater whose main advantage was technical, or vice versa.

For short programs it was more complicated. They were supposed to set a base value for the
required elements and then subtract the mandatory deductions from that, and to set a Presentation score separate from the base value. But it seemed usually the second mark was within a tenth or two of what the first mark would have been without deductions. I'd guess some judges started by setting base marks and deducting, others started by focusing on the deductions required and where they wanted to rank the skaters, some first on rankings, and then made the necessary adjustments so that both the rankings and the evident deductions came out the way they thought appropriate.
 

attyfan

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I don't know enough about scoring but would really enjoy watching and FSU judges scoring and see how it turns out!
I also don't know enough about scoring (and little about the more technical aspects, such as edges) but I would like to see how the knowledgeable people judge ... and explain the results.
 

Marco

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For freeskates I think they mostly decided placements first and then chose scores to achieve the correct rankings in their opinions. At the very top in elite contests, they could risk running out of room since no score higher than 6.0 was possible. In the middle, they could risk running out of room if many skaters were clustered in the same range. So they did have to keep track of what scores they'd already given and fit each subsequent skater into the intended slot, even if that meant scoring higher on presentation for a skater whose main advantage was technical, or vice versa.

For short programs it was more complicated. They were supposed to set a base value for the
required elements and then subtract the mandatory deductions from that, and to set a Presentation score separate from the base value. But it seemed usually the second mark was within a tenth or two of what the first mark would have been without deductions. I'd guess some judges started by setting base marks and deducting, others started by focusing on the deductions required and where they wanted to rank the skaters, some first on rankings, and then made the necessary adjustments so that both the rankings and the evident deductions came out the way they thought appropriate.
Thanks gkelly for your response. I would love to look into situations where the judges DID run out of room, either at the top or in between skaters.

Although I believe the rules allow judges to give the same scores to different skaters, either under COP or 6.0.
 

Tony Wheeler

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Kostner 2004 Worlds LP is the only example you’ll ever need of judges boxing themselves in by the time it got to the end.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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Scoring at 2004 world's was ridiculous.

How to score people with too many jumping passes or too few?
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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62,386
I certainly will not volunteer to score the event, whatever is decided, but I look forward to the watch party and disagreeing with you judges who don't pick my favorite to win. :drama: :saint: Just keeping it real.
 

alchemy void

campaigning for Surya's 06 Olympic bronze
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All right, here's how we'll proceed:
  • We'll do a FSU watch party NEXT weekend (maybe Saturday, May 30th) as this weekend is actually is a holiday weekend in the US and I want to get outside as much as possible. We will probably do a couple of 6.0 dance events. And judging will be open to everyone, you can do it right in the play by play thread or submit your scores within a day or two, and I'll post the results afterward. I'll start a separate thread for this in a couple days, to avoid confusion.
  • We'll do a FSU watch party the following weekend to start the IJS event. I'll start another thread to confirm judges and timetables, and probably a poll to determine which singles event we want to judge. This way all of FSU can participate in a pbp thread to watch "live", but judges will have plenty of time to submit their scores.
Looking forward to getting started! :cheer:
 
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VGThuy

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Omg Kostner at 2004 Worlds where she portrayed Vanessa Mae playing a medley of unrelated musical pieces on the violin in a span of four minutes; something I’m sure the real Mae never did.
 

skipaway

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9,157
I would not be able to judge, but I will volunteer to represent the US in the North American judging block. I have plenty of clorox wipes, toilet paper and chocolate to help any judge reach the correct placement of my skater. :bloc::puppet::skandal:bribe:
 
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rfisher

Let the skating begin
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62,386
I would not be able to judge, but I will volunteer to represent the US in the North American judging block. I have plenty of chloroform wipes, toilet paper and chocolate to help any judge reach the correct placement of my skater. :bloc::puppet::skandal:bribe:
Hmmmm, while I wouldn't spend any of my donations on ice dance, if your strategy is effective, I might be willing to help out on ladies or pairs comps.
 

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
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Will this be anonymous judging or public judging? :2faced:

We can do it old school, and require the judges to stand on a bag of party ice as they hold up number cards :shuffle:
 
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Kateri

void beast
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3,907
Will this be anonymous judging or public judging? :2faced:

We can do it old school, and require the judges to stand on a bag of party ice as they hold up number cards :shuffle:
Or post a selfie, with the score written on a disposable facemask! (semi-anonymous judging)
 

gkelly

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15,203
Mostly the 6.0 rules stated what was supposed to be considered but without any official guidance on how to translate those considerations into numerical scores, or even what should be given greater or lesser weight.

Ice dance also had a lot of rules about what was and wasn't allowed, often with deductions that the judges were supposed to apply. But those tended to change with each ISU congress.
 

casken

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I think Ice dancing is the one discipline that fan judging would probably produce more protocol/reputation/biased results, imo.
So I would totally be down to judge. :blocjudge:bribe::sekret::judge:
 

Marco

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Another option is the men circa 90 - 92. Some of the Browning vs Petrenko judging are quite fascinating.
 

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