USFS Announces Men's Pairs and Ice Dance Assignments for 2020 Four Continents and Worlds

[aftershocks]

I have to agree with the absurdity of sending C-G&L to Worlds over C&J, especially since C&J won the free skate. I am afraid we are looking at only one pair again next year since the Knierems tend to implode on one program per competition and C-G&L have been having difficulties all season.

Wishful thinking on your part, maybe.

It was surely not an easy decision by the U.S. fed selection committee. It would have been nice to be a fly-on-the-wall in the selection committee room.

The good thing IMO is that Ash/Timothy (and previously Deanna/Nate) pairing and lighting a fire among the mix of U.S. pairs gave an important spark of energy and competitiveness to the pairs division in the U.S. This was especially true at a time when top U.S. pairs, Knierims and Denney/Frazier were rebounding from serious illness and career-threatening injury.

It might behoove fans to stop over-reacting to everything that happened five minutes ago for skaters, and to take a longer view, based on a more detailed knowledge of the U.S. pairs discipline. Apparently, that's a big ask.

Calalang/Johnson are a wonderful team with dynamite potential. They looked good as partners right off the bat last season! It's so cool what they have been accomplishing this season, and not just at U.S. Nationals. But that was a great moment in their U.S. Nats fp because it is further proof of the richness and increasing strength of the U.S. pairs discipline. Now all of you new C/J stans and aficionados, please do keep supporting them and loving them, come rain or come shine! And set your viewing schedule to be sure and root for them at 4CCs unconditionally!

I don't always agree with U.S. fed's decisions and management style, but I believe U.S. authorities are attempting to be fair, while at the same time trying to make the best strategic decisions. It shouldn't be a surprise that the podium victors differ a bit from those assigned to Worlds, particularly under the circumstances of the current ISU competition structure, starting order rules, scoring politics, and the limitation of U.S. pairs having only two spots for Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

It's possible USFS said we're sending you to Worlds but no way you can go to 4CCs that but doesn't seem right. Why not list them as an alternate for 4CCs even if you are going to send teams 1-3 based on results at Nats?

You woulda had to be in the selection committee room or at least a fly-on-the-wall to have an inkling.

 

[MacMadame]

You do realize that what I wrote was a joke, don't you?

A lot of people don't seem to understand the selection process, so... No.

 

[Rogue]

Wishful thinking on your part, maybe.

I would categorize it more as fearful thinking. I certainly have no wish for the US to be limited to one pair again. Wishful thinking would be a top 7 finish for both US pairs to meet that magical number 13 and 3 U.S. pairs in 2021.

 

[Pastilage]

Cain-Gribble/LeDuc are perfectly capable of imploding. All he has to do is drop her on her head again, or fail to get a lift up. I can't watch them anymore because their lifts scare me.

I feel EXACTLY the same way. Those last 2 lifts at Nationals were terrifying. Really dangerous and quite frankly someone should stop them. On both lifts she swung so wildly into the air I thought she would bring them both down.

 

[aftershocks]

I would categorize it more as fearful thinking. I certainly have no wish for the US to be limited to one pair again. Wishful thinking would be a top 7 finish for both US pairs to meet that magical number 13 and 3 U.S. pairs in 2021.

Sure, but I have no doubt there are those who dislike certain skaters and therefore engage in negative thoughts against such skaters performing well. In that case, 'wishing they would fail,' or at least slip-up because ice is slippery.

I'm glad to hear you harbor only 'fearful thinking,' when it comes to believing in Ash/Timothy's abilities to overcome the burden of expectations and truly shine the way they can and have done previously. I hope you will be able to make an attempt to manage your fears. Maybe it might help to internalize the wise observation that FEAR equates to False Evidence Appearing Real.

Three pairs eventually for the U.S. at Worlds and Olympics is not out of the realm of possibility. It has happened in the past, and it can surely happen again, albeit probably not this year. Let's be hopeful that it might happen again soon.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I will be watching the World Championships very closely, and it could end up being very messy for US Skating in pairs.

Sometimes results at the national championships are worth a lot in the BOW scheme of things. At other times, not at all.

Much as the association would like to predict the outcome in Montreal by choosing certain teams or athletes over others, in the end what happens at that event writes the actual story.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I feel EXACTLY the same way. Those last 2 lifts at Nationals were terrifying. Really dangerous and quite frankly someone should stop them. On both lifts she swung so wildly into the air I thought she would bring them both down.

Tim may be built like the strong man at the circus. But man, Ashley is way too friggin' tall for him.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It's like .... implosion is always possible. It can happen to anyone. We kind of saw that last week with Kevin Aymoz.

The bottom line is, I don't really think this U.S. pairs decision was about the risk of not making the free skate. Because according to the numbers, all of the contending U.S. pairs should theoretically easily have made the free skate. And the chances of any of the contending U.S. pairs imploding were arguably about equal.

Who would have guessed that Haven and Brandon wouldn't make the cut in Helsinki, though. Or worse, not even make the podium in Greensboro after a great Grand Prix season. I would have picked them over Ashley and Tim for Montreal.

I kind of feel sorry for Jessica and Brian, as well as Tomoki in the men's event. They've really built such momentum this season, and all things considered, Four Continents is such a booby prize.

 

[olympic]

USFigureSkating.org has a press release with the 2020 Four Continents and Worlds assignments posted under tbe "News" tab. The Ladies assignments were announced previously, so I'm not typing them out here. They are included in the new press release.

Men to Worlds: Chen, Brown, Zhou
Alternates in order: Hiwatashi, Torgashev, Pulkinen

Men to Four Continents: Brown, Hiwatashi, Pulkinen (Torgashev to Jr Worlds selection camp)
Alternates in order: Krasnozhon

Pairs to Worlds: Knierims, Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
Alternates in order: Calalang/Johnson, Kayne/O'Shea, Denney/Frazier

Pairs to Four Continents: Knierims, Calalang/Johnson, Kayne/O'Shea
Alternates in order: Denney/Frazier, Lu/Mitrofanov, Serafini/Tran

Ice Dancers to Worlds:
Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donahue, Hawayek/Baker
Alternates in order: Carreira/Ponomarenko, Green/Parsons, McNamara/Carpenter

Ice Dancers to Four Continents: Same as Worlds assignments

Going down the list -

Men: The selection for Worlds is correct - Zhou demonstrated that he can skate adequately immediately after the messy Fall season that he had. He was edged out by Hiwatashi at Nationals but that is balanced out by Zhou's score at the International Classic, his LP at JO and his World's Bronze Medal

I am a little flummoxed by the 4CC selection. I would think Zhou would want to go and solidify his programs prior to Worlds, but arguments that he needs to acclimate to his new training environment make sense. Also, Torgashev makes more sense to me for 4CCs than Pulkinen, just because I think he should be rewarded for the big step-up this year, but I also understand the USFSA strategy of getting everyone possible an assignment for points

Ladies: No issue

Ice Dance: No issue, but maybe H/D should stay home from 4CCs and find another FD . It would also give one of the lower teams a shot at something post-Nationals.

Pairs: This process was screwy. I understand that CG/L have the highest mean score of all US pairs internationally, and but for the DS in the SP here, their score would have been very close to K/O, but their strength has been to build later in the season. Their performance at Nationals killed that momentum. I personally would have CG/L competing head-to-head at 4CCs agains C/J (Go Russia on them), and whoever is better, send to Worlds. I have no opinion on whether Knierims should compete at 4CCs: They have been together so long, they either got it or don't. K/O are the obvious other choices for 4CCs.

 

[Colonel Green]

I am a little flummoxed by the 4CC selection. I would think Zhou would want to go and solidify his programs prior to Worlds, but arguments that he needs to acclimate to his new training environment make sense. Also, Torgashev makes more sense to me for 4CCs than Pulkinen, just because I think he should be rewarded for the big step-up this year, but I also understand the USFSA strategy of getting everyone possible an assignment for points

For Zhou I'd say it's less about his training environment than his being best-served by just focusing on his training to build stamina (and presumably try to reintroduce more jumps?) by Worlds. The changeover from US Nationals to 4CC can be draining for any athlete, let alone one who has only been back training for four weeks.

My guess for Torgashev is that the USFS wants him to focus exclusively on doing as well at Junior Worlds as possible, since he's kind of the USA's only hope there.

 

[aftershocks]

I will be watching the World Championships very closely, and it could end up being very messy for US Skating in pairs.

Sometimes results at the national championships are worth a lot in the BOW scheme of things. At other times, not at all.

Much as the association would like to predict the outcome in Montreal by choosing certain teams or athletes over others, in the end what happens at that event writes the actual story.

Under the current competition structure, it's always a difficult decision to make when a lot of talented teams (with ups and downs) are competing for only two Worlds spots. Take a listen to the perceptive commentary by Justin & Erin (on Justin Laem's video podcast) that I linked in U.S. pairs and Canadian pairs threads. They recorded their thoughts prior to the assignments being announced by U.S. fed.

I think you are wrong about 'the association liking to predict outcomes.' They actually have to make tough decisions that will never make everyone happy. But someone has to decide, based upon whatever criteria/guidelines that have been established (albeit political factors are always prevalent).

Your comment that "it could end up being very messy for U.S. pairs" is always a possibility, no matter who was assigned to Worlds. Obviously, you are also making a prediction and a negative one at that. I prefer to be more positive and supportive. Constant negativity only breeds discontent and perpetual bad attitudes and poor outlooks. Some fans don't seem to realize that athletes are people too with human failings. Moreover, athletes work hard to overcome the challenges they face. If they don't succeed, the best of them try and try again. I applaud our U.S. pairs athletes for their courage and for never giving up on their dreams.

 

[aftershocks]

Who would have guessed that Haven and Brandon wouldn't make the cut in Helsinki, though. Or worse, not even make the podium in Greensboro after a great Grand Prix season. I would have picked them over Ashley and Tim for Montreal.

Well, Haven/Brandon didn't have great performances at Nationals the year they won (2017), nor did they perform well at Nationals this year. In 2017, Haven was still not fully recovered from rehab on her knee, and her confidence on jumps was shot. In their comeback season (2016-2017), they did show sparks of their former selves and they grabbed a silver medal at SA.

Sadly and coincidentally, Alexa Scimeca-Knierim was coming back from a life-threatening illness the same season that Haven was coming back from a career-threatening knee injury. The Knierims sat out 2017 Nationals as they were still building their strength. Both the Knierims and Haven/Brandon went to Helsinki Worlds. Perhaps no one could predict H&B not performing well in the sp and thus not moving on to the fp. However, it was clear that Haven was still struggling a bit in her injury comeback, in particular this was visible on the jumping passes. She is still in the process of trying to regain confidence on landing those jumps without fear and doubt. Haven's difficulties necessarily have impacted Brandon as well, since they need to jump in sync. Regarding the problematic throw at Helsinki Worlds, it appeared to me that Brandon was too full of adrenaline (perhaps compensating for nerves), which is apparently the same thing that happened on their sp throw at recent U.S. Nationals.

As much as I love Haven & Brandon, the fact they won two medals on the GP does not overcome their poor performances at U.S. Nationals. It appears to me that they may be distracted by the unfortunate problems at their rink. They have a great fp this season, so I really feel sorry for them about the current turn-of-events. I hope they can regroup during the off-season, continue to work on their jump weaknesses, and recover their lost momentum.

 

[LilJen]

My browser originally showed the first few words of the thread title, so I was getting kind of excited about mens' pairs events. . .

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

After reading some of the reasoned and articulate responses to my posts about the pairs' selection process, thanks for that. As for US Skating, the potential is there. It's just unfortunate their top teams are so nervous and inconsistent during competition.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

With the likelihood of thirty teams going to Canada, to the US pairs on Team Montreal:

1. Drill those triples
2. Drill those throws
3. Drill those lifts
4. Do multiple run throughs and competition simulations every day

 

[olympic]

^Didn't Oleg Vasiliev tell TSL (back in the days of Jenny Kirk) that the Chinese practice on average 50 throws daily? I hope I got that no. right but it was high. IIRC, it was told as if Chinese daily training was secretive.

At any rate, just one more thing to add to the selection issue: CG/L did not fall in either program and while there were subpar elements in the LP, I got the impression that they were gutting it out and not giving up on the program / not letting anything go. I don't think they popped any jumps either. That may have played a role in the minds of the USFSA officials ....

 

[her grace]

I thought I'd run the selection criteria for the Pulkinen v. Krasnozhon 4CC selection.

Pulkinen WS 23, SB 21
Krasnozhon WS 28, SB 32

Tier 1
– 2020 U.S. championships - Krasnozhon 6th, Pulkinen 7th
– 2020 Grand Prix final - both N/A
– 2019 World championships - both N/A

most important tier, edge to Krasnozhon

Tier 2
– 2019 Grand Prix Series competitions - Krasnozhon 10th at RC, 9th at SA; Pulkinen 4th at SC, 8th at COC
– 2019 Four Continents championships - N/A for both

edge to Pulkinen


Tier 3
– 2019 Challenger Series events and other senior international competitions - (CS) Krasnozhon 4th at US Classic, 9th at Golden Spin; Pulkinen 6th at Golden Spin, 5th at Autumn Classic
– 2019 U.S. championships - Krasnozhon 5th, Pulkinen 12th
– 2019 World Junior championships - Krasnozhon 11th, Pulkinen 8th
– 2019 Junior Grand Prix final - Kras was SR last season; Pulkinen 5th

Pulkinen won one head-to-head at Golden Spin this season and one last season at jr. worlds, Krasnozhon won one head-to-head at 2019 nationals. Both had high finishes at one Sr. B.

 

[Dobre]

I thought I'd run the selection criteria for the Pulkinen v. Krasnozhon 4CC selection.

Thank you for that. Yes, very close. This one surprised me. I'm sure there's a lot of hope attached to that SC score for Camden. (Which I struggle with because based on the men's practice I saw at SC, it was such a miracle that he skated so well). Still this season has been a step up for both Alexei & Camden. Alexei looking healthy and more himself, with a good competition at the U.S. Classic and the quad loop stood up at Nationals. Camden getting that quad toe and actually delivering it in multiple events this season. Still, they're pretty close. And when they're off, they're off. I was surprised the Nationals placement didn't decide it. I love Camden's skating & I'm happy for him. He has an argument for the berth. I just wouldn't want Alexei to get passed over based on lack of citizenship. They can both use the experience.

 

[acraven]

I wonder whether it came down to something like this: Camden could certainly have a better day, jump-wise. Alexei isn't suddenly going to have a better day, PCS-wise.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I wonder whether it came down to something like this: Camden could certainly have a better day, jump-wise. Alexei isn't suddenly going to have a better day, PCS-wise.

He's certainly not going to, if he doesn't have a chance to skate: it usually takes at least a competition or two after scoring high TES to get the PCS. Even Zagitova had to wait until the Olympics before crossing into the 9's in PCS, after two struggling GP SP's in which she scored in the 7's and scored high 8's in the FS, and then at GPF 2017, where she scored high 8's in both programs.

 

[jlai]

I wonder whether it came down to something like this: Camden could certainly have a better day, jump-wise. Alexei isn't suddenly going to have a better day, PCS-wise.

I think it comes down to Camden having a quad and Alexei doesn't. Without a high tes, PCS won't go up, the way judges are tying pcs to tes...

 

[acraven]

Alexei's PCS issue isn't just a matter of quads. He's improving, but there's more ground to cover.

 

[jlai]

Alexei's PCS issue isn't just a matter of quads. He's improving, but there's more ground to cover.

Yeah, but he quads like Zhou I'm sure the PCS will rise to Samarin's level.

I mean, ALexei isn't great in his basics, but he is no worse than some of the other guys above him in world rankings. I'm not sure he is worse than Zhou on a good day. That said I can't gauge speed on video.

 

[Marco]

Yeah, but he quads like Zhou I'm sure the PCS will rise to Samarin's level.

Mean but true

 

[olympic]

^I believe Alexei was coached by Mishin as a young boy in Russia. His consistent and great jumping technique reflects that. I do appreciate that he is skating with more creativity and a focus on the 2nd mark this season, but his spins really need work, as do almost all the nuances of his skating outside of the jumps.