USFS Announces Men's Pairs and Ice Dance Assignments for 2020 Four Continents and Worlds

[acraven]

USFigureSkating.org has a press release with the 2020 Four Continents and Worlds assignments posted under tbe "News" tab. The Ladies assignments were announced previously, so I'm not typing them out here. They are included in the new press release.

Men to Worlds: Chen, Brown, Zhou
Alternates in order: Hiwatashi, Torgashev, Pulkinen

Men to Four Continents: Brown, Hiwatashi, Pulkinen (Torgashev to Jr Worlds selection camp)
Alternates in order: Krasnozhon

Pairs to Worlds: Knierims, Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
Alternates in order: Calalang/Johnson, Kayne/O'Shea, Denney/Frazier

Pairs to Four Continents: Knierims, Calalang/Johnson, Kayne/O'Shea
Alternates in order: Denney/Frazier, Lu/Mitrofanov, Serafini/Tran

Ice Dancers to Worlds:
Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donahue, Hawayek/Baker
Alternates in order: Carreira/Ponomarenko, Green/Parsons, McNamara/Carpenter

Ice Dancers to Four Continents: Same as Worlds assignments

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks for starting a new thread. Some conversations about these assignments were already started in men's and pairs thread...

 

[thvu]

Reposting in this thread because I still feel a certain way about the decision:

That’s some bullshit. So the USFS wants to send a pair to worlds with lifts so bad that even Nationals judges are giving negative GOE. The Gribbles are great singles skaters, have great skating skills, but their pairs skills are still terrible.

I know USFS never disappoints with its political decisions, but this one is disgusting and gross. The amount of politiking the Cains did must have been enormous.

 

[casken]

Terrible, but totally predictable decision regarding pairs knowing the USFSA.

How convenient C/L don't even have to do 4CC and have to worry about another weak skate to make the USFSA's decision look even worse than it is.

 

[kwanfan1818]

USFS could send C-G/L to Challenge Cup if they want them to get mileage before Worlds.

 

[Stephanie]

Terrible, but totally predictable decision regarding pairs knowing the USFSA.

How convenient C/L don't even have to do 4CC and have to worry about another weak skate to make the USFSA's decision look even worse than it is.

If C/L were going to 4CC's as well then Kayne/O'Shea would get nothing.

 

[Jammers]

Wtf C/L to Worlds? Am i missing something are they multiple time World medalists? C/J beat them fair and square and i believe have more potential but this is not how you build up your pairs division. And why no Vincent at 4CC but he's going to Worlds? At least that makes sense since he's a World medalist and also an Olympian. And Camden over Alexi and Andrew for 4CC despite finishing behind them both? What are they smoking?

 

[haribobo]

Andrew is still on their junior track...the junior worlds selection camp is this week so they probably figured then sending him to 4cc AND junior worlds would be too much.

Alexei is just not very loved right now by USFS, unfortunately. He was 10th and 9th at his GP's and then 9th at Golden Spin. Camden was 8th and 4th at his GP's and 6th at Golden Spin. What can ya do...

 

[Wyliefan]

Poor Alexei -- I'm a Camden fan, but that just doesn't seem fair. He did finish ahead of Camden. What would they lose by letting him have a 4CC spot?

 

[jlai]

Poor Alexei -- I'm a Camden fan, but that just doesn't seem fair. He did finish ahead of Camden. What would they lose by letting him have a 4CC spot?

Looking at the scores, Camden and Alexei were within 5 points of each other. I guess in close calls (like in Vincent vs. Tomoki), they did look at international results and let them be a tiebreak of sorts. I don't necessarily like this but I can see how this was decided. Also, Alexei hasn't had a rotated quad and I think that also hurts

So the only one WTF for me is the pairs decision.

 

[Colonel Green]

And why no Vincent at 4CC but he's going to Worlds?

I imagine he’d prefer to have more time to just train and improve his stamina/tech before Worlds.

 

[jlai]

I think it was more USFSA telling Zhou to stay home and train.

I just went over the head to head competitions these season. Tomoki and Alexei did have the poorest head to head this season. Interestingly, Camden hardly had any head to head as he was with a US teammate only in Golden Spin, in which he came out ahead of Alexei; the other competitions he was the only US entry (nice!). Brown came out ahead on all head to head competitions against Tomoki, Camden and Alexei, which means that he would have been sent if he placed 4th and Tomoki, Camden or Alexei were third. Ah, maybe that's the whole point of going to Golden Spin!

 

[VGThuy]

I think it’s smarter to let Vincent quitely train and acclimate to his new training base in Canada (with monitoring). He’s no stranger to international competition and we know how well he can do when prepared and ready, so let him quietly work on being as prepared and ready as possible. He did quite amazing for someone who had like what 3-4 weeks on ice training before Nationals. It’s not like Tomoki blew him away there and again, their base values were similar.

 

[jlai]

Ok, now pairs head to head:
Cain-Gribble/Leduc ahead of Calalang/Johnson and Kayne/O'Shea in US Classic, and ahead of Kayne /O'SHea in Gold Spin too, but Calalang/Johnson was ahead of CG/L in Skate America. Knierim/Knierim was ahead of C/J in Skate Canada and nationals. K/O ahead of Knierims in NHK.

So basically a good case for CG/L to be sent in lieu of K/O (had they placed second) but not C/J.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Last season at Worlds, there were 19 Pairs, and they all made the FS. Had it been 16, if the scores were the same, the cut-off would have been 53.16. And this was the first year under the -5/+5 scale.

When D/F didn't make the FS in 2017, there were 29 Pairs, and the cut-off was 62.03. (D/F scored 56.23.) In 2016, there were 22 Pairs, and the cut-off was 52.78. In 2015, there were 19 Pairs, and the cut-off was 46.69. In 2014, there were 23 Pairs, and the cut-off was 51.38.

2017 was an outlier.

 

[VGThuy]

Last season at Worlds, there were 19 Pairs, and they all made the FS. Had it been 16, if the scores were the same, the cut-off would have been 53.16. And this was the first year under the -5/+5 scale.

When D/F didn't make the FS in 2017, there were 29 Pairs, and the cut-off was 62.03. (D/F scored 56.23.) In 2016, there were 22 Pairs, and the cut-off was 52.78. In 2015, there were 19 Pairs, and the cut-off was 46.69. In 2014, there were 23 Pairs, and the cut-off was 51.38.

2017 was an outlier.

Good point. I think because of bad timing and the fact that the Olympics went by different quotas and although USFS did enough to qualify 2 spots for Worlds, it didn't do so at the Olympics, D/F got a lot of crap when timing simply wasn't on their side. I mean they also probably could have skated better too like on the level of their silver medal winning Skate America performance that same season but we know they're fragile with her injury.

 

[Rogue]

I have to agree with the absurdity of sending C-G&L to Worlds over C&J, especially since C&J won the free skate. I am afraid we are looking at only one pair again next year since the Knierems tend to implode on one program per competition and C-G&L have been having difficulties all season.

 

[kwanfan1818]

C/J's SP scores internationally have been:

• Skate America: 61.27 (SO: 2nd skating after Jones/Boyadji:47.92)
• Skate Canada: 62.54 (SO: 2nd after Ilyushechkina/Bilodeau, 68.62)
• Warsaw Cup: 68.20 (SO: 1st)

The first two scores were solidly in the low 60's, even though they biffed three elements at SA and two at SC. (They had -.14 on the spin at Warsaw Cup.)

Opening with a world class twist -- called L4 twice, L3 once -- may be setting the stage for themselves.

 

[clairecloutier]

ISU season's-best pairs SP list: http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2019-20/sbtspsp.htm

Among teams currently confirmed to compete at Worlds, Calalang/Johnson's SB score is 11th. (If Ilyushechkina/Bilodeau are selected, C/J would be 12th.) And that is with Cain-Gribble/LeDuc still included. If CG/LD were not going to Worlds and C/J were going instead, then C/J would have entered Worlds with either the 10th- or 11th-best season's-best SP score.

Looking at that season's-best list, you have to go really far down the list to find the 20th-best SP score among teams currently confirmed to compete at Worlds. A LOT of the teams on this list won't be at Worlds.

With 20 teams qualifying to the free skate, and a generally much lower level of competition than in 2017, there is simply no reason to think that any of the U.S. pairs wouldn't have qualified. They would have had to implode not to.

 

[centerpt1]

Cain-Gribble/LeDuc are perfectly capable of imploding. All he has to do is drop her on her head again, or fail to get a lift up. I can't watch them anymore because their lifts scare me.

 

[clairecloutier]

It's like .... implosion is always possible. It can happen to anyone. We kind of saw that last week with Kevin Aymoz.

The bottom line is, I don't really think this U.S. pairs decision was about the risk of not making the free skate. Because according to the numbers, all of the contending U.S. pairs should theoretically easily have made the free skate. And the chances of any of the contending U.S. pairs imploding were arguably about equal.

 

[MacMadame]

How convenient C/L don't even have to do 4CC and have to worry about another weak skate to make the USFSA's decision look even worse than it is.

The way USFS does assignments, there's a reasonable chance C-G/L were offered 4CC and turned it down.

 

[Vagabond]

The way USFS does assignments, there's a reasonable chance C-G/L were offered 4CC and turned it down.

And given an assignment to Worlds instead.

 

[mattiecat13]

I feel for C/J that they don't get to go to Worlds, however, I can see USFS's point. They don't want a repeat of sending an untested second team and risk them not qualifying for the long or finishing very low in the standings. The Knierims haven't performed well at Worlds (their placement has dropped each time they've competed there) and can't be trusted not to implode there, whereas C-G/L (along with the Knierims) should be able to finish high enough to get two spots for next season.

 

[Jammers]

I feel for C/J that they don't get to go to Worlds, however, I can see USFS's point. They don't want a repeat of sending an untested second team and risk them not qualifying for the long or finishing very low in the standings. The Knierims haven't performed well at Worlds (their placement has dropped each time they've competed there) and can't be trusted not to implode there, whereas C-G/L (along with the Knierims) should be able to finish high enough to get two spots for next season.

Pairs right now is weaker then it has been for years and C/J would have to skate the worse they ever have not to make the FS. This isn't2017 when the qualifying score to get to the FS was over 62. Plus 20 teams now move to the FS not 16 like it was in 2017 and 2018.

 

[MacMadame]

And given an assignment to Worlds instead.

I don't think it was instead. I think there is a good chance they were offered both and accepted Worlds but turned down 4CCs. I say that because they aren't listed as alternatives for 4CCs.

It's possible USFS said we're sending you to Worlds but no way you can go to 4CCs that but doesn't seem right. Why not list them as an alternate for 4CCs even if you are going to send teams 1-3 based on results at Nats?

 

[Dobre]

Is there some reason people above are only listing this season's results for comparisons?

As far as I've heard, they still count last year's Nationals, Junior Worlds, and Worlds results in the criteria, right? And I'm not clear what they do with 4CCs as it used to be only a win that was helpful, but I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't think it was instead.

You do realize that what I wrote was a joke, don't you?

 

[jlai]

Is there some reason people above are only listing this season's results for comparisons?

As far as I've heard, they still count last year's Nationals, Junior Worlds, and Worlds results in the criteria, right? And I'm not clear what they do with 4CCs as it used to be only a win that was helpful, but I'm not sure that is the case anymore.

I know last season counts, but that's the part people are getting angry about, I thought (reputation points). Could be wrong...

 

[Dobre]

I know last season counts, but that's the part people are getting angry about, I thought (reputation points). Could be wrong...

Result points. I just think you have to be practical. How did Cain & Le Duc get selected? Most likely they got selected because #1 at U.S. Nationals, top 10 at Worlds, and the highest U.S. finish at 4CCs last year were factored in. You can argue that this does not in any way make it likely that she is gonna land that throw. (I really don't think she will). But it's pretty easy to see how those results on paper could outbalance a strong Nationals and Challenger event for Calalang & Johnson or a strong Nationals for Kayne & O'Shea--when you factor in the other results those teams have had. I still think those teams had a chance, but they probably needed a win. We knew they needed to do more than a team like the Knierems or Denney & Frazier because C&J and K&O's results within the past calendar year back through last year's Nationals haven't been up there in strong fields. It's especially harsh in pairs because it wouldn't be that hard for us to wind up back at 1 team next season so I do really feel for the pair fans; but honestly, I think if any U.S. pair team steps up and proves they can really compete with the top international pairs, USFS will be 100% behind them. It's gonna take more than a medal at U.S. Nationals, but really, you don't have to do it at Worlds. Go out and do it at 4CCs! Anywhere will do.