IF all ladies skated cleanly in Calgary '88 ....

essence_of_soy

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Witt and Mueller were definitely strategists.

However, I recall from one interview years after Calgary that Witt, having skated and then listening to the reaction to Manley's skate, thought, "Oh no. I haven't done enough."

It is interesting though, that her technical content became somewhat watered down after 1984. She no longer did the double lutz/triple toe, and had abandoned the triple flip (as others mentioned). Her body was becoming more womanly as well, which must have been another challenge.

Something Debi Thomas mentioned years later, was that on the 1988 exhibition tour, Katarina still competed with her. When Debi began adding a triple to her skates, Witt would add two. When Thomas added two, Katarina would include three.
 
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olympic

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Here are the scores for the LP -

Witt:

Tech
5.85.75.65.75.85.85.85.75.7

Artistic
5.95.85.95.85.95.95.95.95.9

Thomas:

Tech
5.7 5.55.55.75.75.85.65.65.6

Artistic
5.55.85.65.75.65.75.75.75.7

Thomas had 3 errors. Witt had zero errors. Could an argument be made to lift Thomas' marks by 0.3? I am not sure how that worked under 6.0 ...
 

viennese

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Two questions:
Has anyone ever posted Canadian coverage of this event?
Are there SP or FS to see from ladies further down in the standings? Fine free skaters, I mean, who were not so great in compulsory figures. I can't recall seeing any clips except for competitors in the last two groups.
 

olympic

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Two questions:
Has anyone ever posted Canadian coverage of this event?
Are there SP or FS to see from ladies further down in the standings? Fine free skaters, I mean, who were not so great in compulsory figures. I can't recall seeing any clips except for competitors in the last two groups.

For some reason, I recall ABC cutting to skating when Marina Kiehlmann took to the ice in group #2, and the last 2 groups were shown in their entirety. That is all I remember
 

Maximillian

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Charlene Wong and Yvonne Gomez were also shown in part, the latter due to her relationship with Boitano.
 

ErikWilliam

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Kielmann was also skating to Carmen that night too.

I'd love to see a Canadian broadcast just to hear how they were calling it!

It makes you wonder how Kadavy could have factored in if she had skated the LP cleanly with 2 3toes, 2 3loops and a 3sal. With her artistry and that jump content it would have had to beat Manley. Manley was just so unrefined. I thought Ito had more going for her than Manley on the second mark.
 

olympic

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Kielmann was also skating to Carmen that night too.

I'd love to see a Canadian broadcast just to hear how they were calling it!

It makes you wonder how Kadavy could have factored in if she had skated the LP cleanly with 2 3toes, 2 3loops and a 3sal. With her artistry and that jump content it would have had to beat Manley. Manley was just so unrefined. I thought Ito had more going for her than Manley on the second mark.

It has been discussed. Kadavy seemed to be on the outs with the judges and may not have had much of an impact - sadly
 

Erin

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Re the Canadian broadcast, I have a copy, but I’m not putting up Olympic videos now in case it gets my channel taken down. I may start a new channel once I upload everything else and just put the Olympic videos on there so they don’t taint the rest of the channel if they get pulled.
 

ErikWilliam

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It has been discussed. Kadavy seemed to be on the outs with the judges and may not have had much of an impact - sadly

But that's what intrigues me. Also old-time politiks. WHY could judges just 'dump' Kadavy???? Her SP was so much more worthy than Witt's showgirl SP that Witt WON..... with much lesser content, and inferior spins, carriage, posture, etc. Yes, she was a basket case, and her horrendous SP at 86 Worlds I think sealed her in has just a B skater, never dependable, never to be relied as a champion of anything because she was such a mental basket case. Caryn was really in the running at 86 Worlds, until she forgot her helmet crash head cushion during her SP. Then she threw three or FOUR 2xs. She really wasn't a star, a scared underling really. She could never have an "under study" when she's just crap. She's such cowardly.
 

olympic

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But that's what intrigues me. Also old-time politiks. WHY could judges just 'dump' Kadavy???? Her SP was so much more worthy than Witt's showgirl SP that Witt WON..... with much lesser content, and inferior spins, carriage, posture, etc. Yes, she was a basket case, and her horrendous SP at 86 Worlds I think sealed her in has just a B skater, never dependable, never to be relied as a champion of anything because she was such a mental basket case. Caryn was really in the running at 86 Worlds, until she forgot her helmet crash head cushion during her SP. Then she threw three or FOUR 2xs. She really wasn't a star, a scared underling really. She could never have an "under study" when she's just crap. She's such cowardly.

Well, she rose to the occasion the next year at '87 Worlds by snatching the Bronze, but a lot of times she did crash and burn. She did well at both '85 and '86 Nationals, but as you said she had a meltdown when she finally got her first trip to Worlds. At '87 Nationals, that was really the worst SP and she got seriously buried. I wondered at the time if she would make the team, but Tiffany Chin imploded on her own in the LP to let Kadavy sneak onto the podium and go to Worlds again. She was beaten again by Thomas and Trenary at '88 Nationals and it seemed by then the USFSA made up their mind that Trenary was the one to support.
 

VGThuy

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Any in depth analysis of this event makes me so glad for IJS, even with its flaws.

I know. The programs may have become more-or-less uniform, but at least we see HOW skaters were ranked and why they scored the way they did. We may disagree why skater A's superior spins didn't score better than skater B's also level 4 but inferior or easier spins, but we see the scores attached. 6.0 in retrospect would have made me go bald due to pulling my hair out. A lot of it too was whether a skater had "it" or not and nobody is a good judge of themselves regarding that and though that still has it's place in IJS, we have skaters without "it" be able to do enough in TES that even the judges can't deny it.
 
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Coco

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And the political favoritism and "promotion." I mean, this is still definitely a problem, and moving to +/-5 might exacerbate it, but UGH, it was so obviously strangling the sport at this competition.

Kadavy probably got sick from her SP scores. Those marks and the belief that nothing I could do would matter most definitely would have made me puke!
 

VGThuy

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The only thing I really know of Kadavy was that I thought her 1987 Worlds LP was probably the most artistically complete performed program I saw during that period (and probably the Olympic cycle after).
 

sonsofanarchy

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How would the results have changed?

The SP - IIRC, the mistakes that effected the top tier the most were from Trenary (slight 2 ft. on 3F combo), Leistner (fall on a spin!) and Ivanova (frankly can't remember her SP). How would clean SPs from them effected the standings after the SP? I think Trenary would have passed Kadavy in 5th, but would she have jumbled the standings between Manley and Ito? Had she executed a clean 3F at all that year? Would Leistner of Ivanova w/ clean programs effected the top 6 at all? It seems Witt, Manley, Ito and the 3 Americans clean would have stayed ahead of them based on historical perspective.

The LP - Thomas skating clean may have made the biggest shake-up to the podium. She executed a clean 3-3 and 3L at Nationals, so she may have been able to pass Witt on the tech mark, which was IIRC, the tie-breaker in 88 (not in the 90s), and may have been able to outright win. Witt's Carmen was IMO a step down from WSS and the judges weren't kind to her on tech in the LP. Was she capable of a clean 3L that season? I don't recall her landing one at any competition after 87 Worlds. Manley had 5 triples including a 3Z but no combos and she was skating in front of her home country, but something about that program left me :huh: . Kadavy was absent but it seemed like the skating establishment had abandoned her judging by the SP and Trenary doubled a couple of jumps, but I still don't think Trenary would've made it to the podium

And I know Ito is a fave, but she was buried in the figures and skated arguably the most inspirational programs in Calgary, so there was no room for her to go higher in the standings if Thomas and Trenary also went clean. All of Witt, Manley, Thomas and Trenary were ahead of her as it was:

1. Thomas
2. Witt
3. Manley
4. Trenary
5. Ito
6. Kadavy

I assume based on her presentation marks a truly clean Trenary would have won the short program. Since she had a bunch of 5.9s on the 2nd mark even for that cheesy immature program. The only one besides Witt too. So with a clean skate most of her presentation scores would have matched Witt who had almost all 5.9s, and with a truly clean triple flip combo how could the judges justify giving her low technical marks than Witt who did only a triple toe-double loop combo. Wouldn't that be impossible?
 

sonsofanarchy

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Kielmann was also skating to Carmen that night too.

I'd love to see a Canadian broadcast just to hear how they were calling it!

It makes you wonder how Kadavy could have factored in if she had skated the LP cleanly with 2 3toes, 2 3loops and a 3sal. With her artistry and that jump content it would have had to beat Manley. Manley was just so unrefined. I thought Ito had more going for her than Manley on the second mark.

Kadavy did not even beat Manley in the short with Manley doing a much easier jump combination and having 2 minor mistakes/wobbles- the landing of the triple combination and the first camel spin, literally the only 1 of the top 5 who wasn't squeeky clean. There is no way she then is marked over her in the long program with Manley doing a triple lutz.

I agree with the person who said the short program made it clear Kadavy was never a contender in Calgary no matter how she skated. Politically she was just too out of it as 3rd American. She would have had to have a great Nationals and possibly win it to really stand a change in Calgary. Even at the 87 worlds she was blatantly robbed of the silver or maybe the gold, but atleast the silver. And she wouldn't have even gotten that if Manley did not blow her long program.
 

ErikWilliam

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I assume based on her presentation marks a truly clean Trenary would have won the short program. Since she had a bunch of 5.9s on the 2nd mark even for that cheesy immature program. The only one besides Witt too. So with a clean skate most of her presentation scores would have matched Witt who had almost all 5.9s, and with a truly clean triple flip combo how could the judges justify giving her low technical marks than Witt who did only a triple toe-double loop combo. Wouldn't that be impossible?

You should go on Youtube and look up 1987 NHK that Witt won against Ito and Harding. I think Witt only did 2 triples and won against a stacked program by Ito and Harding wasn't so shabby either and potentially should have beaten Witt there too. This was one of the worst cases of reputation judging I can recall, though I remember Kurt winning a GP solely due to reputation and he even was embarrassed about it.

The judges who gave Trenary the 5.9s (four of them) gave her lower tech marks (US gave her 5.5/5.9). It appears to be a case of judges getting boxed in and just playing with the numbers to get the right ranking. (Like Baiul getting a 5.9 in technical in Lillehammer, wtf???!!!! I suppose that judge gave Kerrigan 5.8/5.9 and had no choice but to give Baiul 5.9/5.9 to get the correct placement.I don't feel like going back to review their scores.) We've debated that SP before, so not trying to get into that debate but Trenary should have placed top 3 or 4 (behind Kadavy, Ito, Thomas in whatever order) but definitely ahead of Manley and Witt. Manley had the home-cooking marks though so her weak SP with a 3sal was placed ahead of stronger SPs.
 

bardtoob

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I suppose that judge gave Kerrigan 5.8/5.9 and had no choice but to give Baiul 5.9/5.9 to get the correct placement.

That judge could have been Jan Hoffman, who claimed he did not see Kerrigan's 3T-3T or he would have made the scores different.
 

ErikWilliam

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That judge could have been Jan Hoffman, who claimed he did not see Kerrigan's 3T-3T or he would have made the scores different.

I forgot that!!! Wow. But it makes no sense to give Kerrigan 5.8/5.9 so early in the flight. That judge whoever it is would have at least looked competent if he went 5.7/6.0 for Baiul because Baiul made so many small errors she realistically should have been a tenth or two (or more) lower than Kerrigan. Giving Baiul the technical advantage is just poor judging. IMO.
 

sonsofanarchy

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You should go on Youtube and look up 1987 NHK that Witt won against Ito and Harding. I think Witt only did 2 triples and won against a stacked program by Ito and Harding wasn't so shabby either and potentially should have beaten Witt there too. This was one of the worst cases of reputation judging I can recall, though I remember Kurt winning a GP solely due to reputation and he even was embarrassed about it.

The judges who gave Trenary the 5.9s (four of them) gave her lower tech marks (US gave her 5.5/5.9). It appears to be a case of judges getting boxed in and just playing with the numbers to get the right ranking. (Like Baiul getting a 5.9 in technical in Lillehammer, wtf???!!!! I suppose that judge gave Kerrigan 5.8/5.9 and had no choice but to give Baiul 5.9/5.9 to get the correct placement.I don't feel like going back to review their scores.) We've debated that SP before, so not trying to get into that debate but Trenary should have placed top 3 or 4 (behind Kadavy, Ito, Thomas in whatever order) but definitely ahead of Manley and Witt. Manley had the home-cooking marks though so her weak SP with a 3sal was placed ahead of stronger SPs.

Yes I have seen NHK 87. It shows a political mess skating was then. Witt winning that event without figures despite skating pretty awful, and Ito and to an extent Harding skating spectacularly with amazing jump content. Witt only made 2 clean triples in her long program, it paled in comparision to her skate from the 87 worlds, or even her Calgary skate which wasn't her best. And I don't know if even her skate from the 87 worlds would have deserved to beat Ito's clearly superior technical skate in the long program. Of course she won the long to win the event. And in the short she totally botched the combo, she really should have been 4th behind a young Kerrigan who skated cleanly, and not even been in position to win the event. The judges kept her 3rd to make sure they could give her the gold after the long. I would have probably had her 3rd behind Harding as well at this event. Actually I probably had Harding 1st in the short over Ito (Ito clearly winning the long and event) which would really ensured Harding beating Witt at this event.

You could be right on Trenary, especialy since those artistic marks seemed high for that childish program which was really similar to Manley's short program, without even the performance skills Manley had to compensate for the juvenile choreography. So it could be just maneuving marks to get the position they wanted and my theory of her winning the short over Witt with a clean triple flip combo given her 2nd marks might be totally off.
 

sonsofanarchy

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If the CF placements had remained the same and everyone had skated clean in the free, the top three would have been 1. Witt, 2. Thomas 3. Manley.

The judge's votes would have broken in favor of Witt (Dick Button mentioned the way the judges were leaning after both Witt and Thomas skated great in the short.).

It's hard to take a title away from a champion.

Those final placings are impossible since Witt did skate clean and already lost the LP to Manley, so that part does not change. If Thomas is behind Witt in the LP as you have her, she is only bronze overall.
 

sonsofanarchy

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If Witt was capable of a 3loop, I am guessing the judges still go with Witt over Thomas if Witt skates cleanly with the 3loop. Even with Thomas's triple toe-triple toe and improved artistry. My guess is Witt without the triple loop, Thomas wins as long as she does both the 3loop and 3 toe-3 toe, even if she doubles one of the salchows as she often did this season. And good chance in that case Thomas is 2nd in the long, dropping Witt to the bronze medal overall now. There is no scenario Manley can win except for Ito finishing 2nd in the long or Manley finishing 2nd in the short over Thomas or 3rd in figures over Witt, none which happened.
 

Maximillian

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I would agree with the above that had Witt included the 3R in the LP, she would have beaten a clean Thomas, in part because the jump would have occurred mid-way/toward the end of the program and made it a lot more balanced than it was as it was performed. Also, I won't deny that Witt was superior to Thomas both in terms of artistry and speed.
 

ErikWilliam

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I would agree with the above that had Witt included the 3R in the LP, she would have beaten a clean Thomas, in part because the jump would have occurred mid-way/toward the end of the program and made it a lot more balanced than it was as it was performed. Also, I won't deny that Witt was superior to Thomas both in terms of artistry and speed.

It's a shame they didn't all skate their best, because it's hard to know what the judges were thinking going into Calgary and who their preferences were. The SP seemed to show that if Witt was clean she'd be first, but Debi's SP was just so totally different from her LP, that maybe they would have gone for a "classical" Debi program over Witt. But, Manley was the huge wild card. She was nearly flawless in her LP and won it, but I have a feeling that Witt with a 3R would have been enough to beat her program. Witt's presentation was light years ahead of Manley. Manley's presentation was basically spunky/perky/snappy and her lines were very undeveloped. But Manley's LP, with homegrown cooking marks might have been enough over a clean Thomas though. So the end result would still have been Witt, Manley, Thomas in the end anyway.
 

sonsofanarchy

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I would agree with the above that had Witt included the 3R in the LP, she would have beaten a clean Thomas, in part because the jump would have occurred mid-way/toward the end of the program and made it a lot more balanced than it was as it was performed. Also, I won't deny that Witt was superior to Thomas both in terms of artistry and speed.

Personally I hated Witt's Carmen both technically and artistically. Too much posing. I am in the minority that would even prefer her mismatch choreographed program of 84-85, it was odd but it had a lot more skating and showed all the presentation requirements of variation of speed, utilization of the ice, etc...However I am not a judge, and it was clear what the judges thought of Witt's Carmen artistically, haha.

I do think Thomas improved her artistry a good deal in 88, and I personally loved her Carmen, but she still lacked somewhat in speed over the ice compared to other top skaters, particularly Manley, Witt, Ito, maybe even Trenary, which is a big factor in the 2nd mark.

Someone made a good point that Witt's triple salchows were a lot smaller than 87 which I noticed too. Her triple salchows used to big and squarely done, very nice, much less so in 88. That could be another factor to the judges if Thomas had skated better, it had been a better skated event, Manley had done better the earlier programs, etc...It could be another reason her technical marks were so low, along with skating first, obviously not doing the triple loop and having less content planned than Manley and Thomas at that point, and maybe the excess posing too.
 

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