I wouldn't mind doing a competition with those guys, Barna, Bowman, etc. 1991 Worlds?
What competition should FSU re-judge? Any interest?
- Thread starter alchemy void
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J
Jeschke
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@alchemy void how do we do the IJS events?
Will we have a tech panel too?
Or will we just decide by GOE?
Will we have a tech panel too?
Or will we just decide by GOE?
gkelly
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If you're scoring an IJS program by IJS, you could just use the official panel's calls.
Unless there are one or more posters who want to take on the task of determining levels as well as jump rotations etc.
Even more than with judging GOEs, it would be more appropriate to use the rules in effect at the time since the skaters had planned their programs to take advantage of those rules as best they could.
If you wanted to try to rescore an earlier IJS competition, or a 6.0 competition, by today's rules, then you would need a new tech panel to make the calls according to today's rules and also to come to some to some agreement in advance about how to handle differences in SP or well-balanced free skate elements between then and now, even if using today's level definitions.
Unless there are one or more posters who want to take on the task of determining levels as well as jump rotations etc.
Even more than with judging GOEs, it would be more appropriate to use the rules in effect at the time since the skaters had planned their programs to take advantage of those rules as best they could.
If you wanted to try to rescore an earlier IJS competition, or a 6.0 competition, by today's rules, then you would need a new tech panel to make the calls according to today's rules and also to come to some to some agreement in advance about how to handle differences in SP or well-balanced free skate elements between then and now, even if using today's level definitions.
@alchemy void already made the mention of potentially having a technical panel in an earlier post.
It doesn’t make sense to me to judge any competition by rules from a different generation. @Louis already mentioned how any 6.0 to IJS competition would likely have elements thrown out automatically, since skaters were doing 4 or 5 spins back then and could retry jumps as many times as they wanted within the span of the program.
If it’s a 6.0 to 6.0 competition and we aren’t using the rules from the year it took place, then are we just automatically giving all of the earlier-year skaters deductions for not having spins with certain number of revolutions? Or in 1990 with the men should we automatically deduct for those that had 3A+2T, 3A, 2A as their short program elements? In some other seasons, that’s literally 1.0 in deductions from the start. Same with IJS to IJS. There’s no logic in not applying the rules of the time because there will be a ton of inconsistencies. A triple jump out of steps wasn’t even required until 2003 for the ladies, so a double in any year prior (once the triple was made an option) was still legal. Etc.
1998 Worlds ladies is one of my favorite ‘mess’ competitions, and 1994 Olympics men probably would be fascinating too. I mentioned in my first post in the thread that I didn’t think re-scoring an entire set of athletes just to figure out who would’ve won between A or B is all that exciting. But if we are talking huge movement within the standings- I’m in!
ETA- I know the 6.0 to IJS thing has been tried and it’s interesting and all, but there are too many variables with it.
It doesn’t make sense to me to judge any competition by rules from a different generation. @Louis already mentioned how any 6.0 to IJS competition would likely have elements thrown out automatically, since skaters were doing 4 or 5 spins back then and could retry jumps as many times as they wanted within the span of the program.
If it’s a 6.0 to 6.0 competition and we aren’t using the rules from the year it took place, then are we just automatically giving all of the earlier-year skaters deductions for not having spins with certain number of revolutions? Or in 1990 with the men should we automatically deduct for those that had 3A+2T, 3A, 2A as their short program elements? In some other seasons, that’s literally 1.0 in deductions from the start. Same with IJS to IJS. There’s no logic in not applying the rules of the time because there will be a ton of inconsistencies. A triple jump out of steps wasn’t even required until 2003 for the ladies, so a double in any year prior (once the triple was made an option) was still legal. Etc.
1998 Worlds ladies is one of my favorite ‘mess’ competitions, and 1994 Olympics men probably would be fascinating too. I mentioned in my first post in the thread that I didn’t think re-scoring an entire set of athletes just to figure out who would’ve won between A or B is all that exciting. But if we are talking huge movement within the standings- I’m in!
ETA- I know the 6.0 to IJS thing has been tried and it’s interesting and all, but there are too many variables with it.
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gkelly
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I don't see much point in watching a 6.0 competition that most people are familiar with to focus on what the medal standings "should have been." I don't think it's possible for any of us to honestly rejudge a competition we already have opinions about.
And of course where decisions were close and ordinals were mixed, to some degree the official results were a matter of luck as to who was on the official panel at the time and who signs up for the FSU exercise.
Newer fans who aren't familiar with the older events or the older discussions could do a better job.
A competition focusing on performances that haven't been debated online multiple times over the years, preferably with less well known skaters, would be better for applying 6.0 thought processes to the skating on its own merits.
ETA:
If a full 6.0-era short program is available to watch in (often random) skate order, that might be better than free skates because it has probably been less discussed over the years and people are less likely to remember the SP standings.
From figures era, with or without short program, a free skate that hasn't been much discussed could work since the FS skate order would be heavily enough influenced by the figures standings as to have less correlation to the official panel's opinions of the free skating. And also the final results might have been significantly different from the free skating results. Which fans might be aware especially for the medalists for much-discussed controversial competitions but less so for events that got less attention in internet-era fan debates.
And of course where decisions were close and ordinals were mixed, to some degree the official results were a matter of luck as to who was on the official panel at the time and who signs up for the FSU exercise.
Newer fans who aren't familiar with the older events or the older discussions could do a better job.
A competition focusing on performances that haven't been debated online multiple times over the years, preferably with less well known skaters, would be better for applying 6.0 thought processes to the skating on its own merits.
ETA:
If a full 6.0-era short program is available to watch in (often random) skate order, that might be better than free skates because it has probably been less discussed over the years and people are less likely to remember the SP standings.
From figures era, with or without short program, a free skate that hasn't been much discussed could work since the FS skate order would be heavily enough influenced by the figures standings as to have less correlation to the official panel's opinions of the free skating. And also the final results might have been significantly different from the free skating results. Which fans might be aware especially for the medalists for much-discussed controversial competitions but less so for events that got less attention in internet-era fan debates.
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You're asking for a tremendous amount when you consider most members of FSU/interested in this project have been long-time skating fans and big enough fans that they've seen much of what is available on YouTube or probably had been available there or via FSVids at some point. It seems you either want A) a competition that hasn't seen the light of day in terms of video clips since it was first broadcast or B) a group of newer skating and that would need to quickly be taught the rules of 6.0 for whichever season is applied and then mark on that- as you mentioned. Not going to happen on FSU 
If there's a panel of 9 or however many and discussions were included afterwards, I don't see the problem in people already having a general idea of how they would place certain skaters. When I did the 1996 Worlds ladies thing, it started off as just a post about how clumped together I thought places 3-11 were and it turned into people offering a very wide set of opinions on the field and sharing their own scores. It was fascinating. It doesn't have to be an end-all 'this is how it SHOULD have been' type of thing as opposed to a fun game.
If there's a panel of 9 or however many and discussions were included afterwards, I don't see the problem in people already having a general idea of how they would place certain skaters. When I did the 1996 Worlds ladies thing, it started off as just a post about how clumped together I thought places 3-11 were and it turned into people offering a very wide set of opinions on the field and sharing their own scores. It was fascinating. It doesn't have to be an end-all 'this is how it SHOULD have been' type of thing as opposed to a fun game.
gkelly
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Do what you want.
I'm just saying from my own experience it has never been fun for me to try to rank skaters by 6.0 in a competition I already knew the official results of.
I'm just saying from my own experience it has never been fun for me to try to rank skaters by 6.0 in a competition I already knew the official results of.
alchemy void
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Catching up a bit...
I included 76 Olympics on the poll, but I think that's the furthest back I would want to go, in terms of judging guidelines.
Thanks for offering! How far back? My knowledge of skating pre-84 is quite poor, and I don't think I would be able to judge that era effectively.
I didn't include 91 Worlds in the poll, because that was one of our watch parties last month. Fun competition! Good pick.
Re-judge the 1970 World Championship Ladies Freeskate
1970 World Championships Ladies Long Program (Complete) (Enhanced)
Part of a Ice Skating Routine Documentation Project visit https://www.skatepedia.net to check out the work in processwww.youtube.com
With lots of comments about technique, style, costumes, and hair
I included 76 Olympics on the poll, but I think that's the furthest back I would want to go, in terms of judging guidelines.
Thanks for offering! How far back? My knowledge of skating pre-84 is quite poor, and I don't think I would be able to judge that era effectively.
I didn't include 91 Worlds in the poll, because that was one of our watch parties last month. Fun competition! Good pick.
bardtoob
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Re-judge the 1970 World Championship Ladies Freeskate
1970 World Championships Ladies Long Program (Complete) (Enhanced)
Part of a Ice Skating Routine Documentation Project visit https://www.skatepedia.net to check out the work in process
With lots of comments about technique, style, costumes, and hair
Just pretend you are judging a ladies competition with Gabby, Janet Lynn, and all the female skaters from She's a Good Skate, Charlie Brown.
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1996 Worlds ladies competition (Lu Chen vs Michelle Kwan was my favorite matchup.)
Any competition with Oksana Baiul would be interesting because there seems to be a lot of disagreement over her scores. So 1994 Olympics and 1993 Worlds ladies events.
I have to agree that using current IJS to score past events isn't a great idea. I remember TSL tried to use that approach to rescore 2014 Olympics ladies event and didn't feel the different scores accurately accounted for the significant changes to the judging system that were made since 2014.
Any competition with Oksana Baiul would be interesting because there seems to be a lot of disagreement over her scores. So 1994 Olympics and 1993 Worlds ladies events.
I have to agree that using current IJS to score past events isn't a great idea. I remember TSL tried to use that approach to rescore 2014 Olympics ladies event and didn't feel the different scores accurately accounted for the significant changes to the judging system that were made since 2014.
C
casken
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Yeah, I don't pretend that everyone will sit down with a deduction sheet and count every spin revolution, or that PCS/presentation marking would be any better than actual judging. It's just something to do for fun.
kwanatic
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Am I too late to sign up as a judge? 
The one my blog did for the Sochi Olympics was a lot of work but a lot of fun. I'd love to participate if there's still room
I wouldn't mind doing 6.0 competitions but, considering my brain has been running off of IJS for the past 15+ years, it's kind of difficult to turn it all the way off and step back into 6.0 scoring. It's also interesting to point out that at least from a computation standpoint, having set values for elements does lend itself to fairer judging especially if you are working with a group of at least semi-objective judges, which is rarely the case with actual judging nowadays. In my project, I asked the judges to make notes whenever they assigned GOE to an element--basically tell me how you came to this score. The goal was to get rid of "corridor scoring" and have each judge really look at the elements and components and judge them rather than just give a knee-jerk reaction score which is what most judges do now in large part b/c they already know what range a skater falls into when it comes to those scores, but also because they don't have time to sit and evaluate each element. By having my judges explain their scores I feel as though it forced more objectivity in the scoring for most of the participants which ultimately led to a fairer outcome overall.
Just my two cents
I vote we re-judge 2018 Worlds (ladies event). I thought the scoring in that competition was rather slanted. There have be some competitions where I felt someone was held up only to re-score it and see that I actually agreed with the judges (2013 nationals comes to mind). I'd like to pick apart 2018 worlds to see what a different panel comes up with.
@alchemy void I've still got my old Excel score sheets buried somewhere on my laptop. If you'd like to use them let me know
The one my blog did for the Sochi Olympics was a lot of work but a lot of fun. I'd love to participate if there's still room
I wouldn't mind doing 6.0 competitions but, considering my brain has been running off of IJS for the past 15+ years, it's kind of difficult to turn it all the way off and step back into 6.0 scoring. It's also interesting to point out that at least from a computation standpoint, having set values for elements does lend itself to fairer judging especially if you are working with a group of at least semi-objective judges, which is rarely the case with actual judging nowadays. In my project, I asked the judges to make notes whenever they assigned GOE to an element--basically tell me how you came to this score. The goal was to get rid of "corridor scoring" and have each judge really look at the elements and components and judge them rather than just give a knee-jerk reaction score which is what most judges do now in large part b/c they already know what range a skater falls into when it comes to those scores, but also because they don't have time to sit and evaluate each element. By having my judges explain their scores I feel as though it forced more objectivity in the scoring for most of the participants which ultimately led to a fairer outcome overall.
Just my two cents
I vote we re-judge 2018 Worlds (ladies event). I thought the scoring in that competition was rather slanted. There have be some competitions where I felt someone was held up only to re-score it and see that I actually agreed with the judges (2013 nationals comes to mind). I'd like to pick apart 2018 worlds to see what a different panel comes up with.
@alchemy void I've still got my old Excel score sheets buried somewhere on my laptop. If you'd like to use them let me know
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If it is IJS event, what about 2013 Worlds men's event? That could be interesting because I recall the arguments around Denis Ten vs Patrick Chan.
1988 Olympics ladies event, where Midori outjumped everyone.
Btw, how will figures factor into these rescoring for older events? Or will only the technical and free skates be rejudged?
1988 Olympics ladies event, where Midori outjumped everyone.
Btw, how will figures factor into these rescoring for older events? Or will only the technical and free skates be rejudged?
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VGThuy
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I’d love to be a judge for any event that we do.
rfisher
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Will the judges be known? Just so those of us who are going to disagree and scream 
and wuzrobbed for our favorite skaters will know to yell at. 
and wuzrobbed for our favorite skaters will know to yell at.
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Jeschke
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I bet you will even identify 1 or 2 just by scores/placementWill the judges be known? Just so those of us who are going to disagree and scream
Kateri
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I vote @misskarne for technical controller. Shin Amano who? Seriously though, I would appreciate her rigour!
C
casken
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If I'm judging ice dance I'm going full Sharon Rogers.I bet you will even identify 1 or 2 just by scores/placement
VGThuy
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I’m going to be arbitrary and capricious.
misskarne
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