IF all ladies skated cleanly in Calgary '88 ....

[LarrySK8]

This has gotten interesting!

Let's take a moment to look at this a different way. Firstly - are we looking at the programs artistically and for their value in watching over and over 10,000,000 times over the course of history? They all were planned to be programs for a singular performance in one competition - the Olympics. To one set of people with criteria - the judges. That's a different mind set and plan all together.
Secondly, in each skater's individual development of their talents, we have to consider figures, the basic elements and athletics which influence the SP and the virtues of being a "manufactured" skater, a la Stapleford because being manufactured would greatly aid in figures and the SP's seven elements. Thomas really smoked Witt in figures and one could argue a much lower placement for Witt in the CF, but she was held up. Artistic aside, what Stapleford seemed to want is the complete package - a skater who could transform from manufactured CF skater to artistic and free Long Program skater. Neither Witt or Thomas really were the complete skater in all 3 phases of the competition.
Thirdly - in 1988, how had each skater improved or changed? Witt's Carmen was debatably not as good as WSS, in technical or artistic content. Thomas's Carmen was a vast improvement over 1986-87 as a program especially in terms of having positions held out, creating line and pictures and it is an attempt at a real choreographed program. However, she lacked expression. and this hurt her presentation mark. However, it was so much better than the years prior. Her CF was also better, and I thing artistically, her SP was improved also.
So - entering Calgary - Thomas was very much improved artistically, had strong figures, very good jumps and spins and was usually a crowd favorite. But everyone knew going in that the judges and most of the crowd really did prefer Katarina. Katarina was not improved from 1987, was not as good in CF or SP as Thomas and really was only better than Debi artistically and in beauty and star quality and celebrity. She was everyone's preference, including the judges, and all she had to do was give them enough to be able to justify their placements.

In Calgary and Budapest - Debi herself gave the judges reason enough to lose her placement after the CF segments. However, I don't think it is as simple as Carmen being a shite program. It's just forgettable.

 

[VGThuy]

I did like some of the dance leaps in the beginning of Thomas’s program and saw the improvements in her carriage and skills there. I think the problem was the music cuts. I felt it didn’t build or create the atmosphere. It sort of meandered after the dramatic and fun beginning and although I appreciate the fact that she skated a program that had her move across the rink and utilize edge moves, I don’t remember the actual choreography during those parts. I guess that says it all. I dislike the way Witt’s program was constructed and I think that costume made her look old and heavy, (I preferred her styling in Carmen on Ice big time) and those shoulders and sleeves emphasized her wooden carriage and weird arms but I remember like every moment of that choreography. That also says it all.

 

[olympic]

For me, Witt had far superior spins: faster, more revolutions, more difficult positions. Thomas's spins in the free skate were lazy, even by '88 standards, aside from the layback (but even there I preferred Witt's).



She gave an interview to that extent, even before the 1995 interview Erin cited.

Thanks. I guess I could see Thomas's lines better when she moved across the ice and spun because her costume was simple. I liked that. Witt wore that horribly garish get-up in both the SP and LP that covered her lines, so in my mind Thomas looked better. Thomas spun fast herself or was capable of it (I don't remember each spin element). Look at her opening combo spin at the '87 Worlds SP. I also think that Witt being 'far superior' in spins is reaching.

BTW, someone w/ the Canadian Fed. leveled some criticism at Witt's SP costume during Calgary. It may have been Manley's coach (?)

The British judge was Sally Stapleford. She actually gave an interview to one of the UK networks - maybe ITV during 1988 Worlds? - stating that Thomas wasn't as talented as Witt and was more of a "manufactured skater". Never forgotten that.



I mean, this is so true. I remember all the hype and reading about Baryshnikov's influence and was thinking this battle of the Carmen's was going to be mega, but we already had seen Witt's Carmen in Europe via the 1988 Europeans where she had received brilliant artistic marks for both short AND long. We never got US Nationals and rarely any coverage of fall internationals so the first time I saw Debi's Carmen was in Calgary and despite the errors, it was HUGELY underwhelming in comparison!

I'm not talking about the politik that surrounds judging in general, but was Stapleford individually the type that was professional enough to push aside her personal feelings ('manufactured skater') and judge the elements as she saw them at the time. IOW, was a clean LP by Thomas skating last worth a 5.8/5.7? That's all it would have taken in earlier analysis. I don't know Stapleford, but she is portrayed as someone on this board as tough but fair.

Thomas's performance level on the 2nd mark was always bound tightly to her technical side because she was emotional. IOW, she let go when she wasn't doing well. I have a feeling that a NA crowd would have been on their feet for a clean program for Thomas with better artistry and harder jumps. she wore those emotions on her sleeve and her earnestness was self-evident that an audience could sense it. They did so at '87 Worlds for something less. It was a different approach than 'I am Diva'.

IDK, sometimes I view the old days thru the lens of IJS.

 

[bardtoob]

For me, Witt had far superior spins: faster, more revolutions, more difficult positions.

That's just sad because Witt's spins were not good, without looking at spins from Thomas. For example, Witt appeared to only be able to do a sideways leaning spin, not a layback,

Katarina Witt (GDR) - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating, Ladies' Short Program (US ABC)

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Ladies' Short Program - Re-posting another one of the videos the IOC had filed copyright infringement and had m...

youtu.be

unless her arms were flopped down to her side towards her back.

Katarina Witt (GDR) - 1987 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program

Cincinnati, Ohio, USA - 1987 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program - Katarina Witt of East Germany skated a perfect program here to win th...

youtu.be

Witt also had a very bad hunch when she did a sit spin, which is only really forgivable in the so-called cannon ball position.

Katarina Witt (GDR) - 1988 Calgary, Figure Skating, Ladies' Short Program (US ABC)

Calgary, Alberta, CANADA - 1988 Winter Games, Ladies' Short Program - Re-posting another one of the videos the IOC had filed copyright infringement and had m...

youtu.be

I remember having the realization with the advent of YouTube that Witt's beauty was really what allowed her to come from behind to win. Witt could skate, but her feet were sloppy, she was not flexible by skating standards, and she only had reliable 3S and 3T after 1983; at 1987 Worlds the 3Lp was a go for broke move that worked out.

However, I never actually liked the version of Carmen from Thomas. That whole Baryshnikov story seemed like a mutually beneficial story made up by Team Thomas and Baryshnikov.

I did like the SP to clubbing/dance music from Thomas a lot. Her costume accentuated her clean lines and good basic positions while the music seemed to fit her personality and excited the audience.

Debi Thomas 1988 Olympics SP

Her SP from Calgary. She was 1st after the SP.

www.youtube.com

 

[VGThuy]

I have to respect her for going for broke and it working out for her.

 

[Coco]

I've never heard anyone describe Witt's spins as better than Thomas'. Thomas could have revolved faster, but her positions were immaculate and her centering superb most of the time.

 

[Maximillian]

I don't see how that is even a comparison. Boitano from the US and Orser from Canada is definitely not going to split that panel in the way Thomas from the US and Witt from East Germany is going to because there isn't the same voting within the blocks in the men's event - they're both skaters from the west.

If the politics was divided along East/West lines, explain to me how there would be a 'fix' in for Witt would be feasible if only three of the judges were from the Eastern Bloc?

 

[Maximillian]

Most importantly Thomas’s Carmen was a bag of shite. The comparison to one of the most iconic figure skating programmes ever did her no favours.

Witt's program was a show program with a significant portion of the middle section void of jumps or spins. And you declaring something 'shite' is in no way constructive, is the critical equivalent of 'because I said so' and thus, means absolutely nothing.

 

[allezfred]

Witt's program was a show program with a significant portion of the middle section void of jumps or spins. And you declaring something 'shite' is in no way constructive, is the critical equivalent of 'because I said so' and thus, means absolutely nothing.

Didn’t realise we were required to be “constructive” here. Mea culpa.

Thomas’s “Carmen” was still a bag of incoherent shite though.

 

[Maximillian]

Carry on...

 

[gkelly]

Witt's program was a show program with a significant portion of the middle section void of jumps or spins.

I think the real question is whether it was devoid of skating content. Standing around posing or simple gliding on two feet would be a lot different from steps and turns, edge work, field moves, etc. So which really predominated during that section?

 

[Maximillian]

I think the real question is whether it was devoid of skating content. Standing around posing or simple gliding on two feet would be a lot different from steps and turns, edge work, field moves, etc. So which really predominated during that section?

The former, it was over a minute of skating on two feet and posing.

 

[olympic]

The former, it was over a minute of skating on two feet and posing.

It was 1:16 of preening, posing and wrist-flicking to be exact and yes, it was 2-foot skating that moved in one direction, no turns or let’s say no substantive edging

ETA- I always thought Witt’s spins were fine and didn’t realize she hunched her sit spin. I did recognize that she was not so flexible

 

[B.Cooper]

Without reading all four pages, anyone have any stats on the final flight of skaters from say, '88 OLYs, onward...as to how many of the skaters actually skate clean programs? SP and/or LP?

 

[Deleted member 221]

Thomas's spins in the Calgary free skate were bad, IMO, and anyone who says otherwise is misremembering. (Feel free to watch the video to verify.)

1) Camel 1.5 revs and seemed to have a slight bobble - layback 2 revs - back upright spin 3.5 revs: very simple spin executed rather poorly
2) Layback, very nice, 5 revolutions in position (generously)
3) flying camel - 2 revs / change sit 2 revs / butterfly 1 rev (credit for the difficult exit, but beyond that unremarkable)
stars into butterly - 1 rev (unclear if intended to be a spin, really hunched/tired looking)
4) scratch - approx 5 revs and rather slow

Witt definitely had her on revolutions on every spin and difficulty, too.

1) Camel 2 - sit 2 - change upright holding free leg 4 (several intermediate position revs not counted) - fast and centered, gained speed
2) layback - 6 in position plus several others in intermediate positions, fast and centered; not the best back position
3) half biellmann - 4 in nice, difficult position plus several others in intermediate positions
4) flying camel - 4 in a nice COP-friendly position before the transition to the death scene

Witt's short program dress was controversial that season, and I recall she kept adding feathers to it make it more "modest."

 

[olympic]

Thomas's spins in the Calgary free skate were bad, IMO, and anyone who says otherwise is misremembering. (Feel free to watch the video to verify.)

1) Camel 1.5 revs and seemed to have a slight bobble - layback 2 revs - back upright spin 3.5 revs: very simple spin executed rather poorly
2) Layback, very nice, 5 revolutions in position (generously)
3) flying camel - 2 revs / change sit 2 revs / butterfly 1 rev (credit for the difficult exit, but beyond that unremarkable)
stars into butterly - 1 rev (unclear if intended to be a spin, really hunched/tired looking)
4) scratch - approx 5 revs and rather slow

Witt definitely had her on revolutions on every spin and difficulty, too.

1) Camel 2 - sit 2 - change upright holding free leg 4 (several intermediate position revs not counted) - fast and centered, gained speed
2) layback - 6 in position plus several others in intermediate positions, fast and centered; not the best back position
3) half biellmann - 4 in nice, difficult position plus several others in intermediate positions
4) flying camel - 4 in a nice COP-friendly position before the transition to the death scene

Witt's short program dress was controversial that season, and I recall she kept adding feathers to it make it more "modest."

Perhaps the opening mistake deflated her because I would not classify her spins as ‘bad’. There may have been more revolutions and more posture with an on point performance. Every aspect of her performance tended to depend on her emotions and that was not a good night for her

 

[bardtoob]

Witt's short program dress was controversial that season, and I recall she kept adding feathers to it make it more "modest."

Her LP dress was also controversial because, let us say, you could definitely tell she was East German and not Brazilian.

 

[Maximillian]

Thomas's spins in the Calgary free skate were bad, IMO, and anyone who says otherwise is misremembering. (Feel free to watch the video to verify.)

1) Camel 1.5 revs and seemed to have a slight bobble - layback 2 revs - back upright spin 3.5 revs: very simple spin executed rather poorly
2) Layback, very nice, 5 revolutions in position (generously)
3) flying camel - 2 revs / change sit 2 revs / butterfly 1 rev (credit for the difficult exit, but beyond that unremarkable)
stars into butterly - 1 rev (unclear if intended to be a spin, really hunched/tired looking)
4) scratch - approx 5 revs and rather slow

Witt definitely had her on revolutions on every spin and difficulty, too.

1) Camel 2 - sit 2 - change upright holding free leg 4 (several intermediate position revs not counted) - fast and centered, gained speed
2) layback - 6 in position plus several others in intermediate positions, fast and centered; not the best back position
3) half biellmann - 4 in nice, difficult position plus several others in intermediate positions
4) flying camel - 4 in a nice COP-friendly position before the transition to the death scene

Witt's short program dress was controversial that season, and I recall she kept adding feathers to it make it more "modest."

But I don't think anyone's arguing about her LP in Calgary, it's how she would have done had she skated clean. Thomas has said on multiple occasions that she gave up after two-footing the 3/3. I would say how her spins looked at Nationals would be far more telling of what she was capable of when invested. Honestly, I had never seen her skate as poorly as she did at the Olympics and then subsequently at Worlds, even when she had flawed programs in previous seasons, she would never just implode, but the last two LPs of her career, she did just that.

 

[bardtoob]

Debbie should have done the 5 jump passes with two 3T, two 3S, and the 3Lp. The 3T-3T was problematic every time that season.

 

[LarrySK8]

Well, skated well or not, and while Carmen was the best program she ever had, it is a forgettable program and IIRC did not have any really difficult turns or skating in it to connect her jumps and spins (all 3 turns and mohawks and crossovers!). Debi really could not win if Witt skated cleanly and did the same jump content as Debi.

 

[olympic]

Well, skated well or not, and while Carmen was the best program she ever had, it is a forgettable program and IIRC did not have any really difficult turns or skating in it to connect her jumps and spins (all 3 turns and mohawks and crossovers!). Debi really could not win if Witt skated cleanly and did the same jump content as Debi.

Witt was not doing a 3L that season and no way could she do a 3-3, so the jump content would not be the same and there was never going to be more than 4 triples for Witt

Witt’s Carmen was great for a professional show and may be memorable but it was not a good competitive program

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If Sally Stapleford felt that Debi Thomas was 'manufactured', then Witt was the ultimate production-line skater.

I forget if it was Debbi Wilkes or Robin Cousins who pointed this out in their respective autobiographies, but Katarina was the latest in a long list of Jutta Mueller pupils that reflected this teaching philosophy. Starting with Gabi Seyfert, Sonja Morgenstern, Marion Weber, Anett Pötzsch, Constanze Gensel, and ending with Witt, the jumping and spinning technique across the board was practically identical.

Even Witt's choice of music for her short program in 1988, was the best of Jerry Herman, music that Mueller had used for her previous students again and again. (Between 1981 and 1988, the positioning of the seven required elements was the same.) This approach was a formula Frau Mueller would later recycle and continue with Evelyn Grossmann and Simone Lang.

I guess what Katarina herself brought to the table was her cover girl looks, and a sexy self-aware persona, and this is something that could never be taught.

To be fair, Debi's choice of music for her free skate was in part a tribute to Linda Fratianne, one of her skating idols.

 

[bardtoob]

I forget if it was Debbi Wilkes or Robin Cousins who pointed this out in their respective autobiographies, but Katarina was the latest in a long list of Jutta Mueller pupils that reflected this teaching philosophy. Starting with Gabi Seyfert, Sonja Morgenstern, Marion Weber, Anett Pötzsch, Constanze Gensel, and ending with Witt, the jumping and spinning technique across the board was practically identical.

Even Witt's choice of music for her short program in 1988, was the best of Jerry Herman, music that Mueller had used for her previous students again and again. It was a formula Frau Mueller would later recycle and continue with Evelyn Grossmann and Simone Lang.

. . . I can't . . . . . . I can't believe that for Jutta Mueller, who typically choreographed programs to Broadway Musicals, and "INNOVATIVE PROGRAM" was a program to CARMEN ???

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

But I don't think anyone's arguing about her LP in Calgary, it's how she would have done had she skated clean. Thomas has said on multiple occasions that she gave up after two-footing the 3/3. I would say how her spins looked at Nationals would be far more telling of what she was capable of when invested. Honestly, I had never seen her skate as poorly as she did at the Olympics and then subsequently at Worlds, even when she had flawed programs in previous seasons, she would never just implode, but the last two LPs of her career, she did just that.

I recall Brian Boitano saying that if Debi had put the first mistake behind her and really fought for the rest of the performance, she could still have won. Easier said than done, because after two-footing the second triple toe loop, it definitely looked like the wind had been taken out of her sails.

Thomas had not been more physically prepared in her life. Usually, because of her intense college course load, she often had to throw together her training at the last second. Maybe the distraction of school stopped her from getting so nervous.

Such a shame, because given she finished 4th in the free (with technical merit scores high as 5.8) the judges were definitely leaving room for Debi to win.

 

[antmanb]

If the politics was divided along East/West lines, explain to me how there would be a 'fix' in for Witt would be feasible if only three of the judges were from the Eastern Bloc?

Did you read @Erin ’s post? She went into a great deal of detail explaining exactly how the voting in the bloc would need to change to see Thomas get the nod over Witt. Why you then brought up the men’s competition As a response to that makes no sense to me because the men’s competition was between two western skaters.

Why anyone would bother getting pissy about a hypothetical that never actually happened is pretty laughable.

In the real world Witt won and it wasn’t remotely questionable.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Did you read @Erin ’s post? She went into a great deal of detail explaining exactly how the voting in the bloc would need to change to see Thomas get the nod over Witt. Why you then brought up the men’s competition As a response to that makes no sense to me because the men’s competition was between two western skaters.

Why anyone would bother getting pissy about a hypothetical that never actually happened is pretty laughable.

In the real world Witt won and it wasn’t remotely questionable.

To be fair, if the Canadian judge had put Ito ahead of Witt in the free, Manley would have won.

 

[orbitz]

Witt was not doing a 3L that season and no way could she do a 3-3, so the jump content would not be the same and there was never going to be more than 4 triples for Witt

I think Witt was more than capable of learning and pulling off a 3-3 during her career if she had really needed one to win. Her opening 3toe was always a thing of beauty - good height, power, distance, and flow coming out of the jump - that it always looked to me like the 2nd part of the opening combo could've been a triple also. If Debbie had beaten Witt in 87 with a 3-3 and pulling off 3-3 easily in competitions leading up to Calgary then I think Witt and Frau Mueller would've pulled something out of their sleeves for the Games.

 

[olympic]

I think Witt was more than capable of learning and pulling off a 3-3 during her career if she had really needed one to win. Her opening 3toe was always a thing of beauty - good height, power, distance, and flow coming out of the jump - that it always looked to me like the 2nd part of the opening combo could've been a triple also. If Debbie had beaten Witt in 87 with a 3-3 and pulling off 3-3 easily in competitions leading up to Calgary then I think Witt and Frau Mueller would've pulled something out of their sleeves for the Games.

This is always a possibility. Witt was one of the most competitive people in skating, but she and Jutta Mueller also strategized on what was NOT necessary. For example: Witt was interviewed during the Albertville 92 OG and stated that back in 84, she and Frau Mueller knew Rosalynn Sumners was never going to attempt anything harder than a 3S or 3T, so they abandoned the 3F. Her words.

In that light, they were indeed aware in 88 of Debi's 3-3 in advance, but they didn't really try and up the tech side of Witt's skating. In fact, Witt's Carmen was a little less technically demanding than WSS: They front loaded the triples (switched her final jump from 3T to 2A) and while they left a planned 3L in the LP, it never materialized at any competition in the 87-88 season. So despite her competitiveness, nothing was going to happen beyond the 4 triples that we saw in the Calgary LP.

Did you read @Erin ’s post? She went into a great deal of detail explaining exactly how the voting in the bloc would need to change to see Thomas get the nod over Witt. Why you then brought up the men’s competition As a response to that makes no sense to me because the men’s competition was between two western skaters.

Why anyone would bother getting pissy about a hypothetical that never actually happened is pretty laughable.

In the real world Witt won and it wasn’t remotely questionable.

TBH, I didn't read the post as pissy and hypotheticals are part of the fun on this board in a sport we all love, especially during these times

I do beg to differ that Witt's win wasn't remotely questionable.

If Sally Stapleford felt that Debi Thomas was 'manufactured', then Witt was the ultimate production-line skater.

I forget if it was Debbi Wilkes or Robin Cousins who pointed this out in their respective autobiographies, but Katarina was the latest in a long list of Jutta Mueller pupils that reflected this teaching philosophy. Starting with Gabi Seyfert, Sonja Morgenstern, Marion Weber, Anett Pötzsch, Constanze Gensel, and ending with Witt, the jumping and spinning technique across the board was practically identical.

Even Witt's choice of music for her short program in 1988, was the best of Jerry Herman, music that Mueller had used for her previous students again and again. (Between 1981 and 1988, the positioning of the seven required elements was the same.) This approach was a formula Frau Mueller would later recycle and continue with Evelyn Grossmann and Simone Lang.

I guess what Katarina herself brought to the table was her cover girl looks, and a sexy self-aware persona, and this is something that could never be taught.

To be fair, Debi's choice of music for her free skate was in part a tribute to Linda Fratianne, one of her skating idols.

Well said.

 

[Coco]

Well, you should read @Erin 's post because it provided really thorough analysis.

 

[Maximillian]

Did you read @Erin ’s post? She went into a great deal of detail explaining exactly how the voting in the bloc would need to change to see Thomas get the nod over Witt. Why you then brought up the men’s competition As a response to that makes no sense to me because the men’s competition was between two western skaters.

Why anyone would bother getting pissy about a hypothetical that never actually happened is pretty laughable.

In the real world Witt won and it wasn’t remotely questionable.

We have fun. I did read Erin's post you mentioned and she wasn't arguing for an East/West divide among the judges, she put forth that the GDR and URS judges were firmly in Witt's pocket and the USA and JAP were firmly in Thomas. She then speculated based on SP scores that certain judges seemed to prefer Witt's skating based on the second mark, four of whom where from Western countries. This is not an argument for a 'bloc' along an East/West divide which if I understand you correctly is your argument, and what you think distinguishes Thomas v. Witt and Orser v. Boitano and I just don't think that their home country judge plus 1 (maybe) and then a pool of five primarily Western judges has anything to do with an East/West political battle.