What If ... 1992 Olympics Ladies competition

[Marco]

What were their planned FS content? IIRC (perhaps in a slightly different order):

Ito: 3axel3toe, 3lutz3toe, 3flip, 3loop, 3axel, 3sal, 2axel.
Yamaguchi: 3lutz3toe, 3flip, 3toe, 2axel, 3loop, 3sal, 3lutz, 2axel.
Harding: 3axel, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 3toe3toe, 3sal, 2axel.
Kerrigan: 3toe3toe, 3flip, 2axel, 3loop, 3sal, 3lutz, 2axel.

Considering element quality, spins, footwork and speed etc, and my impression of their programs and skating quality in general, my scores for them if they went clean with the above content would probably be (no skate order influence):

Ito: 6.0 / 5.7
Yamaguchi: 5.7 / 5.9
Harding: 5.8 / 5.6
Kerrigan: 5.5 / 5.7

 

[Maximillian]

I did find the actual competition to be a letdown when one considers the hype going in

Considering Ito had been a shambles at the previous years Worlds and Harding's skate at Nationals, I don't think how they skated was that big of a surprise to anyone who followed the sport. I didn't find this competition any more disappointing than the 'Battle of the Carmens' in Calgary, especially given Witt and Thomas' showdown at Worlds the previous year and their form coming into the Olympics, though I suppose you could argue that Manly and Ito's skates made up for it, but...neither of them won, so...I wasn't really following the sport enough to have any expectations of Sarajevo, but that would have also been a bit of underwhelming as well. Neither Fratianne nor Poetzch set the world on fire with their skating in Lake Placid...so, I guess what I'm trying to say is that in terms of the ladies event at the Olympics there have been quite a few rather anti-climactic events.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think I’m going to agree that the judges would’ve been in a predicament if both Ito and Harding went all-out with their triple Axels. Imagine Ito does a 3A+3T and another 3A, and Tonya does her 3A to start her long. You’d likely give Midori the 6.0 for technical merit, right? But you give Tonya a 5.9 then?

Of course it’s the ordinal that matters at the end of the day, but could you justify a 5.9/5.9 for Harding (and likely a 6.0/5.9 for Ito in doing so), or do you drop it to 5.9/5.8 (or lower) and then let Kristi sneak in with a 5.8/5.9? She did have a 3+3, after all. I think they would’ve given it to Midori but found a way similar to above to get Kristi into 2nd.

It's funny how by reviewing Harding's rise, that her scores in international events were usually much stronger (for similar performances) than in domestic competition. Case in point that at Skate America 1986, Harding's scores in the free skate were betwen 5.6 - 5.9, and for a similar performance at the 1988 National Championships, they were in the 5.3-5.5 range.

Granted, Harding skated a shaky short at the Olympic Trials. But still, that's a huge difference.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I did find the actual competition to be a letdown when one considers the hype going in

Albertville across all four disciplines was really average.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I thought the whole Olympics was a bit of a damp squib skating-wise; especially coming after Calgary which was just SO epic.

The men's event was a hot mess, too. Paul Wylie, in some ways was very lucky. Firstly, to have been selected for the US Team at all when Mark Mitchell should have won the National Championships. Secondly, when Eldredge, Browning, Bowman, and to some extent, Petrenko, Barna, Zagorodnyuk and Urmanov, all skated below their best. Stojko was the new kid in town, but at that point, he was a dirt biker with bad posture.

I remember when Barbie Underhill and Paul Martini commentated for Australian tv, and were asked what they thought of the ice rink, which was a purpose-build temporary facility. They both agreed that it wasn't the Saddledome, that's for sure.

 

[Deleted member 221]

At their best, Ito and Harding were so far ahead of the rest of the field that they pushed most other ladies to include technical content that they didn't have a prayer of landing (at least in full). This was one of the messiest periods of skating, I think for that reason.

 

[floskate]

Considering Ito had been a shambles at the previous years Worlds and Harding's skate at Nationals, I don't think how they skated was that big of a surprise to anyone who followed the sport. I didn't find this competition any more disappointing than the 'Battle of the Carmens' in Calgary, especially given Witt and Thomas' showdown at Worlds the previous year and their form coming into the Olympics, though I suppose you could argue that Manly and Ito's skates made up for it, but...neither of them won, so...I wasn't really following the sport enough to have any expectations of Sarajevo, but that would have also been a bit of underwhelming as well. Neither Fratianne nor Poetzch set the world on fire with their skating in Lake Placid...so, I guess what I'm trying to say is that in terms of the ladies event at the Olympics there have been quite a few rather anti-climactic events.

That's harsh on Ito. She'd been injured going in to Munich despite having skated very well at NHK and had lost a lot of training time due to a jaw operation. Then she got taken out by Hubert in the SP warm up - one of, if not the worst singles warm up crashes I have ever seen - before falling out of the rink and puncturing her boot as a result. The next day she was skating with suspected cracked ribs and an ankle injury caused by the falling out of the rink. There was talk that she should withdraw but Japanese Olympic spots were on the line. It is hardly a surprise she skated so poorly (for her) given the federation pressure and her multiple injuries. It was so sad to watch but hardly shambolic.

 

[Maximillian]

That's harsh on Ito. She'd been injured going in to Munich despite having skated very well at NHK and had lost a lot of training time due to a jaw operation. Then she got taken out by Hubert in the SP warm up - one of, if not the worst singles warm up crashes I have ever seen - before falling out of the rink and puncturing her boot as a result. The next day she was skating with suspected cracked ribs and an ankle injury caused by the falling out of the rink. There was talk that she should withdraw but Japanese Olympic spots were on the line. It is hardly a surprise she skated so poorly (for her) given the federation pressure and her multiple injuries. It was so sad to watch but hardly shambolic.

The fact is that Ito should have won Worlds in 1991 and didn't even medal, that's a shambles. Ito was expected to and should have won every World title of that quad, yet somehow she managed to win only one, by the time the Olympics came around it was pretty evident that she had some mental hangups with regards to competition and her performance in the SP did nothing to disprove that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

That's harsh on Ito. She'd been injured going in to Munich despite having skated very well at NHK and had lost a lot of training time due to a jaw operation. Then she got taken out by Hubert in the SP warm up - one of, if not the worst singles warm up crashes I have ever seen - before falling out of the rink and puncturing her boot as a result. The next day she was skating with suspected cracked ribs and an ankle injury caused by the falling out of the rink. There was talk that she should withdraw but Japanese Olympic spots were on the line. It is hardly a surprise she skated so poorly (for her) given the federation pressure and her multiple injuries. It was so sad to watch but hardly shambolic.

Agreed. Midori really was the hard luck girl in Munich. After everything that had transpired the previous day, I was shocked that she still went for the triple axel.

Looking back, I would probably have placed Chouinard or Conway ahead of Kerrigan in the free skate, too.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

The fact is that Ito should have won Worlds in 1991 and didn't even medal, that's a shambles. Ito was expected to and should have won every World title of that quad, yet somehow she managed to win only one, by the time the Olympics came around it was pretty evident that she had some mental hangups with regards to competition and her performance in the SP did nothing to disprove that.

Pressure from the Japanese Federation must have been insane. Cameras followed her everywhere, much as they do Hanyu now. I felt so sorry for Midori, when she felt she had to apologise for only winning silver in Albertville.

 

[Maximillian]

Pressure from the Japanese Federation must have been insane. Cameras followed her everywhere, much as they do Hanyu now. I felt so sorry for Midori, when she felt she had to apologise for only winning silver in Albertville.

I agree, it was horrible, she was such a phenomenal talent!

 

[Deleted member 221]

I agree it's shocking that Ito has only one world title given that, to this day, I'm not sure there was ever a skater in any discipline farther ahead of the rest of the field or farther ahead of her time. Her 1989 (or 1990) Worlds free skate would be competitive 30 years later; it likely would have won most Worlds thereafter, and certainly would have medalled in every Worlds thereafter. Unfortunate combination of bad luck plus nerves.

 

[floskate]

The fact is that Ito should have won Worlds in 1991 and didn't even medal, that's a shambles. Ito was expected to and should have won every World title of that quad, yet somehow she managed to win only one, by the time the Olympics came around it was pretty evident that she had some mental hangups with regards to competition and her performance in the SP did nothing to disprove that.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. She did the best she could with a horrific set of circumstances. That is not a shambles. A skater like Christopher Bowman who would rock up for competitions having not trained in weeks and clearly out of shape due to his own life choices but somehow eeking out semi-respectable skates due to insane talent alone could be regarded as a shambles. Not this instance. IIRC there was a documentary in Japanese from many years ago now where Machiko Yamada (or someone close to her anyway) claimed that her free skate in Munich was the bravest performance of her career. There was SO much on the line and the pressure on her was incredible. Anybody else would probably have been in hospital or at least in bed, having withdrawn through injury.

The performance in the SP proved one thing only - that she jumped too close to the boards. This is something she had flirted with for many years and it finally got her. Whether it was a matter of too much juice compensating for the pain she was in, who knows? The triple lutz was absolutely fantastic! The LP was hard to watch because literally no one had ever seen her skate so badly before.

 

[olympic]

Agreed. Midori really was the hard luck girl in Munich. After everything that had transpired the previous day, I was shocked that she still went for the triple axel.

Looking back, I would probably have placed Chouinard or Conway ahead of Kerrigan in the free skate, too.

Interesting comments about Chouinard and Conway. Didn't Chouinard only have a 3L at this point in her career? I know Conway did fairly well at 91 Worlds and was a Fassi pupil. My only clear memories of her skating was in Calgary 88 where she was a hot mess.

 

[floskate]

Interesting comments about Chouinard and Conway. Didn't Chouinard only have a 3L at this point in her career? I know Conway did fairly well at 91 Worlds and was a Fassi pupil. My only clear memories of her skating was in Calgary 88 where she was a hot mess.

She had left Fassi by 1991 and returned to her former trainer in the UK. The competition footage shows Carlo and Christa applauding in the stands after her skate. 1991 Worlds was the performance of her life. Triple flip in the short and free, as well as a Colledge - 3sal combo. Joanne said herself in an interview in Munich that having seen all the girls doing triple lutz the best she could hope for was 7th so she met that target. I always wonder what 1991 Worlds Joanne transported to 1989 Europeans with the same content plus her excellent figures....would she have beaten Leistner for the title?

 

[Miki89]

The buzz behind the scenes at the time (despite the media pushing Ito vs. Yamaguchi - they always do that to build suspense, etc. ) was that gold was Kristi's to lose. It is common for fans to remember or see these things differently – because they are fans and are cheering on a specific skater. The politics, however, favored Yamaguchi if she did not suffer a meltdown or give it away – it is important to emphasize this. Never underestimate the political side of things. Kristi was a clear favorite despite the fact Midori earned and enjoyed an abundance of praise for the magnificent skater she was. Still, Midori was somewhat in the shadow of the USA having a viable Olympic gold medal threat (Kristi) after a considerable dry spell of not, even though Japan was looking for their first Olympic Champion, which they eventually got w/ Shizuka.

I always thought Kristi was the favorite among the judges. She fit the profile of a conventional ladies skater at the time. Midori and Tonya were way too different and if either of them had been more dominant, the sport could have drastically changed. Kristi always had consistency relative to her competitors. It's not that surprising that they made many mistakes. It's bound to happen when you attempt highly risky layouts and jumps that big.

 

[LarrySK8]

If everyone had skated their best, then perhaps Chouinard, Bonaly AND Hubert would have beaten Kerrigan Yuka simply didn't have the jumps yet.

 

[bardtoob]

The fact is that Ito should have won Worlds in 1991 and didn't even medal, that's a shambles. Ito was expected to and should have won every World title of that quad, yet somehow she managed to win only one, by the time the Olympics came around it was pretty evident that she had some mental hangups with regards to competition and her performance in the SP did nothing to disprove that.

She got mowed down by the Human Zamboni.

Crash between Midori Ito (JPN) & Laetitia Hubert (FRA) - 1991 World Figure Skating Championships

Munich, GERMANY - 1991 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Original Program - Crash between Midori Ito of Japan and Laetitia Hubert of France during ...

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This SP with a 2T-2T combination kept Trenary competitive some how.

Jill Trenary OP 1990 World Figure Skating Championships

Jill Trenary froze on her combination and finished 5th in the original program.

www.youtube.com

Midori did the 3Lz-2T.

Midori Ito OP 1990 World Figure Skating Championships

After skating disastrous figures, Midori Ito made up ground on Jill Trenary by winning the short program.

www.youtube.com

 

[I❤️Marina&Sergai]

I thought the whole Olympics was a bit of a damp squib skating-wise; especially coming after Calgary which was just SO epic.

Yeah no one really seemed to be at the top of their game during that competition

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

The ordinals would have been amazing. We know what Vanessa Reilly would have done.

If Vanessa had judged the 1908 Games, she would have deducted for dresses that revealed anything more than a shapely ankle.

 

[VGThuy]

Hmmm...probably, even if she still ranked that skater first. Omg, upper shin!

 

[Vagabond]

If everyone had skated their best, then perhaps Chouinard, Bonaly AND Hubert would have beaten Kerrigan Yuka simply didn't have the jumps yet.

If Hubert ever skated to her best in both segments of an Olympic or World Championship competition, the world would have come to an end.

 

[olympic]

What were their planned FS content? IIRC (perhaps in a slightly different order):

Ito: 3axel3toe, 3lutz3toe, 3flip, 3loop, 3axel, 3sal, 2axel.
Yamaguchi: 3lutz3toe, 3flip, 3toe, 2axel, 3loop, 3sal, 3lutz, 2axel.
Harding: 3axel, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 3toe3toe, 3sal, 2axel.
Kerrigan: 3toe3toe, 3flip, 2axel, 3loop, 3sal, 3lutz, 2axel.

Considering element quality, spins, footwork and speed etc, and my impression of their programs and skating quality in general, my scores for them if they went clean with the above content would probably be (no skate order influence):

Ito: 6.0 / 5.7
Yamaguchi: 5.7 / 5.9
Harding: 5.8 / 5.6
Kerrigan: 5.5 / 5.7

I think Ito's opening jump sequences were planned as a 3Z-3T and 3A-2T, and I know Harding did a 3S in combo w/ a 2T. Funny that Kerrigan's planned layout doesn't ring a bell.

 

[Coco]

Was a leg wrap an actual flaw under 6.0? I'm just wondering about Ito and Harding both skating clean...Harding's form in the air was better, but not sure if that would have mattered.

I would also say the scoring system contributed to Midori only having 1 World title.

 

[VGThuy]

Comparatively, Ito’s leg wrap didn’t seem as bad as other skaters who truly had a wrap. I always thought Ito just had a high knee most of the time as opposed to an actual wrap like say...Nakano.

 

[gkelly]

Was a leg wrap an actual flaw under 6.0?

What I understood from what I heard at the time:

A high free foot crossed closer to the knee than the ankle of the landing leg, which is pretty much what Ito's air position looked like on her loop, flip, and lutz, was considered less aesthetically pleasing than a tight position, but not a serious technical flaw. It would be more likely to slow down rotation, especially if the knee is turned out and far from the landing leg, so from a coaching point of view it was undesirable. Ito got plenty of air time so that wasn't a problem for her.

A "wrap" where the thighs were crossed and the hips turned in was more likely to be associated with underrotation and therefore more likely to be penalized more severely.

 

[Erin]

I would also say the scoring system contributed to Midori only having 1 World title.

Yeah, Midori had the bad luck that her best skates at Worlds and the Olympics were while figures were in place and as soon as they were abolished, injury hit. I think that pre-89, she was also not being sufficiently rewarded for her free skating - e.g. in Calgary, there is a good argument to have her first in both the short and long or maybe second behind Kadavy in the short. But even then, it probably wouldn't have mattered. Putting her first in both programs in Calgary still only moves her one spot, above Trenary. Dropping figures from 30% in 1988 to 20% in 1989 helped her out, plus some combination of having a better day at figures/thinned out field/better reputation.

One thing I've always wondered about Ito - if there had been no figures in the 80s and she had been winning everything like crazy, would she have succumbed to pressure in 1988 like she somewhat did in 1992? Obviously we will never know. But when she was younger, it seemed like nothing could stop her besides figures, and it seemed like the injuries in 1991 were the turning point for her.

 

[bardtoob]

.

 

[bardtoob]

Without figures in the 80s Midori would have had to contend with a very fit Tonya Harding, who could actually out jump Midori at times.

Here Tonya did the 3Lz-2Lp while Midori did the 2Lp-3Lp.

1987 NHK Tonya Harding SP

Tonya skates an amazing short program to beat Katarina Witt and take 2nd place behing Midori Ito. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tonya was th...

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1987 NHK cup SP by Midori Ito

Music is "The festival of Mt.Youtei"

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Note: Christopher Bowman's combination for the 1987-88 season was also the 3Lz-2Lp.

 

[Marco]

Ito's wrap doesn't bother me as much since her jumps were still explosive enough that she could clearly finish the rotations in the air and land the jumps cleanly. I am more bugged that she often didn't properly check her landings - leaving them look sloppy and like they were step outs.